Atheistic thoughts

[the_phoenix]

Regarding Miracles:

My Own Personal Experience with the 54 Day Rosary Novena

From November, 2010 through about the middle of February, 2011 I was working as a contractor on a temporary job assignment. Thing is, I had been told right before Christmas that about a week after Christmas it was likely I would no longer be needed, since my project was due the first of the year, and then there was just minor clean-up work.

So on the first of the year, January 1, 2011, I began a 54-day Rosary Novena for employment. And guess what? One more Rosary, one more day of employment. One more Rosary, one more day of employment. Every day I said a Rosary, I was blessed with another day of work. … Finally on exactly the 54th day, came the end of that job assignment, which I finished successfully and came away with a good reference. Considering that I was told to expect that my job would end right around January 1, I consider the extension of my job for 54 days to be miraculous.

Meanwhile, just as my old job was ending, a new employer wanted to hire me for a part-time position. It seemed pretty risky at the time, but felt like the right direction to go based on the timing of the Novena prayers. The experience I gained there helped position me to get into a good full-time job.

So I would say, be open to God’s Will … and while you’re praying for your novena intention, you should add that you’re open to, and then actually BE open to, God’s Will if His answer is different from what you were expecting.

And also, it’s not all a picnic even when your prayers get answered. I should point out that I was really sick with possibly either bronchitis or walking pneumonia while I had the contract job and the temp agency had told me I was not allowed to take any sick time, so I had to work while really sick for weeks. As for the part-time job … well, let’s just say many things about it were rather unusual and the money wasn’t what I was used to … but I knew it was exactly where God … and Mary … wanted me to be. It was all just too coincidental, and I was very grateful. So prayers do get answered, but that won’t automatically mean things will be what you might expect.

…

 

[Balaco]

I was told I can’t link it.

 

[e_c]

What is your defense on miracles, guys? I’ve been looking into the concept a bit: I’m gathering atheists generally view “supernatural” events or miracles as events that, aside from potentially being lies/distortions of reality thanks to our minds, may simply be out of the windows/models of logic that the religious create.

Looking at this objectively, it seems like belief in these events is another concept that the religious are inclined to believe and defend. Something out of the ordinary may happen, and the minds of the religious are conditioned to feel like it’s due to God’s intervention.

Ok. Here is the “brass tax”: do you trust people based on how they witness to what they say, or do you not?

The issue of the existence of God is separate. You can prove that with paper and pencil, no need look for miracles - just look for there existing ANYTHING, and realize that causes and effects, contingency, corruptible composition, and intrinsic purposes are all clear and infallibly point to the need for some First Cause which is uncreated, simple, infinite, etc., which we call “God.” That God entering into creation by act (and by flesh) is something else… You are conflating the two. The first is answered by philosophy, the second by theology.

My suggestion is to stop playing cat and mouse with miracles (and other opinions, especially the most unfriendly ones, as puerile as their critiques tend to be) and read the New Testament instead, recognizing at what horrible personal cost those texts were written and transmitted over the Earth by those who claimed to have been there and saw it all for themselves or to have spoken at length with those who were there.

 

[Balaco]

Ok. Here is the “brass tax”: do you trust people based on how they witness to what they say, or do you not?

The issue of the existence of God is separate. You can prove that with paper and pencil, no need look for miracles - just look for there existing ANYTHING, and realize that causes and effects, contingency, corruptible composition, and intrinsic purposes are all clear and infallibly point to the need for some First Cause which is uncreated, simple, infinite, etc., which we call “God.” That God entering into creation by act (and by flesh) is something else… You are conflating the two. The first is answered by philosophy, the second by theology.

My suggestion is to stop playing cat and mouse with miracles (and other opinions, especially the most unfriendly ones, as puerile as their critiques tend to be) and read the New Testament instead, recognizing at what horrible personal cost those texts were written and transmitted over the Earth by those who claimed to have been there and saw it all for themselves or to have spoken at length with those who were there.

I’ve been examining miracles objectively to determine if there’s a natural explanation for them, but either way being skeptical of them alone isn’t enough for me to leave the faith.

 

[ethereality]

God doesn’t allow us universally undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith.

I would disagree with this statement if you mean, “God doesn’t give us sufficient evidence because He wants us to have faith.” See for example the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, Portugal c. 1917. Allegedly thousands saw it within a religious context, so that they were told in advance what the cause would be: It would be unreasonable for those witnesses to deny God as the responsible agent. Even being given this “proof” of God’s existence, though, I think the virtue of faith still must be practiced by them, as I think these witnesses later encountered suffering they had to work to overcome or endure.

