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josie_L
Guest
Fair enough, but Spider Man, Dare Devil, Batman, Superman . . . were all theists.yes, but they’re atheists too
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Hobble
Guest
But spider was a wimp, batman didn’t have any powers, superman wore his underwear outside of his clothes, and I don’t even know about dardevil.Fair enough, but Spider Man, Dare Devil, Batman, Superman . . . were all theists.
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Hobble
Guest
I doubt superman was, he was an alien.Fair enough, but Spider Man, Dare Devil, Batman, Superman . . . were all theists.
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josie_L
Guest
From what I understand (reading the insightful critiques of comic nutcases) he was a Methodist or Presbyterian.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
and they all share something in common with Jesus … they’re all hero’s in a fictional storyFair enough, but Spider Man, Dare Devil, Batman, Superman . . . were all theists.
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humble_maid
Guest
Hahaha…thank you for making me laugh. It’s good to see that we can find humor on these threads instead of the usual sarcasm. Peace!nahh … it’s just that non-theists are a cut above the rest
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josie_L
Guest
I already stated that the historical figures in the NT are real, furthermore, it is just your opinion that leads you to believe it is fictional. There have been scholars of many fields who have dissected the Bible for decades now, without doing damage to the credibility of the Bible.and they all share something in common with Jesus … they’re all hero’s in a fictional story
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yankee_doodle
Guest
I said hero’s in a fictional story … meaning the story is fictional (not necessarily the hero, although of course comic book hero’s are fictional). Nevertheless, as I’ve said here plenty of times, I do think it’s possible, maybe even likely Jesus existed. I just know within myself that the supernatural stuff is myth.
You can call it opinion, but it’s opinion based on plenty of facts. Moreover, while these historians you’re talking about have discovered many things about early Christians, even a few scattered references to Jesus by secular (or at least non-Christian) sources, there’s nothing that would lead the academic world into believing the life-death-rebirth narrative of Christianity.
It’s like I said to another poster (who also objected to my use of comparative mythology), if a guy came up to you who you knew was from a country prone to bizarre religions, like myths about the lasagna god, macaroni god, and rigatoni god, who tried to convert you over to the religion of the spaghetti god, what would you think
There is an objective definition of reasonable.
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josie_L
Guest
But how do you know? You see as a theist I have faith as an explanation (and reason as well but to a lesser degree) in believing what I do (it’s a sense of knowing), however, as an atheist you have only your mind on which you rely, that although helps you to understand much of the world is not capable of going back into time to verify the truths of the Bible. There is no way you can say that you know.
Moreover, I believe faith is like a microscope in that it lets you see things you would not normally see under normal circumstances, i.e., your eyesight alone would not suffice to see what would appear under such magnified lens. Faith therefore is the instrument that allows us to know of things unseen beyond what our senses reveal.
The facts of your limited knowledge do not give you the full picture needed to make the correct verdict (I suggest you continue to search as this question of God’s existence is vitally important), also, no one can be led to believe in the life-death-resurrection of Jesus on a rationally basis alone, it takes the grace of God to make us into believers.
I’ve said it once and I’ve said it again the basis for your comparative mythology is skewed, you are not seeking information from scholars but scrummaging atheist websites bent on diminishing the truth claims of Christianity (furthermore I provided you with a website that had credible sources/scholars and was footnoted, and you completely ignored it).It’s like I said to another poster (who also objected to my use of comparative mythology), if a guy came up to you who you knew was from a country prone to bizarre religions, like myths about the lasagna god, macaroni god, and rigatoni god, who tried to convert you over to the religion of the spaghetti god, what would you think
Here’s that website (scroll down to “ANSWERS TO ANTI-CATHOLIC OBJECTIONS” to view the articles below), bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm:
Evidence for Jesus and the Parallel “Pagan Savior” Myths by PhilVaz
Examination of the parallel pagan “crucified savior” myths (Dionysos, Mithras, Osiris, etc) and the evidence for Jesus
Shattering the Internet Mythicists by PhilVaz
Review of J.P. Holding’s book Shattering the Christ Myth, discussion with some Internet Infidels “mythicists”
All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ? by PhilVaz
Demolition of the “Zeitgeist” Movie and others who claim Horus = Jesus
Review and Critique of “The God Who Wasn’t There” by Mike Licona
A detailed critique of the “Jesus-myth” DVD featuring skeptics Brian Flemming, Earl Doherty, Robert Price, and others
Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? What is the Evidence? by Peter Kreeft
A reply and challenge to skeptics, adapted from chapter 8 of Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft/Tacelli
Debate on the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus (HTML) by William Lane Craig vs. Bart Ehrman
There is an objective definition of reasonable, but there is also faith.
