Atheists - I am going to try something

[Hellisreal]

I am talking to a self proclaimed atheist (long story, she really is not I dont think) but I came up with an idea to hopefully understand her better-

any thoughts pro or con welcome if charitable

I am willing to stop being a Catholic for a month, so I can see better life through her lense.
No Mass, no confession, no nothing. I will take notes on how my life has changed and its effects. Hopefully I dont die in the month ahead, but I hope God will know my plan, and intentions.

If I share with her (what I think is pain long story trust me) maybe I can see the way I can reach her better?

Thoughts?

 

[Mirdath]

Won’t do anything. You’d be giving up the outward trappings of your religion, much as I could, if I wanted, go to church for a month. In neither case would our core beliefs change. You’d be a Catholic in the state of mortal sin, and I’d be an agnostic dancing the Vatican Rag and lipsynching to the Paternoster.

As far as I can tell, faith is not something one can voluntarily assume or give up. ‘Being an atheist for a month’ will only show that you place so little value on your belief that you’re willing to try to forsake it simply to win an argument. Not what you want to show someone you hope will accept that same belief. Don’t do it.

 

[Hellisreal]

Won’t do anything. You’d be giving up the outward trappings of your religion, much as I could, if I wanted, go to church for a month. In neither case would our core beliefs change. You’d be a Catholic in the state of mortal sin, and I’d be an agnostic dancing the Vatican Rag and lipsynching to the Paternoster.

As far as I can tell, faith is not something one can voluntarily assume or give up. ‘Being an atheist for a month’ will only show that you place so little value on your belief that you’re willing to try to forsake it **simply to win an argument. **Not what you want to show someone you hope will accept that same belief. Don’t do it.

NO- there is no argument! I simply like her! Never tried to argue with her or ever said anything to be controversial - no she was a Catholic, its a long story, her brother died in a car accident- she hates God now- Long story!

Goodness no! I am not trying to convert her (but it would be nice
I am trying to see things from her view and be a REAL FREIND not just a I am going to convert you but I could give a hoot

Plus, its sharing in HIS passion, his suffering is how i look at it.

Please- tell me if you got this wrong?

 

[exoflare]

Bad idea.

 

[Mirdath]

NO- there is no argument! I simply like her! Never tried to argue with her or ever said anything to be controversial - no she was a Catholic, its a long story, her brother died in a car accident- she hates God now- Long story!

Goodness no! I am not trying to convert her (but it would be nice
I am trying to see things from her view and be a REAL FREIND not just a I am going to convert you but I could give a hoot

Plus, its sharing in HIS passion, his suffering is how i look at it.

Please- tell me if you got this wrong?

Forgive me, I assumed this was part of a debate

If her lack of faith is motivated by grief, ‘converting’ for a time will do even less to help you understand, really – sad but true. From what you’ve said, the problem here is not a reasoned denial of God over lack of evidence or logical inconsistency but an emotional denial, a disappointment that a God who is all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful would choose to allow horrible things to happen.

Crises of faith can be sparked by reason and by emotion alike; in my case, it was reason, so I’m kinda feeling around in the dark here a bit. But in either case, faith doesn’t always survive, which actually compounds the problems. Losing faith, or even what you thought was faith, hurts like nothing else.

The best way to understand her position is simply to know that emotion drives us into many things; and the best way to foster her return is to be an example. Again, I don’t know for sure, given that I haven’t reverted ; but the living witness of certain religious people have given me quite a bit to look up to as a testament to the value of faith, even though I do not possess it.

 

[The_Truthinator]

In any case, Hellisreal, don’t forsake your faith to win a soul! You are then fighting against yourself. If you stand firm, she will notice and be more astonished than if you tried to sacrifice your beliefs to sympathize. She’d doubt your Christian hope.

