Atheist Sez, Catholic Sez

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:rotfl:

Uh…no.

I made up my example to simply illustrate the KIND of thing that verifiable NDE’s can, well…verify.

In a previous post, I provided links to Dr. Gary Habermas’ website where he has provided a boatload of information. See post #29.

There are actually inter-disciplinary committees that investigate this stuff. Dr. Habermas serves as the “Christian” representative for one such organization.
Is there anything else that you just “made up” to support your position in this thread? Before you answer, please reread Post #20 paying particular attention to where you claimed a shoe was seen by an NDEer and found by investigators.
 
There are lots of examples of verifiable NDE’s like this, and they put the lie to the naturalist idea that there is nothing beyond the material world.
I made up my example to simply illustrate the KIND of thing that verifiable NDE’s can, well…verify.
:hmmm:

NDE is akin to alien abductions, UFO’s, astrology, expanded consciousness, ESP, aphrodisiacs, witches, conspiracy theories, zombies, vampires… surely both Christians and atheists should teach their children to be highly skeptical of everything in the paranormal zoo?
 
:hmmm:

NDE is akin to alien abductions, UFO’s, astrology, expanded consciousness, ESP, aphrodisiacs, witches, conspiracy theories, zombies, vampires… surely both Christians and atheists should teach their children to be highly skeptical of everything in the paranormal zoo?
I think people do yet I remember talking to a Catholic who happily said he believed in witches and demons and such. It is great to be skeptical and to teach that to ones offspring.
 
You MADE UP your example?

I think we’re done here…
Sure. To illustrate the types of things that people might recount after regaining consciousness.

However, I ALSO provided links to Dr. Habermas’ site, and you are free to review any of his material at your leisure. 👍
 
Is there anything else that you just “made up” to support your position in this thread? Before you answer, please reread Post #20 paying particular attention to where you claimed a shoe was seen by an NDEer and found by investigators.
Dr. Habermas specifically mentions this example in a talk he gave available on YouTube.

There are LOTS of his talks on this subject, but here’s one link to get you started:

youtube.com/watch?v=ac9pF32gRxU
 
:hmmm:

NDE is akin to alien abductions, UFO’s, astrology, expanded consciousness, ESP, aphrodisiacs, witches, conspiracy theories, zombies, vampires… surely both Christians and atheists should teach their children to be highly skeptical of everything in the paranormal zoo?
You are in error.

Dr. Habermas is a professor at Liberty University…have you heard of it? It’s a Baptist-oriented institution in Lynchburg, Virginia.
 
You are in error.

Dr. Habermas is a professor at Liberty University…have you heard of it? It’s a Baptist-oriented institution in Lynchburg, Virginia.
So I googled Habernas, and the first article which came up has him talking about an NDE involving roast chicken with rice. So there’s your chicken and rice story in post #36. Then another chicken and rice story from a book Brad spoke of in post #38. And now a third chicken and rice story. Whether Habernas is being conned or is conning himself, I’m thinking it wouldn’t be possible to be more debunked.

And now for some reason I’m hungry.
 
So I googled Habernas, and the first article which came up has him talking about an NDE involving roast chicken with rice. So there’s your chicken and rice story in post #36. Then another chicken and rice story from a book Brad spoke of in post #38. And now a third chicken and rice story. Whether Habernas is being conned or is conning himself, I’m thinking it wouldn’t be possible to be more debunked.

And now for some reason I’m hungry.
The link is to a good article, and I think this type of verifiable NDE presents atheists with a serious problem.
 
So I googled Habernas, and the first article which came up has him talking about an NDE involving roast chicken with rice. So there’s your chicken and rice story in post #36. Then another chicken and rice story from a book Brad spoke of in post #38. And now a third chicken and rice story. Whether Habernas is being conned or is conning himself, I’m thinking it wouldn’t be possible to be more debunked.

And now for some reason I’m hungry.
And this published by Liberty University:

digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1340&context=lts_fac_pubs
 
Dr. Habermas specifically mentions this example in a talk he gave available on YouTube.

There are LOTS of his talks on this subject, but here’s one link to get you started:

youtube.com/watch?v=ac9pF32gRxU
You’re correct, Habermas did mention the Seattle shoe case in your linked video. Unfortunately, however, he got one crucial detail wrong – the shoe wasn’t on the roof, it was on a window ledge. See the results of an investigation of that case here for why that’s an important detail.
 
