Atheists and Death

[Mirdath]

I’m not trying to send bad vibes at all, I’m just desperate to tell others there is something else after death. Tim

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to you with that comment

Thanks for explaining it a little more. It’s rather interesting that your desire for an end lines up a lot with how I felt as a Catholic – I too wanted to be able to opt out of the very afterlife I believed in (or at least thought I believed in; it’s… rather ambiguous).

I could go into some point-by-point detail, but I’ll forbear – suffice to say that I disagree entirely but respectfully. I’m glad you have something to look forward to, even if I don’t see it – and I hope that that something’s not coming too soon for your tastes. Best of luck

 

[Benedictus]

This thread is painful to read. I wish there was something I could say to make it click. Tim

I’ve actually found it quite comforting. I can probably be best described as agnostic. I’m not sure there is a God who “rewards and punishes his creation” as Einstein once said.

If there is no God, it follows that we don’t have immortal souls so our inevitable death would most likely be the end of our existence. At first, this conclusion was a bit unsettling to me, but I’ve found some peace with it. I have my life here on Earth to make a positive impact on those around me. It’s true that in two or three generations, nobody will probably remember anything significant about me, but I don’t find that troubling. I can still live in the memories of those who I do know right now, and that seems like enough.

In the end, we don’t really know what happens when we die. Nobody has ever come back to tell us. And while part of me would like to exist in some form after death, wishing will not make it so.

 

[Suat]

The reason a person is not afraid of going to Hell because he doesn’t know he has a soul.

In a way, yes. Part of the reason that I do not fear hell is due to the fact that I do not believe in the Christian concept of ‘soul’. However, I do make mistakes and I admit that I may be wrong about the lack of an afterlife. This does not cause me any fear.

Actually, you’ve made some asinine statements that have no grounding in fact. So contrary to the statement that you’ll well educated in Christian theology you’ve displayed that you know little to nothing about it. Reading inane atheist rantings that profess to explain Christianity, if you even done that, hardly makes for an understanding of Christian theology.

Fascinating. It is difficult to believe that you have the audacity to write this considering that your previous two paragraphs were full of asinine statements about atheism.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Tim

dont know (perhaps Im silly) if it cheers you but I’ll try
(exerpts from a song) I like the fact that only love can be packed and the rest left at the curb. And yea its faith, but its author is reliable and trustworthy.

And love is not the easy thing…
The only baggage you can bring
Is all that you can’t leave behind

packing a suitcase for a place none of us has been
A place that has to be believed to be seen

Home… hard to know what it is if you’ve never had one
Home… I can’t say where it is but I know I’m going home

 

[The_Truthinator]

To the Atheists here,

How do you deal with man’s duality—the fact that humankind’s appearance was (and still is) marked with a distinctive quality: Spiritual expression? Art, for instance. Even primitive cave paintings bear testimony to the depth of this unique race … Music, sentience, morality and ethics …?

Furthermore, for the evolutionists, if evolution is movement towards perfection, then is it not a logical assumption to say that then the ultimate result of the process would be a metaphysical being? By natural means, however, there is no known way for this to be accomplished. And if indeed we are progressing towards perfection, towards a metaphysical existence, then is it such a stretch to say that each and every man is innately complex in his existence—a person composed of two parts: substantial and nonsubstantial? And since only the physical is subject to the laws of duration, even past the point of death the metaphysical half of man would remain, would it not? And then we shall assume that none of the sum of his being is lost, but rather, transferred wholly into the nonsubstantial, metaphysical realm in which he now resides—a sort of “heavenly” realm, if you will.

Truly, whatever your view may be, the uniqueness of our species must not be overlooked. We are, as current scientific studies confirm (yet often deemphasize), the most extraordinary, perhaps oddest, and rarest, species in the universe, perhaps the galaxy. Spiritual beings (even if only in part)! Aware, full of creativity! Full of questions, artistic expression … Yes, though the Image in which we were first made is lost now … still one can find hints of a purposeful Maker if one only looks ….

