Atheist save souls

[notsmart]

Actually doesn’t that more prove MY point?

It does not prove your point. The author is Paul.
Think about it.

 

[frankblahnik]

"RedeemedbyJesus:

Sin is breaking God’s law.

Could you please explain in your own words what good is? And what your motives for doing good is? Thank you for cooperating with this thread.

Maybe the non believer who does good, is in a better position to be open to whatever grace God grants them. Since they do good without looking for any eternal reward. And in the vast majority of cases, do so without any reward, eternal or temporal.
Maybe.

Yeah, maybe God credits non-believers for their good, and He saves it all up in like a bank account, but doesn’t give them eternal salvation in Heaven until they come to the bank.

Areopagite:

Stoics general ethics system went like this:

• The purpose and happiness of man is to contemplate truth.
• Passions and emotions prevent you from thinking clearly, and thus prevent you from contemplating truth … therefore preventing happiness.
• Therefore, all passions and emotions are evil. One should strive for apathy, never caring about anything that happens in the world, never seeking pleasure, never loving, otherwise some passion or emotion might get riled up.

The emotions, as Aristotle and Thomas said, should be moderated, never becoming too strong but still being allowed to exist and do their thing within reason. The Stoics were pretty much Proto-Puritans, in my view.

• The purpose and happiness of man is to contemplate truth (I don’t agree. Contemplating truth can cause division. I believe the purpose and happiness of man is to love. Although, there is a time and place for contemplating truth, and it can bring happiness, to call it the prime purpose of life would be like…“where’s the faith”.).
• Passions and emotions prevent you from thinking clearly, and thus prevent you from contemplating truth … therefore preventing happiness (I agree that passions and emotions prevent you from thinking clearly)
• Therefore, all passions and emotions are evil. One should strive for apathy, never caring about anything that happens in the world, never seeking pleasure, never loving, otherwise some passion or emotion might get riled up. (That don’t sound good)

If you don’t mind me asking? What does Proto-Puritans mean?

ARE THERE ANY STOICS OUT THERE? IF SO, TELL US MORE ABOUT YOURSELF! THANK YOU!

Fran65:

No human being is in any position to judge another (that is to say whether that person will be saved or not). The only judge is God. No human can say why a person does not know (or accept) the Gospel or the Church - it may be his fault or not. Only God knows. We, as Catholics still have a responsibility to teach the Truth though.

Well said Fran65! Thank you for bringing CCC 847 and CCC 843 to the table. Would it be possible for you to look deep within, and tell us what your motives are for doing good? Thank you.

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church.”

And, just for some variety, here’s the ISV…

“Now I am rejoicing while suffering for you as I complete in my flesh whatever remains of the Messiah’s sufferings on behalf of his body, which is the church.”

If you don’t get where I’m going with this, let me know. I’ll just throw it out there for now.

Please do go on! Please elaborate! Thank you so much!

---

sorry if this thread is seeming like some kind of group therapy session. :grouphug:

 

[notsmart]

“Yeah, maybe God credits non-believers for their good, and He saves it all up in like a bank account, but doesn’t give them eternal salvation in Heaven until they come to the bank”

I said they may be more open to grace- I never mentioned salvation- only you did.
I am wondering what your true purpose and intent is on this thread.

 

[frankblahnik]

“Yeah, maybe God credits non-believers for their good, and He saves it all up in like a bank account, but doesn’t give them eternal salvation in Heaven until they come to the bank”

I said they may be more open to grace- I never mentioned salvation- only you did.
I am wondering what your true purpose and intent is on this thread.

Just thinking about thinking and hopefully learn something from it.

 

[Fran65]

I have a number of different reasons for doing good.

1. I genuinely do not want to hurt others. I experience distress, guilt and discomfort when I have done something to hurt another person or animal capable of suffering. I think this is both an inborn trait and one that has been further developed by society and my education.
2. I want to please God. I believe that He is all good and I want to get closer to Him as far as I can. Not doing good separates me further from God.
3. It is often less trouble and work to do good. For example telling lies leads to having to remember what I have said and construct further lies.
4. Doing good makes me feel good. This is both personal and interpersonal - I know that others will think better of me if I do good rather than bad.
5. Doing good is good for society. If we were all selfish and badly behaved society would not function and we would all suffer more.

