Atheists and the validity of reason

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Exactly what did you find in Catholicism that you could not break, that all the other religions had that made them fail? I’m honestly curious, because as far as I can tell, the religions I have studied have all pretty much boiled down to the same basic premises. “Do as we say, or bad things will happen”
I am really sorry to say but catholicism is not even that easy… It is not only that you have to follow the rules, but you have to love God more then anything and others like yourself and then it gets worse, from that love you should be able to hate sin and do what God wants without feeling it as a rule but because you want to do what God wants, because you know is good for you… So Do as we say is not going to be even nearly good enough for a catholic… That is what i was drawn to when i started exploring, but i never wanted to become catholic, and i still don’t want, but it seems to be the only true religion and God seems to want me to be there, so that is where i am going
 
Catholicism is the only religion I have not been able to break. So far I have broken (to my satisfaction) the other major religions of the world. I consider it fortunate that I was born into the only religion that I cannot break, for otherwise I would have to go through a lot of emotional and social turmoil.
Just interested, how did you break Buddhism or Hinduism? Buddhism especially has a lot of philosophical thought surrounding it, of course through modern science we are able to see a lot of “faults” in it, but they cannot be proven as false…

And what about Chinese traditions?

Islam i already know at least from its history there seems faults, plus its God seems a bit violent sometimes, Protestantism is easy and everything it brings…

How about pagans?
 
Just interested, how did you break Buddhism or Hinduism? Buddhism especially has a lot of philosophical thought surrounding it, of course through modern science we are able to see a lot of “faults” in it, but they cannot be proven as false…
Buddhism creates a system without any explanation of why it exists. They posit a reality in which we can reach a cessation of desire, and this is what we must strive for. It is agnostic in regards to God. This suffers the same fate as many philosophic traditions- the system is logically possible, but there is no explanation why it it so. Why are we here in the first place? To reach nirvana? Nirvana is essentially the same as nonexistence, so why would we be created to return to a state of non-existence? What is the point behind all of this? How did it come into being?

Hinduism denies the law of non-contradiction, which renders ideas and language meaningless. If Hinduism is true, then we can’t really speak of one religion being true and another false. If that is the case, I see no reason to believe any particular religion, or anything else for that matter. If God can both exist and not exist, Hinduism be both true and false, Catholicism be both true and false, etc, then ideas and philosophy lose their meaning. Even the idea that the law of non-contradicition does not hold becomes both true and false, which reduces everything to nonsense.
And what about Chinese traditions?
I’m not very familiar with confucism, but I’ve always heard its a political philosophy rather than a religion. I’ll get back to you about shintoism and taoism, but I suspect the suffer the same fate at paganism as explained below.
Islam i already know at least from its history there seems faults, plus its God seems a bit violent sometimes,
Islam teaches that both good and evil proceed from the will of God. Not only does this make God somewhat evil, or evil somewhat good, it brings the nature of God into question. God by nature must have perfection, lack nothing. If God causes evil, then evil must be part of his nature. If evil is part of his nature, then God cannot be all-good. If he is not all good, God’s motives for creating the world come into question. Catholics teach that God created the world out of pure selflessness, but if God is not entirely selfless, then perhaps God created the world for evil purposes. Even if God says he did not, perhaps he is lying to us.
Protestantism is easy and everything it brings…
Some teach that you can do whatever you want and go to heaven, as long as you believe. I find this hard to accept.

Also, the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura (scripture alone) is somewhat improbable. They teach that God gave us a book to be everyone’s sole guide to truth, even though for thousands of years most people were illiterate or could not afford to buy a handwritten Bible. Even if a person had a Bible, there are a million different ways to interpret a passage. Thus, a person can essentially create his own religion based on what he wants to read (right now there are about 30,000). This is simply not a well-working system for a wise God to devise. Conpare this to Catholicism, which teaches that God appointed men to guide and direct the church, and formed a visible authority out of them. He promises to guide that church, and to keep it from doctrinal error. He gives it the authority to interpret scipture, so that no confusion will result.
How about pagans?
Paganism (in the sense of the ancient world) posits numerous gods who are like immortal people. Classical theology has demonstrated (read “Attributes of God” on newadvent.org) that God must have certain attributes. He must be one, uncaused, lack nothing, unchangeble. This is at odds with the pagan idea of many gods that come from parent gods, changing their minds all the time and doing many questionable things like eloping with humans or cheating on their spouses.