I am also struggling with the temptation of atheism, although at an older age. I don’t think it’s correct to say that God tests faith by withholding evidence, though.

it’s not considered sin to be having these atheistic thoughts?

Temptations are not sins. The sin would be to blaspheme or deny the faith, to choose to disbelieve what the Church declares dogmatically.

As long as I am legitimately putting a general effort into understanding my faith, is it acceptable to use some free time with my friends or myself for just my leisure – or should I be spending as much time directly researching this [as possible]?

Ration your time. Mental health (i.e. relaxing with friends) is important, and even recommended by the Bible (read the book of Sirach! note Sirach 30:23 which literally says “Distract yourself and renew your courage”).

As a means to rationing time, I make a spreadsheet and use a timer. 24 hours minus 8 for sleep gives 16 hours, 1% of daily activity being ~10 minutes (i.e. 9.6 minutes). As a teenager, ideally you should be learning about the world, and this includes both religion (to ascertain what reality contains) and jobs – now is the time to ascertain what you want to spend your life doing. Don’t go blind into college and accumulate a ridiculous amount of student loan debt, a common and crippling problem today. Spend time learning what jobs are available – browse job websites – and find a job that interests you and see what degree, experience, or knowledge is needed to do it. American high schools prepare you for college, i.e. prepare you for debt – they don’t prepare you for life. In addition to your homework, I say study religion, and also study potential jobs listed on job websites …

So

1. 
   *]spend time with friends for mental health
   *]get As in all your high school classes
   *]study the job market in addition to your homework to learn what career you want and what degree is needed for it, and what the best school is for that degree, and what you need to do to get into that school to get that degree to get that job
   *]study religion, philosophy, history to learn what reality is
   *]ration your time so you can start out well to live a good life

 

[e_c]

I’ve been examining miracles objectively to determine if there’s a natural explanation for them, but either way being skeptical of them alone isn’t enough for me to leave the faith.

I understand that.

You may give the Book of Exodus a read - or the Gospels - and see that miracles happening in front of one’s eyes don’t create faith. There might be a momentary thrill, but that is not worth much.

The fact that you desire to believe means you think that the object of belief is good - so in some way you hold it as true, since propositions are only good if they are true, right? This can even be hidden to oneself…

There is a distinction between faith and knowledge. One comes from authority, the other from direct experience. There are certain things which in this world can only be accessed by authority… It is not satisfying to the intellect which has not yet humbled itself, because we really want that direct experiential knowledge. But this sets up an exercise in futility. It is only when you are willing to admit openly that you can’t demonstrate this or that but are willing to trust the witnesses to those things that the restlessness will decrease.

Looking at miracles or the lives of the saints can help dispose to this, but such are not sufficient conditions. Start asking more help from God than from the internet, and you will find yourself advancing in peace and wisdom and faith.

These are hard-earned lessons from me to you.

 

[Balaco]

Thanks for the advice.

On a side note, I’ve been seeing the number 66 a few times lately, though I’m pretty sure it’s just a simple coincidence (it was only 2-3 times) and my mind is just fixated on it and making too much note of it. Could this be a sign from God as I continue to do this research, or am I thinking too much about it?

 

[Balaco]

Thanks for the advice.

On a side note, I’ve been seeing the number 66 a few times lately, though I’m pretty sure it’s just a simple coincidence (it was only 2-3 times) and my mind is just fixated on it and making too much note of it. Could this be a sign from God as I continue to do this research, or am I thinking too much about it?

Ironically I just realized this was my 66th post.

 

[ethereality]

That is good irony, but the thinking I would call superstition. I think it is foolish to assume coincidences are providential, and nowhere in the Bible do I see this thinking supported, whereas the Catechism discourages it.

 

[Balaco]

Good to know, I probably shouldn’t think much of it then.

I had something on my mind earlier…with my doubts is it possible for me to still be perfectly contrite/make a perfect act of contrition?

On another note, e_c, I was asked by an atheist to inquire about one of your earlier points…

I’d like you to ask e_c regarding his assertion that early christians wouldn’t die for a lie if islam is also true as millions also died for that (some of whom are dying this very day), or if nazism is true (considering the thousands of Waffen SS and Wehrmacht recruits who died in the sincere belief that Hitler was right).