 

[Urf]

To the Atheists here,

How do you deal with man’s duality—the fact that humankind’s appearance was (and still is) marked with a distinctive quality: Spiritual expression? Art, for instance. Even primitive cave paintings bear testimony to the depth of this unique race … Music, sentience, morality and ethics …?

Simple: Hunger for knowledge, and the desire to define oneself

Furthermore, for the evolutionists, if evolution is movement towards perfection,

Evolution is movement towards survivability. Whether or not that is “perfection” is a subjective question.

then is it not a logical assumption to say that then the ultimate result of the process would be a metaphysical being?

I dont really see how

Truly, whatever your view may be, the uniqueness of our species must not be overlooked. We are, as current scientific studies confirm (yet often deemphasize), the most extraordinary, perhaps oddest, and rarest, species in the universe, perhaps the galaxy.

Uh, we dont know of any species outside of our galaxy, buddy

Spiritual beings (even if only in part)! Aware, full of creativity! Full of questions, artistic expression … Yes, though the Image in which we were first made is lost now … still one can find hints of a purposeful Maker if one only looks ….

Or wants to see

 

[Mirdath]

To the Atheists here,

How do you deal with man’s duality—the fact that humankind’s appearance was (and still is) marked with a distinctive quality: Spiritual expression? Art, for instance. Even primitive cave paintings bear testimony to the depth of this unique race … Music, sentience, morality and ethics …?

We are body and mind, at the least; a spirit, who can know for sure? I don’t know the origin of the mind or that of our hypothetical souls; it’s an interesting question, but one I’m not sure will ever be fully answered. A closed system can never define itself – and if we progress beyond the bounds of the system we’re currently in, we may be able to define that which we’re working in right now but we’ll have more questions about the new one.

Furthermore, for the evolutionists, if evolution is movement towards perfection, then is it not a logical assumption to say that then the ultimate result of the process would be a metaphysical being?

Evolution is not a movement towards perfection but a gradual optimization for ‘not dying out’. The two can coincide somewhat; for instance, sharks are just about perfect at being fast sea predators – ie, being sharks. They haven’t improved much of anything for a good long time because they don’t need to; they are nigh-perfectly suited for the environment they inhabit. Human evolution specifically may well eventually pass the boundaries of the physical; again, nobody really knows for sure, though it’s looking like a possibility, for better or worse.

By natural means, however, there is no known way for this to be accomplished.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Keep in mind that humans right now transcend the material from the perspective of almost every other living being: we are self-aware, we think, we plan, we change our environments to suit us instead of only adapting to the environment (although we still do that as well). You’re right that there is no known way for us to move on to whatever the next stage may be, but that doesn’t mean it’ll take outside interference. There may be a variety of ways too, and it’s not necessary that only one is the ‘right’ way; with evolution, Plan A isn’t good enough – you still need B through Z and beyond. Redundant systems keep going after a few failures.

And since only the physical is subject to the laws of duration, even past the point of death the metaphysical half of man would remain, would it not? And then we shall assume that none of the sum of his being is lost, but rather, transferred wholly into the nonsubstantial, metaphysical realm in which he now resides—a sort of “heavenly” realm, if you will.

Maybe, maybe not. It simply isn’t knowable from our current state any more than the contents of a black hole is. The word ‘singularity’ is applicable to both these black boxes.

Truly, whatever your view may be, the uniqueness of our species must not be overlooked. We are, as current scientific studies confirm (yet often deemphasize), the most extraordinary, perhaps oddest, and rarest, species in the universe, perhaps the galaxy. Spiritual beings (even if only in part)! Aware, full of creativity! Full of questions, artistic expression …

Humanity is pretty great, yeah

 

[Suat]

To the Atheists here,

How do you deal with man’s duality—the fact that humankind’s appearance was (and still is) marked with a distinctive quality: Spiritual expression? Art, for instance. Even primitive cave paintings bear testimony to the depth of this unique race … Music, sentience, morality and ethics …?

I do not think that this is specific to humans though. We have a greater understanding of our minds and bodies than most other animals, but we are not distinct in this. It has been shown that other animals may be sentient or self-aware and that those ones also tend to have some basic sense of morality or ethics. There also appear to be a few species that have rudimentary tool and language use. Our ability is likely more well defined due to evolution.