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humble_maid
Guest
Josie, I think Yankee knows more about us than we realize: for instance using Pasta Gods, I think he suspects we are italian. Personally I would not give up lasagna for spaghetti. His humor is quite inspiring.
On a more serious note, I understand the argument Yankee is making. However, I know that believing is not solely a matter of intellect but of reasonable trust. To trust something your eyes can’t see or your hands can’t touch is difficult to understand but trust is the word we should focus on.
God Bless and Peace.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
Yes there is a way I can say I know. We don’t know anything to a 100% certainty, the only thing we know is practical reality.
If someone asked you do you believe in leprechauns, I’m sure you would think it was a ridiculous question. Yet, can you say with 100% certainty there was never a leprechaun anywhere in the universe at any point in the past? No, you can’t, just like I can’t make an absolute claim about anything (much less the idea of a god). What I can say is I don’t believe in religious myths anymore than I believe in leprechauns.
You say Jesus was a real person (and there’s some evidence to suggest that might be true). Yet Buddha was also a real person; and some of his followers view him as a god. Muhammad was a real person. The ancient Greeks thought Plato was a god of sorts (and even believed he was the product of a virgin birth). We’re pretty darn sure Plato was a real guy.
What does that even mean? Isn’t this really touchy feely stuff you just made up?
I know you guys use this sort of rhetoric to infer atheists and other nonbelievers are not in tune emotionally, we’re hard and insensitive, etc.; which of course is an irrational argument.
Again … not a rational argument. I could invent the spaghetti religion, and say the same sort of thing about you. You have limited knowledge, and you’ve never felt the depth of emotion and love eating spaghetti gives you (well, really good spaghetti may actually have this effect
).I could say it takes the grace of spaghetti to make us into believers (well, at least we would have a tangible way to access that grace, the nearest Italian restaurant).
Huh? The only links I’ve provided to comparative mythology information has been stuff like Wikipedia and the footnotes they rely on
Sadly, I’ve read many of your apologists (particularly Craig), what a colossal waste of time. Guy’s like Craig can tell tall tales about divine omniscience and knowledge of counterfactuals all he wants, it doesn’t make it any less foolish.
I’m also very familiar with J.P. Holding. They’re really aimed at debunking the “Christ myth” theory (or the idea that Jesus never lived). A thoughtful atheist shouldn’t make this sort of assumption. There’s a huge difference in making reasonable assumptions, and speculation.
Like my earlier (even if silly) example of the spaghetti religion evangelist who came from the land of pasta myths. It’s perfectly possible the purveyor of the spaghetti religion has the best myth going, and his myth may even be considerably unique. But yet we know it’s just another pasta myth. Even the Horus stuff isn’t very compelling, because Horus (or Osiris) is just one of many parallels that exist (and although for whatever reason Horus wound up becoming a favorite among some atheists, it’s hardly the best mythological comparison to Jesus).
It’s very clear to me that Jesus is just another in a long series of life-death-rebirth gods and virgin birth motifs. A real guy, yes perhaps, but there were so many mythological interpolations there’s no way to know where myth ends and truth begins (except to know the supernatural elements of the story are obviously absurd).
The religion was picked up by an empire, who did who knows what with it. At the end of the day, all the spin in the world cannot make religion reasonable.
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josie_L
Guest
Had he said gnocchi, I would have definitely gone for that.Josie, I think Yankee knows more about us than we realize: for instance using Pasta Gods, I think he suspects we are italian. Personally I would not give up lasagna for spaghetti. His humor is quite inspiring.
On a more serious note, I understand the argument Yankee is making. However, I know that believing is not solely a matter of intellect but of reasonable trust. To trust something your eyes can’t see or your hands can’t touch is difficult to understand but trust is the word we should focus on.