For example: I try to stick to speed limits when driving. This reduces the risk of an accident in which I or someone else could be hurt or killed; it reduces my fuel consumption; it helps traffic flow; it gives me sense of achievement to exercise self discipline and I feel like a role model - while trying not to be smug or priggish!

 

[frankblahnik]

Let me apolagize to everyone involved in this thread for my poor internet communication skills. I’m new to this forum talk, and still learning the proper etiquette.

I did have good intentions with this thread. I was trying to understand the motives of a non-believer for doing good and living a rightous life. And also trying to understand God better. And understand how a non-believer defines doing good and living a rightous life.

People will be who they are, and it’s not up to me to understand everything. But it is up to me to love everyone.

Love and God bless to you all!

 

[frankblahnik]

Regarding motives for doing good and avoiding bad, does this sound about right…???

For the believer: Do good and avoid bad to avoid the loss of eternal heaven] and the pains of eternal hell], but mostly because God is our Loving Father, and we do not want to offend Him.

For the non-believer: Do good and avoid bad to avoid the loss of (living a good life) and the pains of (living a bad life), but mostly because doing good is the right thing to do.

A believer views life as temorary and eternal, whereas a non-believer views life as temporary only.

Since a believer not only views life as eternal but temporary as well, the believer would also carry the same motives as the non-believer (sort of a balance).

Since a non-believer views life only as temporary, the motives in that area would be stronger than the believer. It is these strengths that we need to focus on in this thread.

 

[frankblahnik]

Our beliefs must be based on love and faith and not out of fear. Any thoughts on this?..

 

[frankblahnik]

Regarding motives for doing good and avoiding bad, does this sound about right…???

For the believer: Do good and avoid bad to avoid the loss of eternal heaven] and the pains of eternal hell], but mostly because God is our Loving Father, and we do not want to offend Him.

For the non-believer: Do good and avoid bad to avoid the loss of (living a good life) and the pains of (living a bad life), but mostly because doing good is the right thing to do.

A believer views life as temorary and eternal, whereas a non-believer views life as temporary only.

Since a believer not only views life as eternal but temporary as well, the believer would also carry the same motives as the non-believer (sort of a balance).

Since a non-believer views life only as temporary, the motives in that area would be stronger than the believer. It is these strengths that we need to focus on in this thread.

Our beliefs must be based on love and faith and not out of fear. Any thoughts on this?..

Has everyone abandoned this thread. I have some thoughts on this… If our beliefs that motivate us to do good must be based on love and faith and not out of fear, then doing good out of the fear of “going to hell”, or doing good out of fear of “living a bad life” is not right because it is based on fear. To phrase it differently doing good out of the fear of “not going to heaven”, or doing good out of the fear of “not living a good life” is also not right because it is based on fear.

Furthermore, avoiding bad out of fear of offending God is not right because it too is based on fear. Avoiding bad out of fear of living an unrighteous life is not right because once again it is based on fear.

Avoiding fear out of fear of fear is not right because it is a loop of fear, the very thing we are trying to avoid.

What motivates us to do good? Where does our love come from? Why do we have it? Where does it go? Why do we lose it? How do we keep it?

The only real way to live is out of love and faith. There is no room for good and bad, right and wrong. Love and faith is all there is.

 

[Leela]

Our beliefs must be based on love and faith and not out of fear. Any thoughts on this?..

Hi Frank,

I like to think that my beliefs are based on evidence and can be re-examined in light of new experiences.

I don’t think it is possible to will yourself to believe something you don’t already believe whether motivated by love or faith. We believe things because we think they are true and can’t make ourselves believe things that we think are false.

I can’t see what faith can have to do with belief other than as a word used to encourage others to believe things that aren’t justified.

Best,
Leela

 

[frankblahnik]

Hi Frank,

I like to think that my beliefs are based on evidence and can be re-examined in light of new experiences.

I don’t think it is possible to will yourself to believe something you don’t already believe whether motivated by love or faith. We believe things because we think they are true and can’t make ourselves believe things that we think are false.