If you have poverty of spirit, as Yeshua talked about, then you can relate to her in a way that is unique: You do not necessarily have to experience first-hand her trials to comprehend her position, for God will enable you. Ask for this. And what’s more, if you’re trying to document behavioral differences between Christians and non-Christians, then simply use some different subjects (for lack of better terms) that you know. Don’t experiment on yourself, for what if you lose yourself in the experiment? Who, then, will revive you?

Don’t do it. Stand strong in your Christian hope so she’ll see THAT, and not a friend desert their faith for a week … That would be terrible. Instead, through your humility, try your best to relate without compromising your beliefs. And pray. God will help.

 

[Hellisreal]

Forgive me, I assumed this was part of a debate

If her lack of faith is motivated by grief, ‘converting’ for a time will do even less to help you understand, really – sad but true. From what you’ve said, the problem here is not a reasoned denial of God over lack of evidence or logical inconsistency but an emotional denial, a disappointment that a God who is all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful would choose to allow horrible things to happen.

Crises of faith can be sparked by reason and by emotion alike; in my case, it was reason, so I’m kinda feeling around in the dark here a bit. But in either case, faith doesn’t always survive, which actually compounds the problems. Losing faith, or even what you thought was faith, hurts like nothing else.

The best way to understand her position is simply to know that emotion drives us into many things; and the best way to foster her return is to be an example. Again, I don’t know for sure, given that I haven’t reverted ; but the living witness of certain religious people have given me quite a bit to look up to as a testament to the value of faith, even though I do not possess it.

Forgiven! No problems here!

I am so very sad, even as I am typing this I just know in my heart she does not hate - How can you hate a God you say does not exist, so as you say its emotional yes!

But, I cant relate to this at all. I thought if I was deprived of the very things that keep me whole- then and only then could I understand what I take for granted each day. It would be a hard hard thing for me to do, but I really think if I did, I could feel something closer to a point of contact with her as she is, and I am not saying I could ever know, and I dont think one month is the magic number or I could ever know, I am just looking at ways to make a contact with what I do not understand or know.
I guess its like a real “walk in my shoes” the only way I can come up with.

I know this sounds crazy, I am just so filled with hope, and I agree- being a witness is the real way! That I am trying to do too! But, I was thinking radical - out of the box, something different. Okay, so maybe its not a good idea. I appreciate your thoughts very much.

 

[Hellisreal]

In any case, Hellisreal, don’t forsake your faith to win a soul! You are then fighting against yourself. If you stand firm, she will notice and be more astonished than if you tried to sacrifice your beliefs to sympathize. She’d doubt your Christian hope.

If you have poverty of spirit, as Yeshua talked about, then you can relate to her in a way that is unique: You do not necessarily have to experience first-hand her trials to comprehend her position, for God will enable you. Ask for this. And what’s more, if you’re trying to document behavioral differences between Christians and non-Christians, then simply use some different subjects (for lack of better terms) that you know. Don’t experiment on yourself, for what if you lose yourself in the experiment? Who, then, will revive you?

Don’t do it. Stand strong in your Christian hope so she’ll see THAT, and not a friend desert their faith for a week … That would be terrible. Instead, through your humility, try your best to relate without compromising your beliefs. And pray. God will help.

Thank you. But, call me crazy- (I do all the time) I am so sure NOTHING will ever put me in danger of loosing my faith,. I know, that sounds pridefull and even sounds too arrogant. But, I really know that this would be like dying doing this. to me. It would be like a death. Her loss was through death.
We as Christians see death as life.
This is what I think is her problem, and what is in a way MY problem in understanding her.
Know what I mean?

But, thank you, I will keep your thoughts in mind too.

 

[Hellisreal]

Bad idea.

Why?

 

[exoflare]

Why?