Furthermore, for the evolutionists, if evolution is movement towards perfection

Evolution is not the movement towards perfection. Evolution is simply the accumulation of small, random mutations that increase, or have little detrimental impact upon, survivability. Over time, these mutations cause species to diverge, creating new types of animals and plants. However, there is no underlying motivation for evolution.

then is it not a logical assumption to say that then the ultimate result of the process would be a metaphysical being?

I doubt it. Evolution is a branch of science, which deals only with the natural world. I do not think that you can posit a metaphysical end to a natural process. Either way, evolution is still not the movement towards perfection.

Truly, whatever your view may be, the uniqueness of our species must not be overlooked.

I will accept that we are unique on this earth, as are all species. But are we unique in the universe? I do not know, and we are not technologically advanced enough to answer that question yet. Until we are, I will reserve judgment on our uniqueness.

 

[cheddarsox]

To the Atheists here,

How do you deal with man’s duality—the fact that humankind’s appearance was (and still is) marked with a distinctive quality: Spiritual expression? Art, for instance. Even primitive cave paintings bear testimony to the depth of this unique race … Music, sentience, morality and ethics …?

Furthermore, for the evolutionists, if evolution is movement towards perfection, then is it not a logical assumption to say that then the ultimate result of the process would be a metaphysical being? … Spiritual beings (even if only in part)! Aware, full of creativity! Full of questions, artistic expression … Yes, though the Image in which we were first made is lost now … still one can find hints of a purposeful Maker if one only looks ….

I hardly know where to begin!

Man’s duality? That may be your way of explaining what you see, but I don’t see or experience duality. I have never had a thought or feeling apart from my body. My feelings are all experienced through my body and it’s responses, that is how I know I am feeling something. There is no divide. My spirituality is a function of my brain.

All speciese are unique, that’s how we came up with the term species, to place boundaries around what we/humans consider to be unique. Later in the history of science, we attempted to define species in less subjective terms…as organisms that can reproduce together and have fertile offspring…but as there are organisms that don’t participate in sexual reproduction…that likewise falls short. So…now we use DNA analysis. Yes, there are uncountable unique varieties of organisms. I am constantly astounded.

I am likewise astounded by the fact that all these unique organisms have aspects of unity, signs of relationship to one another, of having developed together from and within the same system. We have much in common with the rest of the biosphere. Our behaviors have much in common with other mammals that live in cooperative groups. We have both unique and common aspects…just like other organisms.

I’m not sure what it is that makes some people so determined to see humanity as set apart from the rest of the living things. It is precisely because we are so much like them that we have been able to succeed as a species, and to adapt as we have. Think of drug testing on animals if nothing else…of all the medical advances made by trying them out first on animals. Sort of takes the steam out of how set apart we are.

As several have already pointed out. Evolution has nothing to do with perfection.

As Catholics often say…people don’t hate the Catholic church, they hate their erroneous beliefs about what the church is…the same goes for evolution. Most of the arguments I see religious folk posit against it…are against some erroneous idea of what evolution is.

One thing evolution and the universe is not is logical. Using logic to explain the nature of the universe is pointless. It is what it is, it does not follow Plato or Aristotle. It is not based on human thought patterns. Go argue logic with the sun or a thunderstorm, try to explain to your sperm cells why it is or isn’t a good time for you to become a father…good luck with that. Logic has nothing to do with reality. It is an excercise humans use to help them order their thoughts and perhaps keep from going insane in a world too complex for us to comprehend. Interesting how we alter our logic when we make some new discovery…what was logical before suddenly appears foolish in the light of new knowledge. Used to be demons caused disease…now we know otherwise.

Our species is no more or less unique than any other. There are myriad species that are more specialized (evolved and adapted) to their particular niche than our own.

I agree that everything in the universe is a reflection of the Divine, but what I see and experience does not lead me to the same conclusion about a purposeful Maker. Your belief leads you to interpret the universe in that manner. My experience of the universe leads me to interpret the Divine in a very different manner, and arrive at a different set of beliefs.