You’re correct, Habermas did mention the Seattle shoe case in your linked video. Unfortunately, however, he got one crucial detail wrong – the shoe wasn’t on the roof, it was on a window ledge. See the results of an investigation of that case here for why that’s an important detail.
Yeah. The shoe was on the ledge. It was the chicken and rice that was on the roof.

Maybe we should stop calling these NDEs and start calling them CARs.
 
:confused: This is just him reviewing a book. There’s nothing evidential, its not peer reviewed and Habermas has no training in psychology or physiology. The article is just his opinions.

And again with the chicken and rice.

As far as I can see there are few genuine NDE cases, the only evidence is anecdotal, which has been collected unsystematically, by people with no relevant training. It’s then lapped up by people who are predisposed to believe. Perfect storm.

I can’t see how NDE relates to your OP. There are atheists who believe in an afterlife (I know two), so there may also be atheists who buy into this NDE stuff, whereas as a Christian I don’t, not even a tiny little bit.
 
You’re correct, Habermas did mention the Seattle shoe case in your linked video. Unfortunately, however, he got one crucial detail wrong – the shoe wasn’t on the roof, it was on a window ledge. See the results of an investigation of that case here for why that’s an important detail.
Thank you for the link. I skimmed a good portion of the article and read the portion concerning “Maria’s Shoe” more carefully.

I also read some additional articles on this incident and watched a YouTube video interview with Kimberly Clark Sharp.

I appreciate the article’s authors attempts to find an explanation of the events described by what they deem an “urban legend”, but a couple of things are puzzling.

At one point in their account, the article states:

Moreover, she was brought into the hospital through this very entrance—albeit at night, but the area was well-lit—and could’ve picked up details about it from normal sensory channels then (31-32).

Now, let me see if I understand the scenario correctly. “Maria” was brought to the hospital at night. In the midst of all the commotion that must have accompanied her arrival, she had the presence of mind to notice a tennis shoe on the ledge of a third floor window, and she was able to recall the details concerning the wear patterns and the placement of the shoelace. She did this at night (in what the author’s claim to be a “well-lit” area) while suffering a life-threatening medical emergency?

:hmmm:

That seems even more remarkable than the possibility of an NDE. 😛

More research into NDE’s is underway, so time will tell us more. And although the truth of Christianity does not hinge on such evidence, it will be interesting to learn what science can tell us about these events that point toward the possibility of something beyond the natural world we inhabit.
 
Yeah. The shoe was on the ledge. It was the chicken and rice that was on the roof.

Maybe we should stop calling these NDEs and start calling them CARs.
Were you a Christian before you became an atheist, Bradski? Anglican, perhaps? 😉
 
Thank you for the link. I skimmed a good portion of the article and read the portion concerning “Maria’s Shoe” more carefully.
Apparently not carefully enough.
I also read some additional articles on this incident and watched a YouTube video interview with Kimberly Clark Sharp.
I appreciate the article’s authors attempts to find an explanation of the events described by what they deem an “urban legend”, but a couple of things are puzzling.
At one point in their account, the article states:
Moreover, she was brought into the hospital through this very entrance—albeit at night, but the area was well-lit—and could’ve picked up details about it from normal sensory channels then (31-32).
Now, let me see if I understand the scenario correctly. “Maria” was brought to the hospital at night. In the midst of all the commotion that must have accompanied her arrival, she had the presence of mind to notice a tennis shoe on the ledge of a third floor window, and she was able to recall the details concerning the wear patterns and the placement of the shoelace. She did this at night (in what the author’s claim to be a “well-lit” area) while suffering a life-threatening medical emergency?
That seems even more remarkable than the possibility of an NDE. 😛
More research into NDE’s is underway, so time will tell us more. And although the truth of Christianity does not hinge on such evidence, it will be interesting to learn what science can tell us about these events that point toward the possibility of something beyond the natural world we inhabit.
It’s telling where you saw fit to begin and end your quotation above. Here’s the same quote in context.

Second, her perception of details concerning the area surrounding the emergency room entrance were of details that “common sense would dictate”—such as the fact that the doors opened inward, accommodating paramedics rushing in patients who need immediate attention (31). Moreover, she was brought into the hospital through this very entrance—albeit at night, but the area was well-lit—and could’ve picked up details about it from normal sensory channels then (31-32). The fact that rushing ambulances would traverse a one-way driveway, too, is something anyone could infer from common sense. Finally, Maria’s hospital room was just above the emergency room entrance for a full three days before she had her OBE, and “she could have [easily] gained some sense of the traffic flow from the sounds of the ambulances coming and going” and from nighttime “reflections of vehicle lights” even if she never left her bed.

