Atheist friend willing to dialogue re: unchangeability of the Church

[Rejoice]

I’ve been corresponding with an atheist friend who agrees with me that if the Catholic Church has not changed its dogmas in 2000 years then this is a great piece of circumstantial evidence that Christ is who He said He was and so a good argument for the existence of God. Below is the text of my friend’s last email to me. Please let me know if you can answer his questions. Thank you!!!

Brett

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I agree that it’s silly for me to ask you to prove the church hasn’t ever changed its mind. Not only is that impossible for you to do, but a list of things the church hasn’t changed its mind about isn’t at all convincing, right? I would need to provide an example of something the church has demanded is an unchangeable truth and then show that it changed. The church, saints, popes, etc. have certainly said things that were wrong, being merely human (I think - you once told me that the pope has a special position in hearing God’s truth, and that he has never been wrong in translating these particular facts). And we agree that the fundamental religious truths shouldn’t be confused with the people that profess to speak for them.

So, before continuing this thread I come back to a previous question: where is “the list” of inalienable truths. Probably not a list, huh? I suspect there’s a complicated answer, but hopefully not too complicated. The more people are involved in interpreting things, the less convincing they will be. Is the “Creed”, mentioned below, a relatively fundamental source? (Of course, based on things that were presumable taught a 15 generations before). Other sources are mentioned, but is there one source (the bible? the ten commandments?) that is accepted by the church, from which all other directives are interpreted? I don’t want to take a source below as “the fundamental source” if it’s based on another, more fundamental one. I suspect the actual sources are in another language, adding one or more levels of interpretation outright, but an english one is preferable for me!

 

[Thal59]

Here’s one to start with.

“Thou shalt not procure an abortion, nor take the life of the new-born child.” (the Didache circa 140 AD.)

Before 1930, every Protestant denomination without exception agreed with the Catholic church against contraceptives and abortion on Biblical grounds. The Anglican church of England was the first to cave-in to the pressures of its congregation. By the mid 1980s, every Protestant denomination without exception, allowed for contraceptions, and to varying degrees, abortion.

Only the Catholic church has held the same view for almost 1,900 years; social changes and pressures notwithstanding.

Thal59

 

[rwoehmke]

For over 1900 years the Church has taught that Jesus was the Christ, the messiah, the anointed one. cf. Pauls epistles.

 

[MonkeyTape]

Thal59:

Here’s one to start with.

“Thou shalt not procure an abortion, nor take the life of the new-born child.” (the Didache circa 140 AD.)

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

The didache is a great place to start. Let’s not forget also the teaching on the Eucharist as the true body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” *Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

•   				"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like  						manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our  						salvation, so likewise have **we been taught that the food which is blessed by  						the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are  						nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.**" *Justin  							Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Or Marian Doctrines

•   				"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God,  						immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." *Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

•   				"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate,  						free of every stain of sin." *Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

Or the Blessed Trinity, or Peter’s primacy, or Infant Baptism

•   				"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him  						**are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old  						men."** *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

*“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).
*
Etc, Etc, Etc.
*

 

[Della]

Also, there is a huge difference between changing dogma and developing doctrine. This is a concept many non-Catholics have trouble grasping. For instance, the teaching about Mary’s Assumption. It was commonly believed all along, but it wasn’t declared dogma until 1950. There may be and probably will be other doctrines or beliefs long held that will be pronounced as dogmas in the future as products of the development of doctrine. But no change in the teaching took/takes place for that to happen.

 

[Rejoice]

Hi. Thanks for all of the help so far. I have actually given my friend most of this info already, however; what I need now is what my friend refers to as “the list of inalienable truths”. He wants to know what I can point to as: these are the dogmas that have never changed.

I can’t point to the Catechism, for example… or can I?

Is everything in the Catechism held to be unchangeable dogma or not?

If not, what is “the list” or how do I answer my friend?