 

[The_Truthinator]

We are body and mind, at the least; a spirit, who can know for sure? I don’t know the origin of the mind or that of our hypothetical souls; it’s an interesting question, but one I’m not sure will ever be fully answered.

Well, some know … Some choose not to know. Yet these are complicated matters, which it seems to me can ONLY be answered through revelation—the observations about the natural world come from we humans, our perspective a bit … limited, shall we say. Be there a Divinity (and I assure you, there is), a purposeful God, who exists outside of this lowly dimension, beyond all dimensions, being utterly transcendent, and were he to reveal himself to us (as he has), then the complexities of the information which he has so graciously provided to us (concerning the nature of the soul) would be information otherwise unattainable from our lowly positions, and being the Creator of the natural world, it is presumable that his data is correct: Humans consist of the corporeal and incorporeal; the spirit is a feature unique to man; it is from God. Whether or not evolution plays a part in this, as I’ve speculated, I don’t know. It’s possible. In any case, ultimately its origins are from Above. That is what matters supremely.

Evolution is not a movement towards perfection but a gradual optimization for ‘not dying out’. The two can coincide somewhat…. Human evolution specifically may well eventually pass the boundaries of the physical; again, nobody really knows for sure, though it’s looking like a possibility, for better or worse.

“Eventually?” Friend, at least to me it is all-too-clear that humanity does exist in duality even now, though perhaps not to a great extent.

You’re right that there is no known way for us to move on to whatever the next stage may be, but that doesn’t mean it’ll take outside interference.

Well, all of it was “outside interference” when one considers matter does not spontaneously exist. It is a creation, and certainly not by natural means. Unless, of course, you are arguing for the eternity of the universe, in which case modern science (most, anyway) seems to disagree greatly …

It simply isn’t knowable from our current state

With revelation from a higher Being, it is most certainly knowable. Whether or not one acknowledges such things is a different matter entirely.

Humanity is pretty great, yeah

Divine.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I’m not sure what it is that makes some people so determined to see humanity as set apart from the rest of the living things.

It’s our evolutionary status. Not to suggest we are “superior” (though certainly well-adapted), but rather, unique—different, in that we do have a spirituality and a certain amount of awareness about it, even if it is primarily understood via the cerebral.

As several have already pointed out. Evolution has nothing to do with perfection

“Perfection,” as I used it, was in relationship to the environment. A metaphysical being is ultimately adapted in my mind … But you may disagree, which is fine.

Most of the arguments I see religious folk posit against it…are against some erroneous idea of what evolution is.

You’ll have to excuse my lack of biological comprehension. I’m only thirteen; most of my biological knowledge is self-taught, which can lead to a lot of errors … I do make honest attempts. However, in my ignorance about the natural world I was still able to see the Divine in it … and that has since compelled me. For one who has the Spirit, there is little that can convince him contrary to the voice which assures that, indeed, the Scriptures hold true, even when tested in the intensest flames. “For ever since the world was created, people have seen…, through everything God made, his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature.”

One thing evolution and the universe is not is logical. Using logic to explain the nature of the universe is pointless.

I agree, but we humans understand according to logic. It’s simply what we’ve been taught, perhaps erroneously.

Interesting how we alter our logic when we make some new discovery…what was logical before suddenly appears foolish in the light of new knowledge. Used to be demons caused disease…now we know otherwise.

True logic is never-shifting, I understand. As it is said,

“’I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.’

Are you insinuating that demons don’t cause illnesses …?

Yes, and “bless you” for sneezes originated because humans knew that, logically, the only explanation for a sneeze was a demon being expelled … However, I hardly think natural occurrences can’t be used as mediums for God divine justice. After all, when the walls of Jericho fell, tell me, what ground-shaking phenomenon did God use? An earthquake, perhaps? I am not opposed to miracles in the ontological sense of the word, as current logic is … Nor am I against the use of natural occurrences as mediums, such as in the cases of Jericho and Korah’s rebellion … I think both are acceptable theories to explain that which is seen all throughout history, even if deemphasized and hidden in the classroom …

 

[Imagine23]

Hello,

How do atheists view death? For me, if I was looking at a time when I would just cease to exist, that I would vanish into nothingness - that would be absolutely frightening!

