Atheist Discussion Topic: How did you determine your deity is the moral one instead of the devil?

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Is divine command theory a moral system?
Situation: Two people are disagreeing with the morality of a situation. How do they determine who has the better moral path when one assesses their morals through social interactions and understandings of reality to make predictions on what their actions will accomplish in the future while the other relies on their religious texts that claims these actions are the correct path because their deity addressed this issue.

Assertions about the religion: It claims that all people have a broken moral compass and require a deity to direct them to the correct moral pathway.

The first person wonders how the religious person decided to conclude that their deity was the moral one over anyone or anything else. Person B used their own moral compass to assess that their deity was the correct path and their devil was not the correct path. So in that process, she is applying her own moral compass to make a decision on where to go to for moral issues. However, since she is choosing to throw out her moral decision making ability and go by this deity’s wishes, she is no longer acting as a moral agent. This is not to say she is acting immorally, just that she is no longer applying her ability to think about the moral issues and assess her choices as moral or not. She is now acting as the dog sitting on the couch because her master told her to sit on the couch, but she does not know why she should be sitting on the couch. She’s only acting as a robot and not using her moral thinking process to assess her actions to see if they are actually good or bad. If her deity tells her to do something that she believes is immoral, she will still have to suspend her moral thought process and just take that path. Also, she may evaluate the situation and still follow what her deity told her to do, this becomes just a waste of time exercise since she is just going to do what her deity tells her to do even if she believes that the action is a horribly immoral action to take.

We have to understand why a path is right or wrong before taking that pathway, otherwise we are suspending our abilities to think about moral issues and are no longer acting as a moral agent, but only acting as a trained pet.

We can be wrong on our moral conclusions but if we do not know that we are wrong in this process, how can we know otherwise? This is why we do not hold people morally culpable for results of choices they made where they were, in good faith, acting in the best way that they knew how. But her deity would, if only for not following it’s commandments. To operate that way removes her humanity, her ability to apply her moral understanding to the situation; she is just a trained pet with no understanding of what actually is moral or not.

Since we do not have a complete consensus on moral issues, this is what you would expect from an evolutionary guided natural world instead of a supernaturally guided world; where there is a sense of general fairness and it will manifest differently from culture to culture. What’s the point of having the capacity to evaluate moral issues if all you have to do is follow the dear leader’s rules? You are not a moral agent if your deity tells you to do something and you suspend your moral assessment of that action to understand if it is actually good or bad. You should always be evaluating what you are being told to do instead of just following orders without question. Divine command theory is inherently immoral because of this result.
 
Well, The sort of divine command theory that your proposing does not fit with Catholicism. So the question of whether or not it is immoral is a non sequitur for Catholicism.
 
Well, The sort of divine command theory that your proposing does not fit with Catholicism. So the question of whether or not it is immoral is a non sequitur for Catholicism.
Right.
It proposes another of the endless fundamentalist straw men:
while the other relies on their religious texts that claims these actions are the correct path because their deity addressed this issue.
That’s not what Catholics believe.
The OP question is a non-starter.
 
Pinatas are great fun.
You can build one to your own liking that bears no resemblance to any real thing, then you can beat the heck out of it.
 
Pinatas are great fun.
You can build one to your own liking that bears no resemblance to any real thing, then you can beat the heck out of it.
I don’t know what that has to do with the question but it makes about as much sense as the OP’s question I’m not understanding what the OP is trying to get at:shrug:
 
*We have to understand why a path is right or wrong before taking that pathway, otherwise we are suspending our abilities to think about moral issues and are no longer acting as a moral agent, but only acting as a trained pet. *

It becomes for man his responsibility to perfect his conscience by making good use of this God given tool of guidance. The proper honing of this conscience through right moral choices will prove the* individual warrants additional graces of clarification*. His intuitive functions are improved, and he is better able to control what is right and wrong. We are being tested and refined for a world of perfection. One is to test our relationship with him, and the other is through us has his instruments, to ensure that his plans for this world are realized through peaceful methods. In a word, his ambassadors.

We need not know why something is moral, although we are given knowledge of God’s plans through his chosen people and later the Church. All the universe is his, including ourselves. Eve didn’t need a long explanation before she obeyed as to why she should avoid a tree, nor an explanation to Lucifer as to why God chose a lowly Woman to shower her with abundant royal graces. Our place is to trust. Besides, why would he accept into the perfection of heaven, candidates who refuse to trust and strive for perfection in this other world. Logical even.

radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=conscience&db=1
  1. Would you explain more fully this Baptism of desire?
    Every human being has a conscience which dictates a natural law of moral obligation at least when he comes to the age of reason. If a pagan knows nothing of Christianity, and is ignorant of it through no fault of his own, he can at least repent of his personal sins against his conscience, and desire to do the right thing. God gives every man the grace to do this much. Now we know that a man should receive Baptism. If the pagan knew this he would receive Baptism. This sincere desire to do all that God would require implicitly includes the desire of Baptism, and God takes the will for the deed, granting sanctifying grace. Thus such a pagan would be saved. As is clear, anyone who has attained to the use of reason would be capable of this Baptism of desire.
  2. I mean, why don’t you acknowledge civil law as binding before God and in conscience.
    We acknowledge that in the case of each and every law which does not conflict with the law of Christ. In the matter of marriage there are laws which conflict with the law of Christ, and these state laws are not valid before God. As I have said, if every state law is necessarily the law of God, then you claim infallibility for the state, an infallibility you deny to the Catholic Church with scorn on the principle that there is no infallible body of men on earth.
 
