Atheistic thoughts

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Throughout today I’ve still been torn and thinking on this a lot. I tried to think about God and the various Catholic teachings, but the fact that I now feel like it’s possible that they’re false kind of negates them for me. I keep thinking about how the religion could have been inspired by untrue events, with its teachings as a form of discipline…and it’s becoming harder for me to accept its validity. It’s also hard to stay objective in this case, as I’m trying to determine whether or not God is real…I’m also not sure if I’m sinning through my doubts.

I understand it may help to maintain our faith to avoid atheist viewpoints, but I feel like I’d just be blindly following the faith if I just ignored these doubts.

I feel like I just need to keep researching, praying, and living my life to figure this out.
Simply acknowledging that a particular belief might be wrong shouldn’t be enough to negate belief. It doesn’t follow that just because something might be false that it is false. If you set out trying to find beliefs that cannot possibly be wrong, you’re going to come up pretty empty handed. Worry about your beliefs being reasonable, not indubitable.

And as far as whether or not doubting is a sin, that depends on the doubt. If it’s a sort of sincere questioning or uncertainty, you’re fine. If you’re sort of forcing yourself to doubt because you don’t want to believe, then there is a problem. I think you’re fine.
 
Throughout today I’ve still been torn and thinking on this a lot. I tried to think about God and the various Catholic teachings, but the fact that I now feel like it’s possible that they’re false kind of negates them for me. I keep thinking about how the religion could have been inspired by untrue events, with its teachings as a form of discipline…and it’s becoming harder for me to accept its validity. It’s also hard to stay objective in this case, as I’m trying to determine whether or not God is real…I’m also not sure if I’m sinning through my doubts.

I understand it may help to maintain our faith to avoid atheist viewpoints, but I feel like I’d just be blindly following the faith if I just ignored these doubts.

I feel like I just need to keep researching, praying, and living my life to figure this out.
Have the confidence to expect to find good answers to your questions. You will find them.
 
I spent about three and a half hours looking into this today, so I’m probably just going to relax for the rest of the night and avoid burning out. I have to be careful not to think every single second I’m in doubt, I’m sinning, but I don’t think tears too much of an issue for me.

I tried praying to God and Mary for about an (additional) hour, but all the while I was feeling unconfident. Atheistic belief has swayed me into feeling like God could be a made-up being that we’re conditioned to believe in. I’m worried that my prayers aren’t reaching anyone. I’m also concerned that if I get too confident in atheistic belief or Catholic belief, I’d be ignoring the problems and mindsets I was facing earlier. After all, this started because I realized I never actually questioned the faith I grew up with and treated like fact.
 
I spent about three and a half hours looking into this today, so I’m probably just going to relax for the rest of the night and avoid burning out. I have to be careful not to think every single second I’m in doubt, I’m sinning, but I don’t think tears too much of an issue for me.

I tried praying to God and Mary for about an (additional) hour, but all the while I was feeling unconfident. Atheistic belief has swayed me into feeling like God could be a made-up being that we’re conditioned to believe in. I’m worried that my prayers aren’t reaching anyone. I’m also concerned that if I get too confident in atheistic belief or Catholic belief, I’d be ignoring the problems and mindsets I was facing earlier. After all, this started because I realized I never actually questioned the faith I grew up with and treated like fact.
Then it sounds like more of a psychological strain than a true intellectual one… Realize that if you are afraid of thinking this or that, or if you are looking for a certain “feeling” when using your mind, that can become obsessive and unclear, or even counterproductive.

Go on and ask questions. But get specific - there can’t be good answers if there aren’t good questions - and take them to the forums that address them. Or approach someone who can address your question “IRL”.
 