1. As somebody has pointed out already, you would still believe the same things in your heart… the only difference is that you would be “going through the motions” of being an atheist. Kind of reminds me of that old saying “being in church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than being at McDonalds makes you a hamburger.” Very profound, right? Well anyway…
2. It would be very unlikely that doing this would make you any more convincing in the eyes of your atheist friend. Just keep being there for her and bear witness to truth at every moment (this doesn’t mean trying to FORCE it on her, of course). Her decision will be her own in the end, and you will rest easier knowing that whatever decision she ended up making you did all that you could.

 

[Mirdath]

But, I cant relate to this at all. I thought if I was deprived of the very things that keep me whole- then and only then could I understand what I take for granted each day. It would be a hard hard thing for me to do, but I really think if I did, I could feel something closer to a point of contact with her as she is, and I am not saying I could ever know, and I dont think one month is the magic number or I could ever know, I am just looking at ways to make a contact with what I do not understand or know.
I guess its like a real “walk in my shoes” the only way I can come up with.

Thing is, it would just be you as a Catholic not going to church for a while. You aren’t (I hope) going to actually lose your faith for a short time just by doing that. You can copy reason somewhat – I took a dare here a while back and prayed once a day for three weeks – but you can’t really do that with emotion.

So, yeah. It may seem trite to say this, but you really can’t understand it fully without having at least gone through a crisis of faith yourself. Whatever its cause, it’s a state fraught with emotion and pain.

I have to say though, it’s awesome that you’re actually trying to understand it even a little bit! Altogether too many people have no idea what a true crisis of faith is like, and think it’s just a little thing or a phase – it’s neither. So thank you!

I know this sounds crazy, I am just so filled with hope, and I agree- being a witness is the real way! That I am trying to do too! But, I was thinking radical - out of the box, something different. Okay, so maybe its not a good idea. I appreciate your thoughts very much.

Just remember, too far out of the box = overboard

 

[The_Truthinator]

I would honestly lose all respect, even before my conversion a year ago to the Faith, for someone who abandoned their faith knowingly just as a feeble effort to convince someone else they can “sympathize,” which is something our FAITH ALREADY ENABLES US TO DO …

What’s more, have you not noticed, everyone here is saying the same thing: Don’t do it. We are all Christians here, and I think you should listen. Remember,

“The mouth of the upright utters wisdom.” --Prov. 10

In other words, a sound, godly Christian is going to give you advice as through the very mouth of Christ! Here we are, all agreed, that this plan is corrupt.

“Wisdom lies with those who take advice.” --Prov. 13

Solomon calls you a fool if you do not heed our advice.

“Contempt for the word is self-destructive.” --Prov. 13

Ignoring our words is dangerous in such a serious matter.

“Without deliberation plans come to nothing. Plans succeed where counsellors are many.”
–Prov. 15

Here you have many consellors, but if you do not listen, your plan will come to ruin.

I urge you, listen to the Scriptures, the Word of God, which tells you to listen to us …

 

[Hellisreal]

Okay, I took all your thoughts and gave this some more thought and actually I am thankfull you all were nice to me but firm in your advice.

I actually thought about 2 things that may also be negative on this.

1. Even if she did eventually start to reach out again to her faith, and years later what if she tried this with someone else? And what if with her- it would blow up? (even if she did come back in time, it may be a long time before she may be ready to do such a thing without loosing her newfound faith)
   Not good.
2. How could I confess an “experiment”? It would be really knowing I was committing a mortal sin. Full knowledge.

so I guess I wont be doing this then. I could meditate each day about it, and spend time thinking about this more, maybe read a few books that could help me understand her better.

In any case, thanks for not being mean to me about this!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

If you dont mind another suggestion . . .

I was thinking of a U2 song Bad where he sings “If I could, through myself, set your spirit free” and thats what your trying to do and its totally admirable and a good friend.

The answer to her is to let it go, the things that bind her down, you would but cant, she needs to, but she needs to get to that place.

If shes mad at God tell her to tell Him that, have it out, challenge Him. Hes big and can take it, and when shes finished, if shes honest, she will realise He does have big shoulders. Sometimes we dont think God understands or knows our problems, But He does, Jesus wept right?