Paganism in the sense of druidism and new age religions suffers the same problem as Buddhism- why is the system in place? Where did it come from?
 
I am really sorry to say but catholicism is not even that easy… It is not only that you have to follow the rules, but you have to love God more then anything and others like yourself and then it gets worse, from that love you should be able to hate sin and do what God wants without feeling it as a rule but because you want to do what God wants, because you know is good for you… So Do as we say is not going to be even nearly good enough for a catholic… That is what i was drawn to when i started exploring, but i never wanted to become catholic, and i still don’t want, but it seems to be the only true religion and God seems to want me to be there, so that is where i am going
Emotions do not come into play in regards to sin. If a person follows the moral precepts of the church, or repents if he has broken them, he cannot lose his salvation. Whether a person
“feels” love for God does not come into play in terms of salvation. Obviously, such feelings are useful in cultivating your relationship with God, but we do not have anything to fear if we lack them.
 
Buddhism creates a system without any explanation of why it exists. They posit a reality in which we can reach a cessation of desire, and this is what we must strive for. It is agnostic in regards to God. This suffers the same fate as many philosophic traditions- the system is logically possible, but there is no explanation why it it so. Why are we here in the first place? To reach nirvana? Nirvana is essentially the same as nonexistence, so why would we be created to return to a state of non-existence? What is the point behind all of this? How did it come into being?

Hinduism denies the law of non-contradiction, which renders ideas and language meaningless. If Hinduism is true, then we can’t really speak of one religion being true and another false. If that is the case, I see no reason to believe any particular religion, or anything else for that matter. If God can both exist and not exist, Hinduism be both true and false, Catholicism be both true and false, etc, then ideas and philosophy lose their meaning. Even the idea that the law of non-contradicition does not hold becomes both true and false, which reduces everything to nonsense.

I’m not very familiar with confucism, but I’ve always heard its a political philosophy rather than a religion. I’ll get back to you about shintoism and taoism, but I suspect the suffer the same fate at paganism as explained below.

Islam teaches that both good and evil proceed from the will of God. Not only does this make God somewhat evil, or evil somewhat good, it brings the nature of God into question. God by nature must have perfection, lack nothing. If God causes evil, then evil must be part of his nature. If evil is part of his nature, then God cannot be all-good. If he is not all good, God’s motives for creating the world come into question. Catholics teach that God created the world out of pure selflessness, but if God is not entirely selfless, then perhaps God created the world for evil purposes. Even if God says he did not, perhaps he is lying to us.

Some teach that you can do whatever you want and go to heaven, as long as you believe. I find this hard to accept.

Also, the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura (scripture alone) is somewhat improbable. They teach that God gave us a book to be everyone’s sole guide to truth, even though for thousands of years most people were illiterate or could not afford to buy a handwritten Bible. Even if a person had a Bible, there are a million different ways to interpret a passage. Thus, a person can essentially create his own religion based on what he wants to read (right now there are about 30,000). This is simply not a well-working system for a wise God to devise. Conpare this to Catholicism, which teaches that God appointed men to guide and direct the church, and formed a visible authority out of them. He promises to guide that church, and to keep it from doctrinal error. He gives it the authority to interpret scipture, so that no confusion will result.

Paganism (in the sense of the ancient world) posits numerous gods who are like immortal people. Classical theology has demonstrated (read “Attributes of God” on newadvent.org) that God must have certain attributes. He must be one, uncaused, lack nothing, unchangeble. This is at odds with the pagan idea of many gods that come from parent gods, changing their minds all the time and doing many questionable things like eloping with humans or cheating on their spouses.

Paganism in the sense of druidism and new age religions suffers the same problem as Buddhism- why is the system in place? Where did it come from?
Thanks for this Sarpedon, very good post, learned a lot from that…
 
Exactly what did you find in Catholicism that you could not break, that all the other religions had that made them fail? I’m honestly curious, because as far as I can tell, the religions I have studied have all pretty much boiled down to the same basic premises. “Do as we say, or bad things will happen”
Catholicism answers the fundamental question of “why” to a better degree than all other religions I have come across, and I have not found any logical contradictions or unacceptable premises in it.

Below I will outline the Catholic explanation for why we exist, and why we were created.

God is love. This love is not a feeling, but rather selflessness (which entails choice). God is one, uncreated, lacking nothing, omnipotent, and omniscient. In essence, God is the greatest possible entity. Thus, God lacks nothing and needs nothing. He cannot gain anything from anything or anyone.