Through my searching, I’ve gotten a rather lengthy response that I’d like to see the Catholic perspective on. I’ll split it into two posts.
I was raised in a household where the Christian god was believed in but not actively worshiped. We did not read the Bible or attend church. Most of my religious experiences came from spending time with my grandmother, who was a devout Baptist. Nothing that happened to me drove me away from the religion; I was overall apathetic to it. I considered myself agnostic through much of my adolescence. It wasn’t until I entered college that I gave further thought to the god idea, and I started asking serious questions.
I remember staring up at the stars one night. It had never occurred to me before just how small Earth and humanity are, and how overwhelmingly large the universe was. I looked up, and I saw so many stars. Hundreds. More than I could count. And each star was billions of miles away, and each one had planets orbiting around it. There were millions of other solar systems out there, millions of celestial bodies and millions of miles of space between them, just in our galaxy alone. And our galaxy, too, was just one in billions. Our planet is no more significant than a grain of sand on a beach.
I guess I always knew that, but fully contemplating it made me ask: How can humanity be the centerpiece of any diety’s plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? I searched for an answer to this question, and the only response I kept getting was “the rest of it was for the glory of god, like him playing around with the universe before creating us”. That didn’t satisfy me. He could make whatever he wanted, but instead of making other worlds of beauty and life, he made virtually everything off our planet desolate and inhospitable. Environments that would kill us if we took one breath of its air. And most of it is just empty space, empty space that we cannot survive in without complex scientific equipment. We cannot populate 99.9% of the universe. So, what then, god just put it there for the looks?
And another question came to mind. If a being existed that was so vast and powerful it could create a universe as large and infinitely complex as the one we exist in… why the hell would that being care about humanity? To such a being we would appear as less than ants, and yet it would go through the trouble of writing a book, of creating a “son” in the form of one of us, of judging us for our behaviors, of caring who we slept with, of caring whether we worshiped it? No. That was nonsensical to me. If a god created this universe, this universe so so big, it would not give a single f*** if an ape descendant got on its knees and prayed to it. Such a being would not require validation from something so small. Believing that we are that special, that a god would care about us, was arrogance on the part of our species. It was humanity looking for meaning in its own existence, looking for some reassurance that we are not just evolved animals that came about through various mutations and millions of years of natural selection.
But that was not the only thing driving me from theism. I came to an understanding that the afterlife probably did not exist. I figured that everything we are, everything that makes us us, is entirely a product of our brains. Our personality, our memories, our fears, our emotions, our hopes, our motivations, our ability to comprehend language and solve complex problems and make connections… all of that can be explained with a course in physiology and psychology. It’s all a result of completely material processes. And it ends, every single bit of it, when we die. Our brain shuts off, our body stops functioning, and we are gone. The brain does not transcend to a different state of being; there is no afterlife for it. It just… stops. And if that is the case, then what is carried into the afterlife? It can’t be us, because the thing that made us who we are is gone. I began to realize that the afterlife was a story, created by humans frightened of death, of a life that ends when our mortal bodies do. I’ve heard it said that animals have no soul, that there is no afterlife for them, not in Christian theology. Why are we so different? Because our brain is more advanced, because we are more evolved? That doesn’t prove the soul’s existence, and thus it doesn’t prove an afterlife. There is no reason to believe in a soul aside from the fact that a book is telling you to. And without a soul, without the afterlife, the Christian god’s entire existence is thrown into serious question.
 