As we can see, the investigators aren’t claiming that Maria saw the shoe upon her arrival to the ER, but only that she might have gained knowledge of the comings and goings of the ER entrance by ordinary means. I’ll leave it to you to reread the article to find out how Maria may have learned about the shoe in a non-floaty kind of way.

At this point I’ve pretty much reached my limit in correcting your misperceptions (if not outright distortions) of the shoe case.

Have a good one.
 
Ultimately I don’t think NDEs are going to convince anyone of anything. 🤷

The fact that perception persists after (technical) physical death is all that matters; what kind and how accurate it was seems meaningless to me. The mere remembrance of sensation or perception from a time when the heart was not beating is what amazes me.

I would imagine that NDEs are very like dreams; a mix of perception, subconcious processes, extrapolation, and occasionally, messages from God. Very, very occasionally. Just like there is no universal language for dreams (because everything has different meanings to different people), I don’t think that NDEs prove anything other than that the perceptions we collect under duress, when subconscious, are at our command when waking again. That’s the impressive part.

I personally think this thread has gotten way off topic, and I stayed silent until now because I didn’t have anything in particular to add, and honestly find this whole sidetrack to be without effect. Also, I don’t fancy getting ripped to pieces over every little comment. I had high hopes for this thread when I watched it start, but all it has shown me is that whoever is on whatever side, is bound and determined before all else to stay there. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the mere act of debate itself is futile.
 
Well in an effort to bring this discussion into another topic,

If incest is wrong why did god force it to happen? While there are multiple examples of incest in the bible the main points I am looking at are Adam and Eve and Noah and his family. With Adam and Eve by creating only two people god forced them to either have parents have children with their own children or siblings to have children. If incest really is a sin then why didn’t god create enough people to start with so he wouldn’t be forcing people into a sin? Similar question with Noah and his family why not create more people to live on Earth with Noah and his family instead of forcing them to re-populate through incest?
 
Apparently not carefully enough.

It’s telling where you saw fit to begin and end your quotation above. Here’s the same quote in context.

Second, her perception of details concerning the area surrounding the emergency room entrance were of details that "common sense would dictate"—such as the fact that the doors opened inward, accommodating paramedics rushing in patients who need immediate attention (31). Moreover, she was brought into the hospital through this very entrance—albeit at night, but the area was well-lit—and could’ve picked up details about it from normal sensory channels then (31-32). The fact that rushing ambulances would traverse a one-way driveway, too, is something anyone could infer from common sense. Finally, Maria’s hospital room was just above the emergency room entrance for a full three days before she had her OBE, and “she could have [easily] gained some sense of the traffic flow from the sounds of the ambulances coming and going” and from nighttime “reflections of vehicle lights” even if she never left her bed.

As we can see, the investigators aren’t claiming that Maria saw the shoe upon her arrival to the ER, but only that she might have gained knowledge of the comings and goings of the ER entrance by ordinary means. I’ll leave it to you to reread the article to find out how Maria may have learned about the shoe in a non-floaty kind of way.

At this point I’ve pretty much reached my limit in correcting your misperceptions (if not outright distortions) of the shoe case.

Have a good one.
She might have? She could have? Common sense?

:rolleyes:

Look, I’m not here to defend this ONE PARTICULAR CASE because I don’t have any reason to accept the article we’re analyzing as true any more than you have to believe the original story nor do I have the ability to verify either account personally. (Neither do you). I’ll note these objections and continue to keep an open mind. However, there are hundreds if not thousands of NDE cases to consider, so while I’ll grant that many (possibly even this one) have plausible natural explanations, would that be equally true of them all?

For the skeptic, the answer MUST be yes. It HAS to be yes.

But for the theist, NDE’s are an interesting topic of conversation but not the bedrock support of his faith.

One final question: Would you agree that verifiable NDEs are worthy of further study as opposed to non-verifiable NDEs?

(Verifiable NDEs are those like the case of Maria’s shoe which can be checked out whereas non-verifiable NDE’s are claims of seeing lights, meeting angels, etc.)
 
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