I don’t know what that has to do with the question but it makes about as much sense as the OP’s question I’m not understanding what the OP is trying to get at:shrug:
goout was making the case that the OP is really a straw man argument; “an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.”
 
Assertions about the religion: It claims that all people have a broken moral compass and require a deity to direct them to the correct moral pathway.
No sir. Religion forms your moral compass. Catholicism does it for the Catholic. Buddhism does it for the Buddhist.

Fickle relativism does it for the atheist.

As one of your base assumptions is incorrect, it would be fruitless to continue further addressing your derived observations.
 
*We have to understand why a path is right or wrong before taking that pathway, otherwise we are suspending our abilities to think about moral issues and are no longer acting as a moral agent, but only acting as a trained pet. *

It becomes for man his responsibility to perfect his conscience by making good use of this God given tool of guidance. The proper honing of this conscience through right moral choices will prove the* individual warrants additional graces of clarification*. His intuitive functions are improved, and he is better able to control what is right and wrong. We are being tested and refined for a world of perfection. One is to test our relationship with him, and the other is through us has his instruments, to ensure that his plans for this world are realized through peaceful methods. In a word, his ambassadors.
This sounds like a conversation between the individual and the deity to come to an understanding about moral choices for a situation. So the individual can be come convinced of what is the better moral path, and as such, will understand why to take the path before making the choice. That is fine because the individual is applying their abilities to assess a situation and has been convinced of the morality of that choice. They are acting as a moral agent here. However, what happens if the individual is still not convinced that the action their deity wants to them to take is a moral one, but rather an immoral one? Here they are still using their own moral compass as they understand reality and are not convinced their deity’s dictation is correct. So if the individual still chooses to go down the path they have yet to be convinced of to be morally correct, are they now just a trained pet with no understanding of right and wrong here? That is divine command theory as I see it being applied. That is an immoral system.
We need not know why something is moral, although we are given knowledge of God’s plans through his chosen people and later the Church. All the universe is his, including ourselves. Eve didn’t need a long explanation before she obeyed as to why she should avoid a tree, nor an explanation to Lucifer as to why God chose a lowly Woman to shower her with abundant royal graces. Our place is to trust. Besides, why would he accept into the perfection of heaven, candidates who refuse to trust and strive for perfection in this other world. Logical even.
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=conscience&db=1
This line of reasoning is to promote throwing out people’s innate humanity and just be servile. To be created broken in the eyes of this deity and then commanded to be well through the process of removing moral assessments to situations and blindly following the leader is, again, an immoral system.
  1. Would you explain more fully this Baptism of desire?
    Every human being has a conscience which dictates a natural law of moral obligation at least when he comes to the age of reason. If a pagan knows nothing of Christianity, and is ignorant of it through no fault of his own, he can at least repent of his personal sins against his conscience, and desire to do the right thing. God gives every man the grace to do this much. Now we know that a man should receive Baptism. If the pagan knew this he would receive Baptism. This sincere desire to do all that God would require implicitly includes the desire of Baptism, and God takes the will for the deed, granting sanctifying grace. Thus such a pagan would be saved. As is clear, anyone who has attained to the use of reason would be capable of this Baptism of desire.
This line of thinking is what brought about the forced conversion of indigenous people of South America that the catholic church engaged in. People must be convinced of what is right and wrong, not commanded, for them to be moral agents. Otherwise they are just trained pets with no moral understanding of why they are following the commands dictated to them.
  1. I mean, why don’t you acknowledge civil law as binding before God and in conscience.
    We acknowledge that in the case of each and every law which does not conflict with the law of Christ. In the matter of marriage there are laws which conflict with the law of Christ, and these state laws are not valid before God. As I have said, if every state law is necessarily the law of God, then you claim infallibility for the state, an infallibility you deny to the Catholic Church with scorn on the principle that there is no infallible body of men on earth.
Infallibility is the soup that the religious play in and I can understand why they would look at the world through that. However, secular discussions on coming to an understanding of right and wrong are never infallible, but are always correctable. Divine command theory is always claimed as “infallible” and never correctable.
 
This sounds like a conversation between the individual and the deity to come to an understanding about moral choices for a situation. So the individual can be come convinced of what is the better moral path, and as such, will understand why to take the path before making the choice. That is fine because the individual is applying their abilities to assess a situation and has been convinced of the morality of that choice. They are acting as a moral agent here. However, what happens if the individual is still not convinced that the action their deity wants to them to take is a moral one, but rather an immoral one? Here they are still using their own moral compass as they understand reality and are not convinced their deity’s dictation is correct. So if the individual still chooses to go down the path they have yet to be convinced of to be morally correct, are they now just a trained pet with no understanding of right and wrong here? That is divine command theory as I see it being applied. That is an immoral system.