God Bless and Peace.
p.s. Either he suspects we’re Italian or he is one (at least partly).
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yankee_doodle
Guest
I don’t think I knew you were Italian … but the flying spaghetti monster is a common quip among us heathens (I just created a nice little variation that fit the point I was trying to make)
I do love spaghetti though?
Well, sure … but believers in Zeus and Odin would have said the same thingGod Bless and Peace.
I have an idea … you and Josie can form a singing duet (the apologetic sisters). You could incorporate nun uniforms into your act. Don’t forget me when you get famous!
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josie_L
Guest
My sister can’t sing for sh*t. God bless.I don’t think I knew you were Italian … but the flying spaghetti monster is a common quip among us heathens (I just created a nice little variation that fit the point I was trying to make)
I do love spaghetti though?
Well, sure … but believers in Zeus and Odin would have said the same thing
I have an idea … you and Josie can form a singing duet (the apologetic sisters). You could incorporate nun uniforms into your act. Don’t forget me when you get famous!
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josie_L
Guest
My faith and prayer life is a testament to God’s presence and acknowledgement, therefore, I am 100% certain of his existence.
If no one knew of leprechauns or wrote of Leprechauns (as really existing) or then suffered for leprechauns preaching their leprechaun beliefs and then dying for their leprechaun lord, then why would I or anyone else believe in leprechauns?
But Buddha (and Plato) never claimed to be God, Mohammed was a war mongering sex driven plagiarizing narcissist (so yeah he was real), and as for Jesus, he was and did at one time exist, no credible scholar believes otherwise.
I’m just giving you an analogy of how I see faith, why can’t I?
Honestly, do you always have to act like I’m “victimizing” you?
If you were serious about what you believed in (and it changed your life for the better) and I knew you to be a rational person, I would hear you out, and give you a chance to speak of your experiences.Again … not a rational argument. I could invent the spaghetti religion, and say the same sort of thing about you. You have limited knowledge, and you’ve never felt the depth of emotion and love eating spaghetti gives you (well, really good spaghetti may actually have this effect
Alrighty then, state why?
Really, because Craig defeated Anthony Flew (when he was an atheist) in a debate about God’s existence.
Again what are your qualifications in surmising this when you yourself initially believed the Horus/Jesus parallels even though I have shown you how false the comparisons were? Furthermore, I am not speaking of religion I am refering to Jesus and the things stated about him by his disciples.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
sentiment, nostalgia, and the emotional and psychological investment you have in your beliefs is not tangible or objective proof.
I’m not a leprechaun expert (so I don’t know how comparable Irish myths of little green men are to contemporary religion). However, the point was simply to show the difference between practical and exhaustive knowledge.
Moreover, I imagine people did write something about leprechauns, and dying for a set of beliefs doesn’t prove anything about those beliefs.
It is true Buddha and Plato never claimed to be god, but there’s no real proof Jesus did either. What is reasonable to assume is today’s New Testament does not accurately represent the ministry of Jesus Christ (if he ever had one). There’s been so many mythological interpolations we simply can’t discern reality from myth (except insofar as knowing what is within the range of possibility and what isn’t).
You can, but it’s not a logical argument.
it is true you guys use that sort of rhetoric to paint atheists as cold, unemotional people (in fact if I didn’t anticipate the tactic I’m sure you would have resorted to it … it’s pattern behavior).
You would give serious consideration to a religion worshiping the spaghetti monster?
You’re being intellectually dishonest (as usual)
you want me to argue in favor of an analogy I used – the imaginary religion of the spaghetti monster?
Thanks, it was a hard day at work today (I needed a laugh)
I thought you guys said Flew was mentally handicapped? So Craig defeated someone with a mental disability … I’m impressed.
There are some parallels with Horus, and you haven’t shown anything of any substantive value. Few of your arguments rely on credible unbiased authorities (you usually rely on strange religious apologetic sites, and I don’t think I ever remember seeing you cite something even as credible as a Wikipedia article, much less a university article, a study from a well known and respected scientific magazine, or anything like that).
