Atheist Scientists

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I didn’t claim Einstein was a “believer.” If you look at my post again, the quotes were used to show that religion and science are not incompatible. Einstein appears to have been a Deist, which claims existence of a “clockmaker” so to speak, who wound up his clock but then doesn’t touch or directly interact with it again. I used to be deist, and while it falls on the side of Theism, it too is not congruent with all the available evidence.
He wasn’t a diest, he didn’t really believe in any kind of god, it’s an out of context quote and he said as much himself. The closest thing he came to believing in a god was simply viewing the universe with awe and wonder.

Religion and science are incompatible. Religion is simply belief without reason, a vile and dangerous practice that will hopefully be wiped out some day. Science is inference based on evidence and reason using the scientific method. Nothing about those two things can go hand in hand.
 
Religion and science are incompatible. Religion is simply belief without reason, a vile and dangerous practice that will hopefully be wiped out some day. Science is inference based on evidence and reason using the scientific method. Nothing about those two things can go hand in hand.
A science class doesn’t teach religion. It isn’t compatible.

The Catholic Church alone has over a billion followers. There are many Christians throughout the world from different religions. Most will agree codes for behaviour in other aspects of life to ensure consistency with a set of beliefs, i.e a moral code, like the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament, flowing from the beliefs rather than being defined by the beliefs, with said moral code often being elevated to the status of a legal code that is enforced by followers of that religion and the state. Example being “thou shalt not kill”.
 
Hi but I can’t for the life of me think of a way to respond to this in a way that advances the case for faith.

Anyone have any ideas?
I have some material I wrote that will help you. Reformulate it in your own words. I bellieve it will help you more than them though because many of us, as Christians, have a fundemental misunderstanding of why we believe. It will also address that it is not superior knowledge that causes scientists to reject God–but arrogance and pride derived from having itelligence. Their debates are the forum they use to glorify themselves

I believe there is a misconception by some Christians and non Christians on how people believe.

Christians dont “believe” because someone showed us one last peice of evidence that finally convinced us this was all true. This isnt Columbo

If we treat belief as the collecting of data, piecing together clues, and then finally obtaining just enough to put us over the hump, we leave ourselves open to that one piece of new evidence that debunks our theory.

Of all the people who I’ve talked to that dont believe in God, not one has ever answered yes to this question…

Have you ever thought to ask God Himself what the truth is?

They search for clues, have arguments with themselves, debating back and forth pros and cons, but never ask God. But why? Well usually its because they think they’re smarter than the supposed God of this world. In other words, I can think of a better plan than this–so there cant be a God to ask anyway.

Dont you think that would block communication with God? 🙂 Think about it…I dont understand the plan…so there’s no God. Isnt one of the definitions of God that he is infinitely smarter than us? Does a dog ever realize why we sent him outside to poop? You see suffering and think…I’ve got better plan. Doesnt a dog think he has a better plan than us too? Havnt we seen Man’s grand plan enough to know we dont have clue?

It takes humility to admit we might not be as wise as we think we are. It takes a child like attitude to say, God…help me understand. If you are real, help my mind understand it. If you drop your shields He will put it as a fact in your head. Its not about clues or data. Yes, there is testimony. People have died for it instead of suicide bombed for it. And yes, there are more copies of the Bible on earth than any other book. But ask God himself. That is the answer-- hear the testimony and ask God. No clever arguments will achieve what only God can do.

The vehicle God choose was not to put a burdon on you—but HIM. We cant be perfect because have the freewill to think anything we want…(so its possible to choose.) We deserve to be punished for our behavoir but God stepped in and took that punishment for us. All he asks is you accept that. His plan is like nothing man would think up. Man would make it hard…God made it as easy as it could be. Accept his offer and live forever. I say, where do I sign up? Man’s idea would be to go on CNN. But God reveals the true state of a human heart by requiring child-like faith. Remember, they killed Christ when they saw him and all the great things he did. So seeing makes no difference because God knows who you are reagrdless of what you see.

The athiest search for “Proof” is not found in data, but in asking God. God transforms the mind…not data.