Just because people are willing to give their lives for an idea, that doesn’t give it a free pass on showing the idea is right.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

Good to know, I probably shouldn’t think much of it then.

I had something on my mind earlier…with my doubts is it possible for me to still be perfectly contrite/make a perfect act of contrition?

On another note, e_c, I was asked by an atheist to inquire about one of your earlier points…

Something to keep in mind when it comes to people’s willingness to suffer and even die for their beliefs is that most of those situations only speak to the strength of those people’s convictions, not the truth of their beliefs. A Muslim suicide bomber probably believes very strongly that Islam is true, but that doesn’t really count as evidence for Islam in and if itself. It may be a good indicator that that person had other good evidence to convince them, but those reasons would need to be identified and evaluated on their own.

There is a different kind of situation, however, where the person risking harm is in a position to know whether or not a particular belief is true. In those cases, we can say that it is unlikely that a person would be willing to suffer great harm or death for something they knew to be a lie. Unlikely, but not impossible; we can think of particular instances of cult leaders who died for things they themselves made up, and we can come up with other hypothetical reasons that a person would be willing to die for something they knew was a lie.

The martyrdom stories about the apostles is an example of the second situation; they were in a position to know whether or not the Resurrection actually happened, so a lot of people see their martyrdom as string evidence that they actually witnessed a resurrected Jesus. Personally, I find some of the hypotheticals I mentioned previously to be more likely than an actual resurrection, and I think that the accounts of the deaths of the apostles to be dubious or not to contain enough of the right information to support the argument, so I don’t find it very compelling myself. But lots of people do. That will have to be your call if you decide to start examining that.

 

[dilleachta]

I’ve been questioning how to improve in my Roman Catholic faith lately…but this morning I came to the realization that I never really questioned my faith itself. I was lightly raised Catholic and recently took it upon myself to grow closer to God. Now, for probably the first time in my life, I feel like I’m genuinely considering atheism as a possibility.

Atheists do not accept the possibility of a supernatural being, and restrict themselves to our “natural” human thinking. Previously I thought that atheists are simply conditioned by society to the point where they are unable to “rationally” believe in a supernatural being…God doesn’t allow us universally undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith. Now, though, I feel like it’s impossible to tell whether that mindset is correct, or whether atheists are correct in their focusing on our natural human mindsets.

I do feel like I’ve felt something while praying throughout the past. The other night, for example, I was planning on praying for about fifteen minutes, but felt oddly calm and ended up taking about an hour. Now I feel like that could have just been because I was comfortable, and my mind was “making things up” as I was more convinced in my faith.

I know this isn’t something I’m likely going to overcome overnight. Asking here is obviously going to get me answers supporting Catholicism. Asking atheists is going to get me answers supporting atheism. Each side is going to try to denounce the other’s claims, passionately believing in their own correctness. But I take it that it’s not considered sin to be having these atheistic thoughts? I feel extremely confused now, though I plan on continuing to pray as I sort this out. I want to say I’m going to continue to love God with all my actions, but now I don’t know if I can since I’m genuinely considering the possibility of leaving the faith. I also don’t know if I should be viewing this objectively or if I should be leaning towards Catholicism.

I am a high school student trying to balance out the increase in my schoolwork, trying to spend more time with my family, trying to improve my social life, trying to balance out my alone time, and now trying to be confident in my faith. As long as I am legitimately putting a general effort into understanding my faith, is it acceptable to use some free time with my friends or myself for just my leisure – or should I be spending as much time directly researching this?

I wonder if the consideration of leaving the faith is coming from a deeper hunger for the truth- which is a good thing. The hunger for truth is a very good thing because it is truly a hunger for God (as He has written this on our hearts). This could be your response to God calling you to a much deeper relationship with Him. Yes, I’m Catholic, but I wasn’t always. Question everything. There are answers. Atheistic and relativistic arguments can seem catchy and clever, but I have not encountered one that is really compelling yet. Christianity (Catholicism specifically) is very reasonable. Reason and faith are not at odds, they compliment one another. Don’t shy away from these questions- follow them and seek answers with an open heart and eyes of faith (and reason!).

Fr. Robert Barron (now Bishop) was instrumental in my conversion- he is incredibly intelligent and delivered intriguing answers about our faith in a way I could absorb: wordonfire.org/

Here is another resource that brings Atheists and Christians (from a Catholic perspective specifically) together for dialogue: strangenotions.com/

Don’t give up- but also don’t just give in to the idea of Atheism. Seek Truth.