I can’t see what faith can have to do with belief other than as a word used to encourage others to believe things that aren’t justified.

Best,
Leela

Hi Leela,

I hope I understand your post correctly…

You mostly talk about beliefs…

Beliefs are just agreements we make with ourselves.

All I’m saying is that those agreements should be based on faith and not fear.

 

[Leela]

Hi Leela,

I hope I understand your post correctly…

You mostly talk about beliefs…

Beliefs are just agreements we make with ourselves.

All I’m saying is that those agreements should be based on faith and not fear.

Hi Frank,

“Agreements we make with ourselves” is an unusual way pf describing beliefs. Perhaps you can unpack that description? To me “agreement” suggests something that can be entered into or not based on a decision. It is hard for me to imagine belief as a matter of decision or will. It is impossible to believe something that you don’t think is true, and you can’t will something to be true. though I would agree if you think that this is what is attempted under the term “faith” rather than belief. Faith seems to an attempt to enter into an agreement but under the false assumption that you can believe something by choice.

Faith is a word that we don’t need when we have words like “wish” and “hope” for things that may not be true but we would like to be true, and “belief” for things that we think are actually true. I know what it means to wish, to hope, or to believe, but what could it mean “to faith”?

Best,
Leela

 

[frankblahnik]

Hi Frank,

“Agreements we make with ourselves” is an unusual way pf describing beliefs. Perhaps you can unpack that description? To me “agreement” suggests something that can be entered into or not based on a decision. It is hard for me to imagine belief as a matter of decision or will. It is impossible to believe something that you don’t think is true, and you can’t will something to be true. though I would agree if you think that this is what is attempted under the term “faith” rather than belief. Faith seems to an attempt to enter into an agreement but under the false assumption that you can believe something by choice.

Faith is a word that we don’t need when we have words like “wish” and “hope” for things that may not be true but we would like to be true, and “belief” for things that we think are actually true. I know what it means to wish, to hope, or to believe, but what could it mean “to faith”?

Best,
Leela

Hi Leela,
I can try to explain what I mean when I say beliefs are agreements we make with ourselves, but it seems pretty self explanatory. To believe something is to accept it as true. The process of acceptance involves agreement. Doesn’t it? As soon as we agree to something, we believe it, and this is called faith.

Maybe you could explain how beliefs are not agreements…

 

[Leela]

Hi Leela,
I can try to explain what I mean when I say beliefs are agreements we make with ourselves, but it seems pretty self explanatory.

Hi Frank,

I still don’t get it. It’s not at all self-explanatory for me. Can we replace “agreements we make with ourselves” with “beliefs” in sentences and make any sense?

“I [make an agreement with myself] in one God, the Father Almighty…” It’s not just cumbersome but nonsensical.

To believe something is to accept it as true. The process of acceptance involves agreement. Doesn’t it? As soon as we agree to something, we believe it, and this is called faith.

Maybe you could explain how beliefs are not agreements…

For pragmatists like myself, to believe something is to be willing to act on it. I don’t see what that has to do with faith. I think faith is only invoked when people don’t think that their beliefs are well-justified. In the face of such uncertainty, instead of being cautious about acting on it, the word faith is used to encourage people to act as though they were certain. For me that’s pretty scary. The idea that faith is a virtue is one I’d like to get rid of.

Best,
Leela

 

[frankblahnik]

I still don’t get it. It’s not at all self-explanatory for me. Can we replace “agreements we make with ourselves” with “beliefs” in sentences and make any sense?

“I [make an agreement with myself] in one God, the Father Almighty…” It’s not just cumbersome but nonsensical.

The sentence makes sense to me, but I agree it is cumbersome, which is why I use the word believe instead.

For pragmatists like myself, to believe something is to be willing to act on it. I don’t see what that has to do with faith. I think faith is only invoked when people don’t think that their beliefs are well-justified. In the face of such uncertainty, instead of being cautious about acting on it, the word faith is used to encourage people to act as though they were certain. For me that’s pretty scary. The idea that faith is a virtue is one I’d like to get rid of.

To act on a belief you must be confident of the outcome which is what I define as having faith.