 

[Good_Fella]

So, you wish to cut yourself off from God’s grace for a month by denying
yourself the Sacraments and violate the Sunday obligation of attending
Mass for the sake of an experiment? We can empathise with someone
without literally assuming her state or condition. Why not inject yourself
with cancerous blood cells to feel how it’s like to suffer from lukemia
while you’re at it? It would be a more feasible thing to do, since atheism
is a totally abstract state. One cannot sweep his genuine Faith under the
carpet, in the meantime, unless he genuinely loses his faith entirely.

 

[ltbpoe43]

Agree with others - not a good idea and won’t really change perception of either party.

Try connecting by showing your friend that others who have dealt with loss and grief seek to be healed of the hurt by turning to their faith. I’m sure there is lots of testimonials of those in similar situations as hers that have actually turned to God for healing and comfort. That may be a better plan for both of you.
Good luck.

 

[nichjake]

Even if you did this you would not be able to grasp what its like to be Atheist because in your heart you would still carry your faith with you. You wouldn’t be able to experience what being an Atheist is like because you wouldn’t be one even if you shed your outer religious trappings. Pretending to be something you’re not is never a good way to increase your understanding.

 

[Hellisreal]

So, you wish to cut yourself off from God’s grace for a month by denying
yourself the Sacraments and violate the Sunday obligation of attending
Mass for the sake of an experiment? We can empathise with someone
without literally assuming her state or condition. Why not inject yourself
with cancerous blood cells to feel how it’s like to suffer from lukemia
while you’re at it? It would be a more feasible thing to do, since atheism
is a totally abstract state. One cannot sweep his genuine Faith under the
carpet, in the meantime, unless he genuinely loses his faith entirely.

I appreciate your direct approach Good Fella, but I currently have 2 close family members that have cancer, one is terminal and dying right now, the other- we are hoping it will be gone and not come back again.

I was looking at it as offering it up- the sacraments are what make me whole, the life I lead in prayer, reading God’s word, all of it, its as much a part of me as breathing.

I was hoping God would know why I was doing it, and that he would know I would be suffering doing it.

But, dont worry! I am not doing it. I just thought, why not offer up a suffering for another to hope some good fruit would come from it for us both?

But I am seeing that I dont think things through and how can I? How can I know what it is like for her? Thus, the as Mirdath rightfully pointed out was too outside the box. Like I said books may help me try to feel what she is going through maybe, again- not that even that would do the trick but to me this is incomprehensible and how can God get mad at us for wanting to help someone else come back to him?

 

[Hellisreal]

Even if you did this you would not be able to grasp what its like to be Atheist because in your heart you would still carry your faith with you. You wouldn’t be able to experience what being an Atheist is like because you wouldn’t be one even if you shed your outer religious trappings. Pretending to be something you’re not is never a good way to increase your understanding.

Hello! I dont feel like my faith is an “outer religious trapping(s)”
It is infused in my heart mind soul and body. No, I could not eradicate totally my Christian blood so to speak, but I could suffer and suffer greatly (much like a radical fasting) the loss of what I consider to be what is me.
I would not be pretending I would be trying to see how ones perspective, how one relates to themselves and others and the concept of being “without God” as much as I would be able to — as some way to understand.

*Let me also make it clear to everyone- I think some people misunderstood and thought I would be TELLING her I was doing this! NO!
I would not tell her I was doing this, just as we should not boast about fasting ect,. I was going to just DO IT.

 

[Hellisreal]

Agree with others - not a good idea and won’t really change perception of either party.

Try connecting by showing your friend that others who have dealt with loss and grief seek to be healed of the hurt by turning to their faith. I’m sure there is lots of testimonials of those in similar situations as hers that have actually turned to God for healing and comfort. That may be a better plan for both of you.
Good luck.

Her family tried that with her. They used the examples of the saints too.
It did not work I guess.