I mean think about it. In your search…have you ever thought to ask the source Himself? How about giving that a try. Or are you too proud? Consider this: Could it be this Pride that has blocked you from God’s message? Well, if your too proud to bow down before God and ask Him for the Truth…I dont see how your going to ever find it. This isnt about being smart. I have an IQ that is in the top 5% in the country. Paul, who also was a hater of the truth, was very intelligent, but considered it worthless in the end.

1 Corinthians 1

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

part2 is next
 
Part 2

1 Corinthians 2

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

His point is you can research all the live long day and it will all be just text on a page unless God reveals it to you. So now that you’ve done your research, ask God for the truth. Lower your shields​

I hope you can use this line of reasoning in some way. Tailor it to the persons comments. Your job is not to prove God from data—it is to convince the person to ask God for the truth.👍
 
ps
You also might want to point out the sheer ignorance of the idea that scientists are the pinnacle of human intelligence. High IQ’s permeate humanity throughout every walk of life. For scientists to claim They are the pjnnacle of human wisdom is laughable. It is one thing to be able calculate and quite another to have wisdom

Did you know that school children had pointed out for years that the continents must have been together at one time because their shapes fit perfectly–yet scientists actually laughed at the idea? Wisdom escaped them.

The bible and christian theologians said the universe had a beginning for eons and every single major scientist said it always existed–including Einstein. They reached a completely illogical conclusion known as an “infinite regess”. Wisdom escaped them.

They are not the pinnacle of human wisdom–they are simly one segment of employment in our world. Its an occupation, not a high preist of the universe.

Again, this reasoning will not convert though—so confront them with humility challange. Everthing else will be just satisfying their lust to proclaim their superiority
 
He wasn’t a diest, he didn’t really believe in any kind of god…
He said he didn’t believe in a “personal God.” That is far different than claiming he did not believe in “any kind of God.” Instead Einstein described God as “superpersonal” (ausserpersönlichen).

Einstein himself affirmed:
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” (Albert Einstein, cited by Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Einstein, New York, 1948, Mentor soft cover edition, 1963, p. 109.).
You can go on claiming that “in context” this means that he didn’t believe in “any kind of god” all you like, but it sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself more than anything else.

Einstein stated quite clearly, “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all being” Denis Brian, Einstein, A Life, New York, 1996, p. 127].

“By God”, Spinoza wrote, “I mean a being absolutely infinite-that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality” (Ethica). Spinoza further stated: “Whatever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived.” (Ethica, Proposition XV).

However, it seems Einstien himself, while certain he was NOT an atheist, was less certain about what he understood as the superpersonal God he believed in. In answer to the question “Do you believe in the God of Spinoza?” Einstein replied:
I can’t answer with a simple yes or no. I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows ***someone ***must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. [Einstein, cited by D. Brian, p. 186)
Religion and science are incompatible.
As I’ve already shown, many of the world’s leading scientists disagree with you.

Einstein differed with you on this as well. He stated (in fuller context), while addressing a theological seminary:
Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion.
To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. [Einstein, 1939 address to Princeton Theological Seminary, *Ideas and Opinions, p.46.]

[/quote]
 
Religion is simply belief without reason…
Your definition of “religion” has little to do with reality.

“Religion” comes from the Latin word, religare, which means “to regulate.” That’s what a religion does, it regulates one’s intellect and will, one’s way of behaving and believing. You voluntarily choose a religion. When one says they “believe” in a religious sense, what they are saying is that they freely accept and submit to their religion. Positivism is just as much a “religious” belief as any other.

All beliefs–philosophical, scientific, theological, political, legal, economic, or otherwise–are based upon three kinds of evidence:
  1. experience (which include passions, emotions),
  2. reason, and
  3. testimony of others.
Since each and every person has varying ability to reason, they experience different things, and have been exposed to varying testimonies, it should be no surprise that there are so many different beliefs in the world. Whether or not those beliefs are true is another thing, however. Some are quite unreasonable. Many are rather contrary to experience, and many conflict with trustworthy testimony.

One must choose for themselves who and how to worship based upon: 1) reason, 2) experience, and 3) the testimony of others.