I have heard some claim that as long as your memory lingers on, then you live forever. But, how long does a memory linger? Unless you are famous, your memory only lasts two to three generations at best. I have no memories of my great-great-grandparents, though I have see a picture of my great-grandmother’s family. I couldn’t even tell you their names, and family is important on my dad’s side of the family. But family relations unfortunately being what they are, some don’t even know immediate relatives. So those memories fade fast.

Even if you are famous, how long will the memory last. We remember George Washington, but only by name and the fact that he lead the Revolutionary War and was America’s first President. But that is not personal. We don’t remember the personality, which if claims of living via your memory is valid the personality must remain intact. And the only way for the personality to be remembered is to be saintly or a raving lunatic. And since atheists don’t strive for sainthood, that only leaves lunacy.

So atheists, how do you face your nearing and inevitable death?

Great question. The myth of heaven and everlasting life is a major reason for the peristence of religion in my opinion.

I could never accept the fantasy of everlasting life even as a small child forced to go to Catholic church. When I was young, the thought of dying and being gone forever was a concept that frightened me and literally would keep me up at night.

I gradually learned to accept the fact that we come and go just as every other animal on the planet. When I’m gone, I’m gone. There will no longer be a functioning brain in my head when I die, so there will be nothing to lament.

Accept nature.

 

[The_Truthinator]

The myth of heaven and everlasting life is a major reason for the peristence of religion in my opinion.

Yet in my depravity I would have imagined Heaven much different from what I know now is the truth … as the Apostles also would have, no doubt.

I could never accept the fantasy of everlasting life even as a small child forced to go to Catholic church. When I was young, the thought of dying and being gone forever was a concept that frightened me and literally would keep me up at night.

“In death the wicked cause no trouble,
and the weary are at rest.
Even captives are at ease in death,
with no guards to curse them.
Rich and poor are both there,
and the slave is free from his master.”

That’s Job, lamenting his birth, contemplating the joys of death. This is him again, some many chapters later:

“I know that my Redeemer lives,
and he will stand upon the earth at last.
And after my body has decayed,
yet in my body I will see God!”

Death is nothing to be feared for those with faith like Job’s …

I gradually learned to accept the fact that we come and go just as every other animal on the planet. When I’m gone, I’m gone. There will no longer be a functioning brain in my head when I die, so there will be nothing to lament.

Accept nature.

You forget the fact that your cerebral mind may be gone, yet in the depths of your soul, your lamenting this sad existence will go on and on and on … “Life was more than just living!” you will cry.

To accept nature, one must accept the Source, without whom creation is beyond comprehension. Without acknowledging the true origins of this mote of dust upon which you and I now reside, you are but in an ignorant paradise, the illusionary nature of which will in time be exposed.

 

[Imagine23]

Yet in my depravity I would have imagined Heaven much different from what I know now is the truth … as the Apostles also would have, no doubt.

“In death the wicked cause no trouble,
and the weary are at rest.
Even captives are at ease in death,
with no guards to curse them.
Rich and poor are both there,
and the slave is free from his master.”

That’s Job, lamenting his birth, contemplating the joys of death. This is him again, some many chapters later:

“I know that my Redeemer lives,
and he will stand upon the earth at last.
And after my body has decayed,
yet in my body I will see God!”

Death is nothing to be feared for those with faith like Job’s …

You forget the fact that your cerebral mind may be gone, yet in the depths of your soul, your lamenting this sad existence will go on and on and on … “Life was more than just living!” you will cry.

To accept nature, one must accept the Source, without whom creation is beyond comprehension. Without acknowledging the true origins of this mote of dust upon which you and I now reside, you are but in an ignorant paradise, the illusionary nature of which will in time be exposed.

Either way you get there is fine. I’ve come to grips with reality, you continue in a realm of intellectual dishonesty, relying on literature written thousands of years ago by people who had not even a tenth of the knowledge that average person today has about medicine and science. I find it hard to trust the conclusions of the authors of the bible on such difficult questions as eternity, everlasting life, etc. when they got so many other things wrong.