Continued…
But beyond even that, I contemplated a world where there was no god, and what such a world would look like. I imagined it would be filled with harsh, barren planets, life capable of existing on only a scarce few. I imagined it would be filled, most of it, with empty, useless space. I imagined it would run on completely observable systems, on natural processes that could be tested and understood. I imagined that “miracles”, or instances of suspending the natural order, would be few and far between. And I imagined that defying the natural order would be impossible (example, a human amputee spontaneously waking up with a limb regrown, or a certified dead person walking around the next week with no other apparent reason than that someone prayed for it). I imagined that life would only come into existence through struggle, through survival of the fittest, through many species dying out mercilessly because they were not strong enough to make it, leaving only the most adaptable to breed and pass on their genes. I imagined that if an intelligent species eventually evolved, it would very likely turn to magic and mysticism to answer the questions it had. I imagined such a species would proclaim storms to be the work of the gods, and the seasons to be the work of the gods, and the sun and the moon to be the work of the gods. I imagined, as that species grew older, and matured, the gods it believed in would change and evolve, with many falling out of memory and others taking up fame and popularity, much like a free market economy. I imagined, as that species learned more of the world it inhabited, its gods would turn into, as Neil Degrasse Tyson so eloquently phrased it, “an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance”. I imagined that believers in these gods would look for solid evidence for their deity, but find none, and thus be forced to turn to supernatural claims that could not be proven or disproven, and unreliable or biased anecdotal evidence to support the existence of such a being.
I imagined a world just like ours.
I cannot say for a certainty that no god exists, as I do not know everything. But thus far in my life, I have looked at the world and drawn the conclusion that there is probably not a god, in the same way that there are probably no unicorns and elves.
 
  1. How can humanity be the centerpiece of any deity’s plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe?
My Answer: God loves us that much.
  1. Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it?
My Answer: Personally, I am looking forward to spending part of my heaven … exploring the heavens. And with a glorified body, it could well be that I won’t even need a space ship to do it. I want to see a comet close up. Explore other worlds, observe quasars, visit some of these other galaxies and solar systems, etc.
  1. Why would God care about us?
My Answer: God is love.
  1. Afterlife?
My Answer: The martyrs believed in it enough to give their lives for it.
  1. Lack of miracles in today’s modern world?
My Answer: Goes along with the lack of faith in today’s modern world. That said, there are still miracles in today’s modern world … there are also skeptics around who deny them.

 
I brought up your points to gain an atheist perspective on them, and this is a response I got.
  1. What does God “love”? Humanity as a species or individual human beings? If you love someone, then you desire that which is best for them. If you are able to provide that which is best for them or prevent that which will prove harmful from taking effect, and moreover, you can do so at no cost to yourself, then you immediately bring that which is best for them to fruition… without fail. But we observe that God fails at this continuously, for individuals and for humanity as a species. So much for 1 Corinthians 13:8!
  1. This person believes that in their “glorified” body they’re going to fly around the Milky Way galaxy and explore black holes? Well, ****. At least Mormonism promises to make you a god over your own planet. But if this whole life everlasting is really everlasting, believe me, you’ll outlast the interesting things that there are to see and do. Unless the idea of flying around large chunks of rock and giant balls of gas strikes you as an activity that could literally never get old… similar to how I view humankind’s extraordinary vanity and the foolish thoughts it puts into motion.
  1. God is love? But I thought God loves. So, love loves? If I love my dog, do I God my dog? What does that mean? I love good feelings. Then is it correct to say that I God good feelings? But I thought God was good. So must I God God feelings? Hmm. It seems that, literally, God is not love, but rather love is an expression of God that He is alleged to display from time to time… but in a timeless way.
  1. Which martyrs? We’re talking about Greeks? Persians? Jews? Muslims? Christians?
  1. Define “miracle.” What does it matter if any of those involved possess faith? What evidence is there for a miracle, and what justification can one mount that this is related to their pet metaphysical entities?
 
  1. God loves both humanity as a species, as well as each individual human being.
  2. Heaven is about far more than exploring outer space. You asked what all the planets were for, I answered with one possibility.
  3. God is love, and God loves.
  4. The martyrs who died for Christ.
  5. You were the one who brought up the question on miracles in the first place. So how do you, personally, define a miracle? (Without going to an atheist website to define it for you …)
 