God was moved by His selflessness to create us. He cannot benefit from us in any way, but chose to create us purely for our own sake. He desires that we develop the capacity to love just as He does, so that it is possible for us to recieve and enjoy his love. To this end, He gives us free will, for otherwise we could not make the choice to love. This carries with it the terrible prospect of sin, which God is willing to suffer for our sake.

(more to come)
 
Buddhism creates a system without any explanation of why it exists.
Buddhism is a path. A reason for the existence of things is not required, merely the fact that they exist. We are in a burning building and we need to escape it - discussions as to which architects designed the building can safely be left until after we have escaped. The parable of the man shot with an arrow is relevant here:[The Buddha said:]'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

(Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63)

I would also point out that Christianity creates a system based on God, without any explanation of why God exists.
They posit a reality in which we can reach a cessation of desire, and this is what we must strive for. It is agnostic in regards to God. This suffers the same fate as many philosophic traditions- the system is logically possible, but there is no explanation why it it so.
We do not need to know why, we just need to know that it works. Buddhism is a path, and provided the path goes to the correct destination we can be satisfied with it as a path.
Why are we here in the first place?
Because we failed to reach nirvana in our previous life. Had we succeeded then we would not have been reborn.
Nirvana is essentially the same as nonexistence
You have sadly misunderstood the nature of nirvana. Seeing nirvana as nonexistence is a common error, so you are not alone in making it. The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35, he died at age 80. For 45 years he was preaching in India and was also in nirvana. Whatever nirvana is, it is most certainly not nonexistence.
so why would we be created to return to a state of non-existence?
You are assuming here that Buddhism says we are created. It does not. Your question might be a problem if Buddhism was an Abrahamic religion but Buddhism does not recognise a creator. The question of origins is not seen as relevant to the Buddhist religious path, as shown by the quote from the Cula-Malunkyovada sutta above.
What is the point behind all of this?
To avoid “birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair”.
How did it come into being?
Ask a cosmologist, this is not a religious question.

rossum
 
Buddhism is a path. A reason for the existence of things is not required, merely the fact that they exist. We are in a burning building and we need to escape it - discussions as to which architects designed the building can safely be left until after we have escaped. The parable of the man shot with an arrow is relevant here:[The Buddha said:]'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

(Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63)

I would also point out that Christianity creates a system based on God, without any explanation of why God exists.

We do not need to know why, we just need to know that it works. Buddhism is a path, and provided the path goes to the correct destination we can be satisfied with it as a path.

Because we failed to reach nirvana in our previous life. Had we succeeded then we would not have been reborn.

You have sadly misunderstood the nature of nirvana. Seeing nirvana as nonexistence is a common error, so you are not alone in making it. The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35, he died at age 80. For 45 years he was preaching in India and was also in nirvana. Whatever nirvana is, it is most certainly not nonexistence.

You are assuming here that Buddhism says we are created. It does not. Your question might be a problem if Buddhism was an Abrahamic religion but Buddhism does not recognise a creator. The question of origins is not seen as relevant to the Buddhist religious path, as shown by the quote from the Cula-Malunkyovada sutta above.

To avoid “birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair”.

Ask a cosmologist, this is not a religious question.

rossum
So Buddhism doesn’t answer why are we here? or why should we reach nirvana? or how did i become to develop to be immortal being (since i rebirth i am quite clearly immortal)?

Probably it said to ask why is already wrong?

Seems catholicism is still the way to go if you actually want to learn something…
 
So Buddhism doesn’t answer why are we here?
As I said in my post, we are here because we failed to attain nirvana in our previous life. If you attain nirvana then you do not get reborn. If you miss attaining nirvana then you are reborn.
why should we reach nirvana?
Do you enjoy suffering or do you want to avoid it? Do you enjoy death or do you want to avoid it?
how did i become to develop to be immortal being (since i rebirth i am quite clearly immortal)?
You are not immortal because you change. The you that is now only lasts for an instant before it becomes a different you. At birth you weighed a few pounds and could not speak any language or operate a computer. The current you weighs rather more, speaks at least one language and can operate a computer. You have changed, and will continue to change. That which dies is not the same as that which is reborn.
Seems catholicism is still the way to go if you actually want to learn something…
Buddhism allows you to see things for yourself. You do not have to wait until after you die before you attain nirvana.[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya… everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

From: The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum
 
The thread is straying from the OP. Please take side discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you all.
 
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