Atheists and other Non-Christians, have you baptized your Christian friends?

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The EWTN site continues to explain the differences of intent. The article closes as follows
Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism
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Summing up, we can say: The Baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ essentially, both for what concerns faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name Baptism is conferred, and for what concerns the relationship to Christ who instituted it. As a result of all this, it is understood that the Catholic Church has to consider invalid, that is to say, cannot consider true Baptism, the rite given that name by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
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It is equally necessary to underline that the decision of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is a response to a particular question regarding the Baptism of Mormons and obviously does not indicate a judgment on those who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, Catholics and Mormons often find themselves working together on a range of problems regarding the common good of the entire human race. It can be hoped therefore that through further studies, dialogue and good will, there can be progress in reciprocal understanding and mutual respect.
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Now, you may be correct that you can hold different ideas and still be Mormon, although the Mormons that I know would not agree.
 
I am a Methodist and when I wanted baptised I did NOT seek an Atheist or Muslim to baptise me:confused: That just does not make sense.
I was however baptised by a Baptist Deacon which is accepted by the Congregational Methodist Church and I would assume by the Catholic Church also.
WP
 
sandmountainsli said:
I am a Methodist and when I wanted baptised I did NOT seek an Atheist or Muslim to baptise me:confused: That just does not make sense.
I was however baptised by a Baptist Deacon which is accepted by the Congregational Methodist Church and I would assume by the Catholic Church also.
WP
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It would be accepted. As a rule, Baptism is Baptism and is accepted by the Catholic Church. Mormon baptism is an exception. The teaching is that the person Baptising need not be Christian. It is a rarity, but it can happen.

The second i saw Sand Mountain, I thought you were from Alabama, too. How are ya?
 
ralphinal said:
It would be accepted. As a rule,

The second i saw Sand Mountain, I thought you were from Alabama, too. How are ya?
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Doin’ fine and preparing for Christmas, I am indeed from on top of Sand Mountain in the Great State of Alabama 🙂 You have heard of Fyffe I presume?
WP
 
sandmountainsli said:
Doin’ fine and preparing for Christmas, I am indeed from on top of Sand Mountain in the Great State of Alabama 🙂 You have heard of Fyffe I presume?
WP
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Who hasn’t? 😉 I am from Trussville, but I know that area quite well.
 
I must say that this question made me ‘thought experiment’ - suppose I came across a dying woman and dying child and she begged me to do it, what would I do?

Sheer humanity would demand that I did it, although it would be just to ease her mind in the situation (obviously, from my point of view, the child would be just getting wet).

Saying the form of words, anathema to a Jew, would be more than a little difficult and not a little ridiculous. To my mind, the idea that a non-believer can do it really does raise questions about ‘form’ over ‘meaning’ in Catholicism.
 
Kaninchen said:
I must say that this question made me ‘thought experiment’ - suppose I came across a dying woman and dying child and she begged me to do it, what would I do?

Sheer humanity would demand that I did it, although it would be just to ease her mind in the situation (obviously, from my point of view, the child would be just getting wet).

Saying the form of words, anathema to a Jew, would be more than a little difficult and not a little ridiculous. To my mind, the idea that a non-believer can do it really does raise questions about ‘form’ over ‘meaning’ in Catholicism.
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Your intent in this case would be to do what was asked of you, even if it was against your beliefs. In this case, you are not saying that you accept it, but because it was asked that you do so, you are performing the act. It would be like an ambassador asking a foreign president for clemency for a prisoner. You may not be comfortable with the protocol, or even like doing so. For what ever reason, you jump through the hoops like you were asked to do.
 
ralphinal said:
Your intent in this case would be to do what was asked of you, even if it was against your beliefs. In this case, you are not saying that you accept it, but because it was asked that you do so, you are performing the act. It would be like an ambassador asking a foreign president for clemency for a prisoner. You may not be comfortable with the protocol, or even like doing so. For what ever reason, you jump through the hoops like you were asked to do.
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I guess the question then becomes, would a Catholic be willing to do the same thing for a non-Christian—the equivalent of baptize another person into a religion s/he does not believe in and in fact may consider anathema?
 
Tsuzuki said:
See for yourself.
scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/20/28,72-74#28

Because people are stupid. More specifically, because most Mormons don’t understand the Trinity and because most non-Mormons don’t understand the nuances of Mormonism or the many ways in which one idea can be interpreted differently and still be “orthodox”.
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Interesting. A couple of my friends are LDS, and they told me that Mormons believe that the Trinity is one in purpose, rather than one in substance as Catholics believe. Her husband helps out with the missionaries in the area explaining this to the potential converts.
 
KarenNC said:
I guess the question then becomes, would a Catholic be willing to do the same thing for a non-Christian—the equivalent of baptize another person into a religion s/he does not believe in and in fact may consider anathema?
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Excellent question, and one that I am not sure that I can answer. One the one hand, I would do all that I could to grant the dying wish of a person, if for no other reason than they could die in peace. On the other hand, there is the issue of assisting in a faith that, according to mine, is not the correct way to God. Most baptisms are valid, so it would not be a matter of another mainline protestant denomination. Let’s choose Mormons for arguement’s sake.