The mere fact that this person’s beliefs are founded on what they don’t understand and what doesn’t make sense, right away discredits the whole argument, to decide something is truth because of what you don’t know is about the weakest argument you could have, truth and belief is based off of logic and reason, not a lack thereof.
But nevertheless, I will try to address these questions.
How can humanity be the centerpiece of any diety’s plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? I searched for an answer to this question, and the only response I kept getting was “the rest of it was for the glory of god, like him playing around with the universe before creating us”. That didn’t satisfy me. He could make whatever he wanted, but instead of making other worlds of beauty and life, he made virtually everything off our planet desolate and inhospitable. Environments that would kill us if we took one breath of its air. And most of it is just empty space, empty space that we cannot survive in without complex scientific equipment. We cannot populate 99.9% of the universe. So, what then, god just put it there for the looks?
God, first of all, chose to create the universe, the world we live in, all the creatures that live here, and the human race, He chose of His own free will, with no obligation whatsoever, no need to create anything, because He Himself is perfect, and perfectly happy, and had no need of anything, however, God is not predictable, and we do not understand His ways, He is free to do what He wishes, but that doesn’t not mean He does random things which amuse Himself, He does create things and allow things for a purpose, not knowing that purpose does not automatically make them useless or pointless.
although we can’t claim to know all the reasons God made the universe in all it’s vastness and with all it’s matter, we can see that it was made to be useful, for example, the stars at night(especially before electricity was discovered) lighted the earth for people to be able to see their way, is that not a good enough reason? can you imagine the night time with complete darkness? light is essential for many things, though today we may not realize all those things since it’s greatly taken for granite,
we also cannot dismiss that God created some things simply for our enjoyment, or for us to see His own greatness by His wonderful creations.
If a being existed that was so vast and powerful it could create a universe as large and infinitely complex as the one we exist in… why the hell would that being care about humanity? To such a being we would appear as less than ants, and yet it would go through the trouble of writing a book, of creating a “son” in the form of one of us, of judging us for our behaviors, of caring who we slept with, of caring whether we worshiped it? No. That was nonsensical to me. If a god created this universe, this universe so so big, it would not give a single f*** if an ape descendant got on its knees and prayed to it. Such a being would not require validation from something so small. Believing that we are that special, that a god would care about us, was arrogance on the part of our species. It was humanity looking for meaning in its own existence, looking for some reassurance that we are not just evolved animals that came about through various mutations and millions of years of natural selection.
perhaps if man was not created by God and we just happened to come out of random events without His consent, then this argument might hold some kinda weight to it, but the reason God created this universe and this world was only for us, and we can see this by the fact that this life is only temporary, we will all one day pass to the next life, which is nothing like the one we know now, we cannot even imagine what God has waiting for us in the next life,
i know many will take that as a very self centered point of view and selfish, as if we are so deserving? well, no, we are not deserving, we are nothing of ourselves and worthy of nothing, all we are are creatures, but with one great difference from every other creation and creature on this planet, we have an immortal soul, that alone sets us apart, the world will pass away, but we will live forever, and the mere fact that we alone live on and the world will pass away, says that the world was made for us, because it will only be here as long as it’s useful, when there are no longer people on the earth, it will cease to be useful, and then pass away.

we are special to God because He created us out of love, He wants to have someone to love and someone to love Him(though He does not need us at all, He would be perfectly happy with or without us, as i said before, He is free to choose)
it can’t be too hard to understand, after all, why does a mother love her child? often even before it’s born? why love someone who a short time before was not even thought of? and now, here is a little person, not really useful for anything, can’t think, can’t communicate, can’t walk or even lift it’s little head without assistance…but we love them, they are part of us, they bring us great joy just to be with them and watch them and interact with them…cannot God be the same? can He not love us simply because He made us? because we are a part of Him?

(continued in next post)
 
and what does the vastness of the universe have to do with whether or not God cares about us? the problem with all of your arguments, is the assumption that God thinks as we do, or that we can figure out the thoughts and reasons of an infinite being who knows everything, which is far beyond any of our understanding,
think about it this way, if God exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful, then shouldn’t our reasoning be, "Who are we to question Gods motives and reasons, we who are so ignorant and small in our understanding, how can we begin to understand an all knowing and infinite being, let alone question Him or try to figure Him out?’
of course that’s not to say that we shouldn’t question things are try to figure things out, but the point is, to say that we won’t believe in God because we don’t understand how or why He did something or why He cares about something, is like saying you don’t believe in someone just because you don’t know why they made something, like, i don’t believe in the person who invented the telephone, it makes no sense to me, i can’t figure it out, therefore whoever made it doesn’t really exist…
there can be so many reasons why God created us and why He loves us and why He allows certain things to happen which we are not even aware of, although there are many reasons that He has revealed to us, but there are many more reasons which have not been revealed, things we will not understand until we make it to heaven.