This line of reasoning is to promote throwing out people’s innate humanity and just be servile. To be created broken in the eyes of this deity and then commanded to be well through the process of removing moral assessments to situations and blindly following the leader is, again, an immoral system.

This line of thinking is what brought about the forced conversion of indigenous people of South America that the catholic church engaged in. People must be convinced of what is right and wrong, not commanded, for them to be moral agents. Otherwise they are just trained pets with no moral understanding of why they are following the commands dictated to them.

Infallibility is the soup that the religious play in and I can understand why they would look at the world through that. However, secular discussions on coming to an understanding of right and wrong are never infallible, but are always correctable. Divine command theory is always claimed as “infallible” and never correctable.
There’s so many erroneous conceptions is almost impossible to begin.
You are right to note that morality is the free evaluation of human acts. This is the Catholic position. Research the relationship between freedom, responsibility, morality. The CCC talks about this in depth. Catholicism does not propose coercion as faith.

Infallibility? The Church has an expression of this. It is not “the soup” that Catholics I know are immersed in. We have faith. Infallibility is such a small part of an edifying faith. Your mileage may vary with other Catholics.

So, again, you have constructed a pinata with “Catholicism” painted on it.
Make it big! It’s easier to hit.
 
This topic is similar to something I was thinking about earlier this month.
On a side note, it’s hard not to notice that some people (a woman on MSNBC comes to mind) substitute liberal/left for good, and conservative/right for bad.
Hence, some people will redefine words so that “Liberal is good” actually means “Liberal is liberal” (or “Good is good”). And so on and so forth.

See also forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14485640#post14485640
 
Well, The sort of divine command theory that your proposing does not fit with Catholicism. So the question of whether or not it is immoral is a non sequitur for Catholicism.
I’m not saying that it has to be what catholics follow, just an exercise for discussing this concept and then going into what catholics are taught about this idea. How are catholics taught to come to believe their deity is the right one, morally, over any other deity and so on. How do catholics square the circle of moral practices their deity calls for while they believe those practices to still be immoral.
 
I’m not saying that it has to be what catholics follow, just an exercise for discussing this concept and then going into what catholics are taught about this idea. How are catholics taught to come to believe their deity is the right one, morally, over any other deity and so on. How do catholics square the circle of moral practices their deity calls for while they believe those practices to still be immoral.
Are you referring to God’s role as supreme arbiter and judge? Thus, the executor of justice?

Easy. He alone sits in that chair.

Grace VS. Justice from a God that exudes both
 
Are you referring to God’s role as supreme arbiter and judge? Thus, the executor of justice?

Easy. He alone sits in that chair.

Grace VS. Justice from a God that exudes both
The ruler is the yard stick of what is moral or immoral regardless of what it’s subjects consider moral or immoral? How is that not: might makes right?
 
This seems to be a similar conversation to “Euthyphro’s dilemma.” The answer to Euthyphro’s dilemma is the Trinity. If we say “God is Righteous” or “God is love” we are not talking of things that God does, or some moral overlay on some random being, or some human opinion. They are characteristics of God in the sense that He defines them by His very being… He is I AM. Is there a check on this? Who is watching the Watcher? The answer is only found logically in the Trinitarian viewpoint; One God, Three Persons. Accord between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
The ruler is the yard stick of what is moral or immoral regardless of what it’s subjects consider moral or immoral? How is that not: might makes right?
Because we are free? 🤷
Might-makes-right violates free will.
 
This seems to be a similar conversation to “Euthyphro’s dilemma.” The answer to Euthyphro’s dilemma is the Trinity. If we say “God is Righteous” or “God is love” we are not talking of things that God does, or some moral overlay on some random being, or some human opinion. They are characteristics of God in the sense that He defines them by His very being… He is I AM. Is there a check on this? Who is watching the Watcher? The answer is only found logically in the Trinitarian viewpoint; One God, Three Persons. Accord between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I’ve always understood words like, love, beauty, fairness, justice, perfection, etc. are all adjectives. Comparison words that have a reference point. Saying that this deity is the embodiment of these descriptions comes across as an assertion that is no different than saying my friend is the reference point of what all other love is compared to. But I made a judgement call to pick that reference point using my own moral system. But that is subjective because my friend can fall out of being that reference point because I have standards as to what that reference point must continue to embody. Therefore my own internal moral compass is the reference point. How is it that is not the case for this deity other than it just being the most powerful entity in the room? Anyone can make a proclamation about itself, but if the audience isn’t convinced that is the case, it doesn’t make it so in their understanding and as such is an unjustified claim or assertion.
 
Because we are free? 🤷
Might-makes-right violates free will.
Everyone is free to make the choice themselves, but the entity dishes out punishment on the people that do not pick it as a reference point. If the people were not convinced that entity is the reference point, then how is it moral to punish those individuals if they made a logical conclusion that they can not see as wrong?
 
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