Atheists and Agnostics: If God isn't real then why do you have such a problem with Him?

[Holly3278]

If God is not real, then why do you have such a problem with Him, Atheists and Agnostics?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I am Catholic.

I don’t think atheists could accept your presupposition, Holly. I tend to think that they have a problem with those of us who say we believe in God, and have a message from Him that affects society as a whole and them individually. This would probably explain better why at times atheists can be “evangelistic”. They think the world would be better without what is to them, a mythological belief system which in their mind, holds back societal progress in many ways.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

If God is not real, then why do you have such a problem with Him, Atheists and Agnostics?

I have a cousin who is Agnostic and she tells me that basically she doesn’t know if there is a God or not and it doesn’t concern her one way or another if there is.

She says that she understands why ancient peoples created religions as they did not have knowledge we have today to explain things. She feels that religion in general, due to the advancement of humanity, is completely outdated.

Plus, she says religion is a danger to the human race as there have been so many deaths and killing as a direct result of people of faith: Muslim vs. Christian, Protestant vs. Catholic, Hindu vs. Muslim etc. just in her lifetime alone. Then she compounds that with every century there are multiple “religious” based wars/killings.

She does have a problem with God - but has a real problem with people who have “religion”.

She believes religion not only to be archaic, but also danger to humanity.

 

[AntiTheist]

If God is not real, then why do you have such a problem with Him, Atheists and Agnostics?

It’s not that atheists and agnostics have “problem” with your god – or any god, for that matter. It’s that atheists and agnostics see 1) absolutely no reason to believe in any gods and 2) the harm that irrational beliefs actually cause.

Now personally, I could care less if someone wants to privately believe in Jesus or Vishnu or Cthulhu or the Care Bears or whatever.

It’s when a person wants to start legislating those beliefs (and impose them on others) that they become a concern to me. And in a lesser way, when someone publicly declares his or her beliefs to be true, I feel that I have the right to publicly scrutinize that person’s belief. If you don’t want your beliefs questioned or subjected to scrutiny, you are more than welcome to keep them to yourself.

In addition, it’s not a secret that a lot of horrible things are done in the name of religion. Child abuse and deadly conflicts in Northern Ireland and the Middle East are just the tip of the iceberg. Certainly, I wouldn’t say that religion is the only problem in the world (far from it), but it’s a problem. Now people like to argue that religion does good things, like charity work, but this needs to be understood in context: there are secular charities that also do good things. In fact, there are no good things that religions do that you can’t achieve by secular means, but there are plenty of bad things that require religion (or dogmatic beliefs resembling religion) to make them happen.

 

[Monica4316]

In addition, it’s not a secret that a lot of horrible things are done in the name of religion.

there’s no evidence at all that these actions are caused by religion. If anything it just shows that sin is real and people need help to escape from it.

those who practiced what Christianity actually teaches became Saints

why blame religion for those who refuse to practice what they preach?

 

[AntiTheist]

there’s no evidence at all that these actions are caused by religion.

I think that there’s a lot of evidence that the conflict between, for example, the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland stems directly from religion and that it would not be happening if not for the religious beliefs of the people involved. It’s similar to all the other religious conflicts in history and around the rest of the world, where the primary motivation is the beliefs of the people involved.

There’s no use in pulling the old “no true scotsman” on this – the actual justification for the fighting is the difference in beliefs.

 

[Monica4316]

I think that there’s a lot of evidence that the conflict between, for example, the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland stems directly from religion and that it would not be happening if not for the religious beliefs of the people involved. It’s similar to all the other religious conflicts in history and around the rest of the world, where the primary motivation is the beliefs of the people involved.

There’s no use in pulling the old “no true scotsman” on this – the actual justification for the fighting is the difference in beliefs.

I mean the actual teachings of the religion

Christ said, love your enemy, do good to those who hate you

 

[anEvilAtheist]

In fact, there are no good things that religions do that you can’t achieve by secular means, but there are plenty of bad things that require religion (or dogmatic beliefs resembling religion) to make them happen.

If there can be harmful dogmas outside religion and not all religions have harmful dogmas, then why lay the blame on religion in general. I agree with you that individual religions can be immensely harmful, but I don’t think that it makes any more sense to blame theism in general for the crimes of believers than to blame atheism in general for the crimes of atheists.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

In fact, there are no good things that religions do that you can’t achieve by secular means

Believers don’t claim that belief in God gives them some magical superpower which enables them to perform good actions that would be physically impossible for non-believers to perform, they argue that belief in God can sometimes inspire people to do actions that they would not have done if they were atheists. Even if you think that on balance religion inspires far more evil actions than good ones, it seems obvious that at least on occasion people have done specific acts of kindness because of their religion.

 

[AntiTheist]

If there can be harmful dogmas outside religion and not all religions have harmful dogmas, then why lay the blame on religion in general.

As I said, religion is not the only problem in the world, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a problem.

I agree with you that individual religions can be immensely harmful, but I don’t think that it makes any more sense to blame theism in general for the crimes of believers than to blame atheism in general for the crimes of atheists.

I’m not “blam[ing] theism in general” – I’m blaming religions. If a person wants to be a theist – believe in some kind of a god – privately and not try to influence other people in any way, I have no problem whatsoever with that. In fact, I would want to defend a person’s right to hold a belief like that. But as soon as someone steps into the public sphere, either making claims or trying to influence the rest of society, that person is subjecting his or her claims to reasonable scrutiny.

 

[AntiTheist]

it seems obvious that at least on occasion people have done specific acts of kindness because of their religion.

And I’ve not denied that. You need to start paying attention to what you read.

EDIT: I wanted to address this too:

they argue that belief in God can sometimes inspire people to do actions that they would not have done if they were atheists.

Yes, and they’re generally wrong about this. In general, charitable people are going to do charitable things whether or not they believe in a god. In general, uncharitable people are not going to do charitable things whether or not they believe in a god.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

As I said, religion is not the only problem in the world, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a problem.

I’m not “blam[ing] theism in general” – I’m blaming religions. If a person wants to be a theist – believe in some kind of a god – privately and not try to influence other people in any way, I have no problem whatsoever with that. In fact, I would want to defend a person’s right to hold a belief like that. But as soon as someone steps into the public sphere, either making claims or trying to influence the rest of society, that person is subjecting his or her claims to reasonable scrutiny.

I understand your position, but I still slightly disagree. I think that a lot of bad things have been done in the name of various religions over the years, but I don’t think those people did those bad things in the name of bare theism or religion in general. Instead they did them in the name of their specific religious worldviews. There are harmful religious worldviews (as well as harmful atheistic ones like certain brands of communism), but I am not convinced that every single religious worldview is harmful. I don’t think it makes sense to say that all religion is harmful.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

And I’ve not denied that. You need to start paying attention to what you read.

EDIT: I wanted to address this too: Yes, and they’re generally wrong about this. In general, charitable people are going to do charitable things whether or not they believe in a god. In general, uncharitable people are not going to do charitable things whether or not they believe in a god.

I agree. It just seemed to me like you were originally saying that religion is obviously harmful because it is responsible for no additional good actions, but is responsible for some additional evil ones.