to say it is arrogance to think we are special in God eyes is like a baby(if they could think) to say it’s arrogance to think my mommy and daddy love me just because they created me…there is so much we don’t know or understand, but there is still so much we can know and understand just by looking at the simple things in life.
I came to an understanding that the afterlife probably did not exist. I figured that everything we are, everything that makes us us, is entirely a product of our brains. Our personality, our memories, our fears, our emotions, our hopes, our motivations, our ability to comprehend language and solve complex problems and make connections… all of that can be explained with a course in physiology and psychology. It’s all a result of completely material processes. And it ends, every single bit of it, when we die. Our brain shuts off, our body stops functioning, and we are gone. The brain does not transcend to a different state of being; there is no afterlife for it. It just… stops. And if that is the case, then what is carried into the afterlife? It can’t be us, because the thing that made us who we are is gone. I began to realize that the afterlife was a story, created by humans frightened of death, of a life that ends when our mortal bodies do. I’ve heard it said that animals have no soul, that there is no afterlife for them, not in Christian theology. Why are we so different? Because our brain is more advanced, because we are more evolved? That doesn’t prove the soul’s existence, and thus it doesn’t prove an afterlife. There is no reason to believe in a soul aside from the fact that a book is telling you to. And without a soul, without the afterlife, the Christian god’s entire existence is thrown into serious question.
But beyond even that, I contemplated a world where there was no god, and what such a world would look like. I imagined it would be filled with harsh, barren planets, life capable of existing on only a scarce few. I imagined it would be filled, most of it, with empty, useless space. I imagined it would run on completely observable systems, on natural processes that could be tested and understood. I imagined that “miracles”, or instances of suspending the natural order, would be few and far between. And I imagined that defying the natural order would be impossible (example, a human amputee spontaneously waking up with a limb regrown, or a certified dead person walking around the next week with no other apparent reason than that someone prayed for it). I imagined that life would only come into existence through struggle, through survival of the fittest, through many species dying out mercilessly because they were not strong enough to make it, leaving only the most adaptable to breed and pass on their genes. I imagined that if an intelligent species eventually evolved, it would very likely turn to magic and mysticism to answer the questions it had. I imagined such a species would proclaim storms to be the work of the gods, and the seasons to be the work of the gods, and the sun and the moon to be the work of the gods. I imagined, as that species grew older, and matured, the gods it believed in would change and evolve, with many falling out of memory and others taking up fame and popularity, much like a free market economy. I imagined, as that species learned more of the world it inhabited, its gods would turn into, as Neil Degrasse Tyson so eloquently phrased it, “an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance”. I imagined that believers in these gods would look for solid evidence for their deity, but find none, and thus be forced to turn to supernatural claims that could not be proven or disproven, and unreliable or biased anecdotal evidence to support the existence of such a being.
I imagined a world just like ours.
(continued in next post)
 
of course you imagined a world just like ours, you can’t imagine anything beyond what has already been revealed to you, our imaginations are limited to our knowledge,
this last argument is rather hard to address, simply because it is based off of an argument of “i believe it’s probably this way because in my own mind i imagined these things and i came up with everything i know about the world around me”…not really a solid foundation for atheism.

the problem here is, this person has chosen not to believe in something because they can’t explain or understand it, and so they have chosen instead to believe in something else which they equally cannot explain or understand…

I, as a catholic, may not know or understand everything about God and His teachings and reasons for what He does, but i know enough to be perfectly convinced without a doubt in my mind that He is real and the teachings He revealed through His church are truth, i have considered many things and heard many arguments, none of which i could not find a satisfactory answer for, and none of which shook my faith in any way.
one big contributing factor of course is the virtue of faith, which is infused by God, so i cannot take credit for it myself.