Sociologist Peter Berger wrote a book called, *The Heretical Imperative. *In it Berger uses the word “heresy” to mean “to choose for one’s self.” The irony pointed to by Berger is that even when one chooses orthodox values, he or she has to exercised “heresy” because in the process of intentionally choosing any set of values, even the traditional ones, alternatives must be considered. In his book, Berger addresses the modern situation with its multitudes of religions, philosophies and paradigms, declaring that we each live with “a heretical imperative.”

Harvard professor R.B. Perry wrote that the root of religion is, “the attempt of man, conscious of his helplessness, to unite himself with the powers which do actually dominate." He further affirms, "True religion is better than false, but it is not less certain that religion is better than irreligion.” Religion. An Introduction - Lectures on the Harvard Classics (1909-1914)]. If this is true, then everyone who recognizes that he is not the power which dominates, has a choice to make. How will you regulate your life? Religion is better than irreligion (ie. a non-regulated life).

Faith is assent to that which is “unseen.” But it isn’t “blind” if it relies upon experience, reason and trustworthy testimony as valid forms of evidence, just like all other fields of study.

Every field of study includes trust/belief (ie. “faith”) in things unseen or not fully understood. I studied engineering in college. When in college, I never actually saw the wave-like characteristics of light with my own eyes. I trusted that the brilliant fathers of science who testified to the wave-like characteristics were trustworthy. In my undergraduate studies, I can’t say that I ever fully “understood” Schrodinger’s Equation, but in order to move on in science, I couldn’t stop to verify every testimony given to me by the use of my own eyes. I needed to trust Schrodinger and many others, then perhaps later I might better understand. Faith precedes understanding, even in engineering studies.

Even science draws upon and considers authoritative much evidence which is “unseen” or merely “theoretical.” The study of math, science, philosophy, and theology and other fields of study ALL rely upon varying degrees of certainty which are less than absolute in order to progress. Individuals must also progress, grow, mature without having absolute certainty.

There are indeed some things about reality that are “incomprehensible” to human nature. However, that does not imply that *all *things cannot be knowable to sufficient degree to grow, to mature, to believe. The conclusions of our daily existence can and must be an assent based upon the preponderance of evidence. If we discover new evidence which is contradictory, we simply draw different conclusions. That’s how life works.

We can and must draw conclusions based upon the preponderance of evidence, even though human reasoning can be flawed, or our experience limited, or some of the testimony before us is false. To do otherwise would be detrimental to maturity, growth, and living one’s full potential.
 
Who cares what Einstein believed?

I’m just astounded that this comes up over and over again!

It doesn’t matter at all. No matter what he believed there were people just as smart, and just as knowledgeable, who believed something else. What his personal beliefs were has about as much relevance as what his taste in music was.
 
Who cares what Einstein believed?

I’m just astounded that this comes up over and over again!

It doesn’t matter at all. No matter what he believed there were people just as smart, and just as knowledgeable, who believed something else. What his personal beliefs were has about as much relevance as what his taste in music was.
While you may not care, I have actually known atheists who have doubted their beliefs because they respected Einstein as a scientific authority. Again, you may not care, but other real people have re-considered their faith in Positivism because a man they considered authoritative rejected that error.
 
He said he didn’t believe in a “personal God.” That is far different than claiming he did not believe in “any kind of God.” Instead Einstein described God as “superpersonal” (ausserpersönlichen).
He also stated he believed if any sort of such spirit did exist, it had no will like we would understand it or any interest in our fate at all. It’s for all intents and purposes athiesm, and he stated that on a few occations as well. Spinoza’s god was very much not like anything most people would label a god.
As I’ve already shown, many of the world’s leading scientists disagree with you.
You’ve shown a few scientists disagree, as I’ve already shown, they are wrong and so are you. Logic trumps out of context quotes.
 
