Thank you very much for your kind words.LoL! I always enjoy your posts…
But you should realise by now that we don’t pray for you “even though” you are an evil athiest and an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. We pray for you “BECAUSE” you are an evil athiest and an abomination(Yes I’m kidding)
May God bless and guide you on your journey
Makes sense to me. He had belief at one time. Then he lost his belief. Now, he doesn’t believe. And the rest follows from there - You can’t reject what you don’t believe.I’m not arguing, but wondering…you wrote:
“I used to be a believer and then I lost it.”
and then:
“You made a mistke here. I do not “reject” God. I cannot emphasize this enough: “I DO NOT REJECT GOD”. I simply do not believe that that God exists. Please, I implore you, think it over. The lack of belief is not the same as rejection. **Only a believer could reject God.” **
Begs the question, “Does ‘lost’ =‘rejection’?”. Or “Is losing one’s faith an active or passive process”.
Simple. I was raised a believer. When I was a child I believed - children swallow anything that is told to them, they have no critical skills. Then I grew up and saw that there is no reason to assume God’s existence. There is no evidence for it - except an ancient book and the testimony of others. As such my belief “dried up”. When I was small, I prayed for all sorts of things. Nothing ever happened.
As I grew up, the belief became less and less important. As Paul said (1 Corinthians 13:11): When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
Seems like it was an active process for you, no?
Sorry. That does not work. I need a “deadline” to take it seriously. If you would say that God will manifest himself by April the 27th, 2012, then I can wait and excitedly anticipate that event. But if you say that “sometimes in the future God will come forth”, then I simply cannot take that open promise.
Yes. And if God would choose to give me a positive proof of his existence, that proof would not curtail my freedon to love or not love God - which is the important thing. My currect lack of belief is not a volitional choice. Do you think that one can believe something by a sheer effort of will?
Nonsense. Those people might say that God sent them, but people say many things. Why should I believe them? There is no reason to accept their word, since there is no objective supporting evidence.
You are most welcome.
No. I used the quote from Paul as in illustration, not as a verbatim description of what happened.
The apostle Thomas also needed something ‘extra’ to take it seriously, so you are in good company.
Also, the promise is not that God will ‘come forth’ so much as reveal His presence and providence in your life. God has brought us together in this discussion for a reason.If we could ‘prove’ His existence, then we would be forced to BELIEVE in his existence, not love him. And, since you have already established the you cannot love something you don’t believe in, then you must see the logic in this…If we had undenialble ‘proof’ of God, then there would be no faith. We choose to open up to God. “Leap of faith”. No of course I do not think one can believe by force of will, but it is our force of will (free will) that invites God in to do his work though us and in us, or closes the door to His graces. Your very accurate statement regarding freedom to love God is an important clue to His very existence!! We are created with that freedom built in. He loves us that much.
…Except for Jesus, his Son. He did exist. Not only Christian historians wrote about him, so did Jewish and secular historians. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies and revealed truth of the ‘people’ that came before Him. Do you have kids? My kids get the ‘because I said so’ logic when that is all they can understand. Later, when they mature, they will understand more of why I did not let them drink Mountain Dew through a Pixie Stick. Same with us and God, our Father. Our humility allows us to say…“You are our Father, we are your children”. Our lack of humility (pride) and im-maturity allows us to say otherwise.
No problem…I hope this is one of the ‘good arguments’ you miss:thumbsup:
Ok. Suppose I give you solemn promise that you will get a very expensive present from me - but I do not give you a deadline. You keep waiting and waiting and nothing happens. Days, weeks, months, years go by and nothing happens. When will you start doubting?
Actually this is not correct. If I would have proof, then I would have no need for belief. Belief (or faith) are only needed if one has no knowledge. I would not be “forced” to believe. I would have no need to believe, since I would know.
Sorry, does not make any sense. If I would know, then I could meaningfully “invite” God. I know that you hold “faith” in high regard. I don’t.
No, the only sentence in Josephus is considered a late addition, a forgery. No contemporary historian ever mentioned Jesus.
To make the correct analogy, I would promise to give you a gift, but YOU WOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR IT. Like geocaching. If you do nothing…nothing comes of it.
Perhaps “acknowledge” is a better word to use. You would have to acknowledge God if you could prove His existence.
I also hold truth, knowledge, science, art and philosophy in high regard. I understand some of where you are coming from…It is “faith” after all and no amount of discussion will change the “brass tax” (tacks?) of faith being paramount as a first step. Faith is a gift. You mentioned before that you were a beliver, but not catholic at one time. What is your background if I may ask? Do you have “faith” in anything? That is to say a belief in anything that can not be proven? Do you hold that your views are the correct views for human beings? Do you think your views are enlightened beyond those of the “believers”?
Not true…Jesus has appeared many times to the Saints, and they have written about the experience. I was also thinking of Paul and the gospel writers. Also, Pontius Pilate wrote about him. People who write about events are considered “historians” in a sense. I mean…“The Diary of Anne Frank” is a book that contains historical facts, but presented as a memoir. Are you saying that Jesus did not exist…that he is not a real person? That it is all made-up? I guess that would also explain why they never found the body!!