 

[Balaco]

After a good amount of research, I figured I would type up and take note of points in favor of atheism that seem like they make sense to me. I’d like to see some Catholic responses.

• -It seems like there’s an atheistic explanation for anything theistic.
• -David C. Pack’s videos for example have atheist AronRa apparently refuting every single point…with what seems to be valid logic.

Of course, the logic needs to be valid for these two points to be valid.

• While God “can’t” be disproven, could that be because the religion justifies it (possibly irrationally) in way so that God “technically” “can’t” be disproven?
• Theistic arguments might ignore/unreasonably stretch facts to defend God.
• Miracles for example may have logical, natural explanations…but theists might put them in a perspective that “technically” “can’t” be disproven by involving God. I’m not outright denying miracles.
• Bible contradictions might also be an example…may be legitimate contradictions that prove the Bible is unreliable…or there really could be a valid theist explanation
• God/religion could be a manifestation of our minds/personalities
• ^We might feel good when we feel like we’ve pleased God, bad when we feel like we’ve offended him…because our minds have formed the idea/image of him
• Faith can be so strong and widespread because of how we’re conditioned to it from birth…so hard to let go because of the risk of God being real and atheists being wrong (“The fool says in their heart there is no God.”) (definitely can connect to this myself)
• Many people don’t even question their faith due to their conditioning (again, this applies to me) and continue to justify it without looking at potentially valid atheistic points
• Which supports why religion is so geographical
• Faith may grow in complexity due to justifications (rational or irrational) to stop people from denying the faith
• Many religions seemed to have started out in ancient times to serve as an explanation for things that weren’t understood (sickness, natural disasters)
• Scientists are predominantly atheist possibly because they find the answers to those things that weren’t understood

 

[the_phoenix]

Hi Balaco,

Your “points” contain terms like “many”, “could be”, “may be”, “might”, “seem”, and “possibly” … too much conjecture going on there for my logical blood. Can you provide any actual facts to back up your surmisals?

Anyways, I prayed for you today at Mass.

I hope you will return the favor and pray for me sometime.

…

 

[Balaco]

When I was typing up those points, I made sure not to have them typed as definitive fact as I still wasn’t sure of their validity and need to back them up. I’ll see to supporting them and will likely bring that up here.

Thank you for your prayers, I’ll be sure to do the same.

 

[AllezOM1992]

Hi Balaco,

I myself went through a similar period in my life where I questioned the same things you are questioning, an existential crisis. If I could give just one reason of why I believe in God, it starts with the fundamental conviction and prerequisite that humans cannot and will never achieve full understanding of this world, something that many atheists arrogantly believe is possible.

I didn’t know it at the time, but I needed something other than traditional Church literature/doctrine/writings to help me understand why we as Catholics believe what we believe. Many atheists don’t know it, but religion (Catholicism included) is heavily rooted in philosophy. I suggest you read some Christian literature, especially The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. This book, which in itself is a kind of philosophical debate, shook me to the core and helped me turn back to the faith I rejected several years ago. Or check out St. Thomas Aquinas’s philosophy.

Hope this help!

 

[Balaco]

A certain question popped into my mind, and I think finding the correct answer is going to be extremely important: “Does God really give every single one of us a sufficient chance to follow whatever the ‘one true faith’ may be…or is that just made up to defend religions?”

Obviously theists are going to support the first part of that question while atheists are going to support the second. Thinking on this question for a bit, I was thinking about how Jews and Muslims firmly believe in their faith like I and many Christians have. Many Christians, Jews, and Muslims follow their faiths for their entire lives, trusting in their faith. Some will convert, but even then, who says they’ve converted to the “correct” faith? A Jew might convert to Christianity…identifying as Protestant. Another Jew might convert also convert to Christianity, and follow Catholicism. Both firmly believing in their faith towards the denomination of Christianity that they follow. They’ve probably researched religion with some level of thoroughness and made their choice, trusting in their faith to lead them to the answer.

Yet here we see two different concluded answers. Both assumedly believing that God led them to the correct faith. I don’t know all that much about Protestantism, but I know the Catholic Church definitely considers itself the one true Church of God and discourages dissent of its general teachings. Despite this, one person researched both types of religion and found Protestantism to be correct; likely remaining Protestant for the rest of their lives. Even within Christianity, we have people from all different faiths feeling like God undeniably led them to the correct faith/denomination.