Balaco, pray for faith, only God can give it to you, not knowledge of things or your own human understanding, it must be given to you.
also, please post some of your own doubts and questions, i’m sure everyone would much rather discuss those with you rather than someone elses arguments(or so called)

(that was 3 posts in all btw, please don’t miss my first one cause it was on the previous page)
 
What is your defense on miracles, guys? I’ve been looking into the concept a bit: I’m gathering atheists generally view “supernatural” events or miracles as events that, aside from potentially being lies/distortions of reality thanks to our minds, may simply be out of the windows/models of logic that the religious create.

Looking at this objectively, it seems like belief in these events is another concept that the religious are inclined to believe and defend. Something out of the ordinary may happen, and the minds of the religious are conditioned to feel like it’s due to God’s intervention.
 
What is your defense on miracles, guys? I’ve been looking into the concept a bit: I’m gathering atheists generally view “supernatural” events or miracles as events that, aside from potentially being lies/distortions of reality thanks to our minds, may simply be out of the windows/models of logic that the religious create.

Looking at this objectively, it seems like belief in these events is another concept that the religious are inclined to believe and defend. Something out of the ordinary may happen, and the minds of the religious are conditioned to feel like it’s due to God’s intervention.
In my last post to you, I said,

“5) You were the one who brought up the question on miracles in the first place. So how do you, personally, define a miracle? (Without going to an atheist website to define it for you …)”

Apparently, you’ve gone to an atheist website to help you come up with the definition of a miracle based on their propaganda rather than giving an answer from your own heart and mind.

 
In my last post to you, I said,

“5) You were the one who brought up the question on miracles in the first place. So how do you, personally, define a miracle? (Without going to an atheist website to define it for you …)”

Apparently, you’ve gone to an atheist website to help you come up with the definition of a miracle based on their propaganda rather than giving an answer from your own heart and mind.

Looks like I missed your post skimming through the topic. My last post isn’t necessarily my definition of miracles, just a summary of what I’ve read from an atheist standpoint. Maybe I could’ve worded my post better. I would define miracles as acts of God that seem to go against what we consider natural law, to spread his power/help us. I’ve been looking into the validity of miracles objectively.
 
Would it be alright for me to link to the atheist forum thread I’ve been posting in? I’m not seeing anything against it in the rules. They’re interested in expanding the discussion with more theists.
 
I would define miracles as acts of God that seem to go against what we consider natural law, to spread his power/help us.
Thanks, this is something I can work with. Main thing I would change would be to capitalize “His”. And I would say that there are indeed cases where miracles as acts of God actually do go beyond and transcend natural law, into the realm of the supernatural.
I’ve been looking into the validity of miracles objectively.
When you say you’ve been looking into the validity of miracles objectively … what sources are you using as a reference to do your research, beyond atheist websites?
 
When you say you’ve been looking into the validity of miracles objectively … what sources are you using as a reference to do your research, beyond atheist websites?
I’m looking into various Catholic websites and justifications as well. I figured I’d see what the Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut is on this forum as I do so.
 
Would it be alright for me to link to the atheist forum thread I’ve been posting in? I’m not seeing anything against it in the rules. They’re interested in expanding the discussion with more theists.
Well, even though I’ve been around this forum for years, I really haven’t gotten into this particular kind of debate much (and if you haven’t noticed already, you likely will see that I probably won’t respond as you might expect a debate like this to normally go) … 🙂

Simply put, I’m not a moderator and am not sure about whether linking to an atheist forum thread is allowed or not … maybe you could send a private message to a moderator and ask first?

 
I’m looking into various Catholic websites and justifications as well. I figured I’d see what the Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut is on this forum as I do so.
Good, that seems fair.
 
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