Y“Religion” comes from the Latin word, religare, which means “to regulate.”
That does nothing to disprove the point I made.
That’s what a religion does, it regulates one’s intellect and will, one’s way of behaving and believing.
Without any basis in reason.
You voluntarily choose a religion.
Unless you’re forced into it. Much like your eating unless you’re not or you’re sleeping unless you are awake. Religion can be forced on you through violence or brainwashing, and it almost always is, as it is so incredibly ridiculous that it can’t spread any other way.
Positivism is just as much a “religious” belief as any other.
Positivism is a philosophy, and not one I was supporting. You would do well to find yourself a dictionary and look these terms up before using them
All beliefs–philosophical, scientific, theological, political, legal, economic, or otherwise–are based upon three kinds of evidence:
  1. experience (which include passions, emotions),
  2. reason, and
  3. testimony of others.
If you’re going to make obviously false statements you should at least try to back them up with something.
Harvard professor R.B. Perry wrote that the root of religion is, “the attempt of man, conscious of his helplessness, to unite himself with the powers which do actually dominate." He further affirms, "True religion is better than false, but it is not less certain that religion is better than irreligion.” [Religion. An Introduction - Lectures on the Harvard Classics (1909-1914)]. If this is true, then everyone who recognizes that he is not the power which dominates, has a choice to make. How will you regulate your life? Religion is better than irreligion (ie. a non-regulated life).
One guy said religion is better then irreligion therefore it’s true? You’re reasoning needs work.
Faith is assent to that which is “unseen.” But it isn’t “blind” if it relies upon experience, reason and trustworthy testimony as valid forms of evidence, just like all other fields of study.
That is not how the term faith is ever used. When someone says “evidence and reasoning are okay, but they are trumped by faith” or “it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s my faith” they aren’t talking about a belief based on experience and reason, they are talking about the opposite.
Every field of study includes trust/belief (ie. “faith”) in things unseen or not fully understood. I studied engineering in college. When in college, I never actually saw the wave-like characteristics of light with my own eyes. I trusted that the brilliant fathers of science who testified to the wave-like characteristics were trustworthy. In my undergraduate studies, I can’t say that I ever fully “understood” Schrodinger’s Equation, but in order to move on in science, I couldn’t stop to verify every testimony given to me by the use of my own eyes. I needed to trust Schrodinger and many others, then perhaps later I might better understand. Faith precedes understanding, even in engineering studies.
Nothing is ever “directly” observed. Objections to faith are not objections to indirect observation. It’s an objection to beliefs created outside any valid reasoing or observation.
We can and must draw conclusions based upon the preponderance of evidence, even though human reasoning can be flawed, or our experience limited, or some of the testimony before us is false. To do otherwise would be detrimental to maturity, growth, and living one’s full potential.
That’s called reason, and is far different then religious belief. When you show the preponderance of evidence that god clearly doesn’t exist and believers say “well, it’s just my faith”, that’s faith. Reason relies on acknowleding the varying degrees of certainty of your belief instead of believing totally and wholeheartedly regardless of the evidence shown.
 
While you may not care, I have actually known atheists who have doubted their beliefs because they respected Einstein as a scientific authority. Again, you may not care, but other real people have re-considered their faith in Positivism because a man they considered authoritative rejected that error.
So, atheists have rejected their beliefs because Einstein may or may not have believed in a non-personal god? I think it is interesting that people so respect Einstein that they would take a course of action that he would have found repulsive. I’m amazed that you seem to think this is a good thing.
 
…I’m amazed that you seem to think this is a good thing.
When an atheist comes to doubt his erroneous position, I do consider that a “good thing.” Einstein rejected atheism explicitly because it didn’t correspond to reality. That atheists would attempt to claim him as their own is ridiculous. Einstein stated, “I am not an atheist,” and further held that belief in a personal God is better than atheism. [letter to V. T. Aaltonen (7 May 1952)].

You might say, “Who cares?” Well this thread is in response to the claim that scientists–who are supposedly smarter than others–have concluded that faith and reason are incompatible. However, many Nobel award winning scientists have concluded otherwise.

The “they are wrong” rebuttal fails to convince. Nor am I expecting to convince many atheists, especially those firm in their “faith” in atheism.

I’m simply responding to the original post and affirm, as one who actually earns a living in the field of “rocket science,” that along with Max Planck, one of the world’s greatest scientists founder of quantum theory, & Nobel prize winner (and Christian):“There can never be any real opposition between religion and science; for the one is the complement of the other.”

Those who claim religion and science are incompatible are either wrong with regard to religion, or wrong with regard to science, or both.
 
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