If all I had to do is get the child to a Mormon, I probably would. If it was to participate, I am not sure that I could. From my experiance, Mormons have a habit of using participation of others as a sign that they are right or as a prostylization tool. It would be hard to “help” if it would be used against me.
 
Tsuzuki said:
You are correct. One way of looking at it would be that Mormons view “purpose” as the substance that the Trinity are one in.
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Yes, but she also told me that the LDS church teaches that God the Father also has a physical human body, whereas Catholics believe that God the Son is the only member of the Trinity to have a physical body.
 
KarenNC said:
I guess the question then becomes, would a Catholic be willing to do the same thing for a non-Christian—the equivalent of baptize another person into a religion s/he does not believe in and in fact may consider anathema?
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Ah, now it gets interesting! Would it be an act of charity to set the person’s mind at ease by assisting them in whatever non-Christian rite or whatever? Would that make up for the, i would assume sin, of participating in a non-Christian religion? May we take this to the Moral Theology forum and discuss it further? I find this question very interesting.
 
jfallaw said:
Ah, now it gets interesting! Would it be an act of charity to set the person’s mind at ease by assisting them in whatever non-Christian rite or whatever? Would that make up for the, i would assume sin, of participating in a non-Christian religion? May we take this to the Moral Theology forum and discuss it further? I find this question very interesting.
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If you need my permission to do so, feel free to go ahead, just let me know as I would be interested in seeing the discussion as well. I am basically of the “if it’s sauce for the goose, it’s sauce for the gander” opinion on this one, but continue to fail to see any advantage in having a non-believer say the (obviously empty to them if not outright blasphemous) form over someone rather than have their own parents who are believers do so.

I am not sure which religions would have something that is substantially equivalent to the requirement for baptism to prevent even an infant from eternal punishment simply for existing, though. Something that would constitute an emergency religious situation that they could not take care of themselves (prayer, etc) in such an emergency. If one doesn’t have a doctrine of something equivalent to original sin, then it becomes a different circumstance.
 
The core of what is surprising to me in this is that at least some Catholics seem to be teaching that as long as the words are right, it is irrelevant if the person saying them believes them or not, believes in the Trinity or not, intends to actually do something that they believe is a valid baptism, etc. This is precisely contrary to the position I see the Church taking on other matters such as the Eucharist, where I could say the words all day long and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference as far as the Church is concerned as to whether or not the rite was valid, regardless of how much the person I gave the bread and wine to believed it would be valid (see their objection to every form of Protestant Communion).

As Kaninchen said, “from my point of view the child would only be getting wet.” Is that truly enough for the Church to consider it a valid form of a sacrament?

If all that really matters is that the words were said out loud in the proper sequence and the person’s head gets wet, could one then train a parrot to be able to perform a valid baptism by saying the right words and tipping a bucket of water over? If not (and I really don’t think it would be acceptable), why not?
 
KarenNC said:
The core of what is surprising to me in this is that at least some Catholics seem to be teaching that as long as the words are right, it is irrelevant if the person saying them believes them or not, believes in the Trinity or not, intends to actually do something that they believe is a valid baptism, etc. This is precisely contrary to the position I see the Church taking on other matters such as the Eucharist, where I could say the words all day long and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference as far as the Church is concerned as to whether or not the rite was valid, regardless of how much the person I gave the bread and wine to believed it would be valid (see their objection to every form of Protestant Communion).

As Kaninchen said, “from my point of view the child would only be getting wet.” Is that truly enough for the Church to consider it a valid form of a sacrament?

If all that really matters is that the words were said out loud in the proper sequence and the person’s head gets wet, could one then train a parrot to be able to perform a valid baptism by saying the right words and tipping a bucket of water over? If not (and I really don’t think it would be acceptable), why not?
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Let me go backwards, only a human can baptise, so a machine or animal, no matter how well designed can.

As far as the Eucharist goes, you must be a validly ordained priest. That is why no one else can perfrom the sacrament. A better comparison is matrimony. The man and woman actually perform the sacrament themselves with the priest or deacon as a required church witness. The intent is to marry each other even if they do not believe that a “church wedding” matters.

As an aside, if the priest does not beleive that he is actually doing anything during the mass, it does not effect the validity of it.
 
ralphinal said:
Excellent question, and one that I am not sure that I can answer. One the one hand, I would do all that I could to grant the dying wish of a person, if for no other reason than they could die in peace. On the other hand, there is the issue of assisting in a faith that, according to mine, is not the correct way to God. Most baptisms are valid, so it would not be a matter of another mainline protestant denomination. Let’s choose Mormons for arguement’s sake.

If all I had to do is get the child to a Mormon, I probably would. If it was to participate, I am not sure that I could. From my experiance, Mormons have a habit of using participation of others as a sign that they are right or as a prostylization tool. It would be hard to “help” if it would be used against me.
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If a child were on the verge of death I would preform the Baptism . If the person was an adult I would have to ask Questions along the lines yes or no to the Nicene Creed If then I could perform the baptism other wise i would do what i could to find someone from there faith to do it.

Peace in the Lord.

Scott
 
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