 

[eliasaph99]

Non-theistic morality need not be subjective. It’s perfectly rational to claim that all have a right to life and to property (or not if you’re Marxist) without requiring belief in a deity.

The problem is that it is equally as rational to claim that the mentally, genetically, or physically defective are a drain on society and that they have no right to life.

It’s also equally rational to claim that none have a right to personal property because all exist within society and would die without society (or live a hampered existence).

Strict rationality does not necessarily translate into moral correctness.

 

[VociMike]

In addition, the Christian version of heaven is not any more comforting to me…

What is “the Christian version of heaven”? I know what the secular version of the Christian version of heaven is, but I truly don’t know what atheists think is the Christian version of heaven.

 

[VociMike]

Great question. The myth of heaven and everlasting life is a major reason for the peristence of religion in my opinion.

Why? Why would humans (alone) have evolved to be so ill-equipped to deal with reality? Consider the immeasurable time, effort and resources that have been wasted (if God doesn’t exist) on religion. How could evolution possibly allow such waste?

 

[Suat]

What is “the Christian version of heaven”? I know what the secular version of the Christian version of heaven is, but I truly don’t know what atheists think is the Christian version of heaven.

Perhaps something like this? Obviously, the version would depend upon the sect of Christianity that the believer comes from.

 

[TOP]

Tim

dont know (perhaps Im silly) if it cheers you but I’ll try
(exerpts from a song) I like the fact that only love can be packed and the rest left at the curb. And yea its faith, but its author is reliable and trustworthy.

And love is not the easy thing…
The only baggage you can bring
Is all that you can’t leave behind

packing a suitcase for a place none of us has been
A place that has to be believed to be seen

Home… hard to know what it is if you’ve never had one
Home… I can’t say where it is but I know I’m going home

Thanks, I’ve been out of town this weekend. I hope to catch up of the threads this week. Tim

 

[cheddarsox]

Why? Why would humans (alone) have evolved to be so ill-equipped to deal with reality? Consider the immeasurable time, effort and resources that have been wasted (if God doesn’t exist) on religion. How could evolution possibly allow such waste?

Apparently we deal OK with reality, we seem to be multiplying and spreading over more and more of the planet, usually considered a sign of biological success.

Whether or not God exists does not determine whether religion or even belief in God is a waste. Religion has served the purpose of uniting, giving strength and purpose to people’s behaviors, calming their fears, answering their doubts, etc.

Even false beliefs can serve useful purposes.

And Evolution doesn’t have a purpose or goal, it is simply the process of change that takes place in organisms due to selection by the enviornmental conditions. Not every behavior or feature serves a beneficial purpose in a given species at a given time.

Sometimes people substitute Evolution for “God” and argue as though they are interchangeable and fill the same roles in the world, or in a person’s life. Often, when I discuss my faith with Christians they try to make the simple substitution of “Universe” (I’m a pantheist) in the roles that God fills in their own life and faith. It doesn’t work that way. There are places where the roles overlap, but a simple substitution does not work.

Also, people often ask…“why would you want to believe in a religion that offers you no hope of eternal life? That doesn’t promise to save you or take care of you?”

I don’t believe in my faith because I “want” to. I didn’t shop for it, and choose it because it has all the features I was looking for. I believe it because it is true.

My faith offers different kinds of comforts. Not the one’s that are most cozy and convenient.

An interesting subject came up in a spirituality group I participate in today…that the way individuals view war and respond to conflict is based on their experience with their father.

I was thinking that the idea of God as father…may also be influenced by what kind of dad we had. The person who was explaining the concept from a book she is reading gave the two options…a nurturing father, a domineering father.

What the book never mentioned, apparently, is an absent father.

My dad provided materially, but he was not around while I was growing up. Maybe my concept of faith is a result of that as much as anything. The universe provides, but it does not interact personally, doesn’t protect me, etc.

Anyway…something to think about.

Does your experience of “father” mesh with your concept of God?

cheddar