I could show you the undeniable pattern in mythology, but it wouldn’t matter, because no matter how unreasonable your position is – you probably won’t deviate from it (which is the classic definition of, ahh I won’t say it).
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josie_L
Guest
Tangible proof of prayers being answered (constantly) and other faith filled events in my life are to me the acknowledgement of God’s love and presence. God exists.
No the point is no one has ever stated leprechauns exist or as taken their existence seriously (do you see modern day scholars debating the existence of leprechauns or writing books about “the Leprechaun Delusion”).
A Jew named Jesus of the 1st century who was crucified by Pontius Pilate did exist, the secular sources prove that he did (this is the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible, the question is, does the NT speak the truth of Jesus, the Christ resurrected?)
You mean like the pattern behaviour you’re exhibiting about us theists, that is, we’re delusional, irrational, brainwashed . . . etc.
Again, we’re not talking about the spaghetti monster per se so much as the very real possibility of a God existing? And the amount of evidence for God is more than you think it is, so if you would just open your mind a little then maybe we’d get somewhere?
And I’m going to say this for the last time, stop calling me intellectually “dishonest”, got it Yankee!
Let’s pretend the thumb is really my middle finger.No he is not senile (never was), but since he’s converted that is what some atheists have now come to view him (it’s pretty hard for them to digest because he was the poster boy for atheism in the 20th century).
You can’t be possibly saying that I haven’t used or attempted to use credible sources when supporting my views, of all the temerity, when it’s you whose opinions go unsubstantiated most of the time.
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DOShea
Guest
You know, I’m kind of curious. You seem like someone very intelligent and one who respects factual evidence, so I’m wondering if you’ve ever looked up the name of any of the still living people who were cured by what the Church has declared a miraculous cure and contacted them to get the straight facts directly? No Church spin, right from the horse’s mouth. If not, how can you so easily dismiss them with one broad stroke of the brush?
There are other more tangible things than simply the recollection of someone who thinks they saw something. First hand accounts, written; scientific evidence like blood tests and tissue samples, the same evidence anyone, religious faith or not, would readily accept in a court of law. Many of these defy any known scientific cause, yet they mesh precisely with all those thousands of accounts of personal revelations, mystic phenomena, etc.
How do you view all these things pointing in the same direction and simply dismiss them with the wave of a hand? I’m just wondering why you wouldn’t apply the same kind of critical analysis to these as you would, say, population statistics in Sweeden? That sort of baffles me, and makes me wonder how would an objective observer explain that apparent reluctance on your part to another person? Would they say you are fearful? Willfully dismissive without any just cause other than your own firmly held beliefs that you don’t wish to challenge lest they require adjustment? I’m not sure any of those apply to you since I don’t know you, but an application of Occam’s Razor sould not produce results far off from them. I would be interested in how you would explain it
But it does say something about how much value the individual placed in the belief. It proves the person either had a very strong confidence in them or was a complete fool.
If we examine the rest of their lives, one would expect to find other traces of foolish or gullible behavior that would lend credence to the notion they were easily taken in by a peddler of nonsense. I’ve never seen any kind of evidence like that, on the contrary we find people who exercise sound judgment, led sober, serious lives of service to others. They just don’t appear foolish in any other way.
Based on what facts in evidence?
Could you cite for me one accredited, mainstream biblical scholar who holds this view?
This strikes me as self-serving and logically fallacious seeing as how you’re the one spending the most ink in this topic calling it myth. Call it a myth, then claim we can’t sort it out because so many call it a myth? What kind of logic is that?
First, is there one or is this a red herring? If there is one, what is the evidence?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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humble_maid
Guest
Josie your remark about my singingwas a little harsh. I can sing the Ave Maria really well; my kids said so. Though, I concede that you have a better voice.
My dear, I see things have gone back to their usual. I will come back later, right now I am busy. Just remember Josie that you are who you are and no one will change that. Keep it steady.
My dear, I see things have gone back to their usual. I will come back later, right now I am busy. Just remember Josie that you are who you are and no one will change that. Keep it steady.
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josie_L
Guest
I was exaggerating the remark for effect (although I must tell you now you don’t have a singing career ahead of you), it was suppose to make you laugh!!Josie your remark about my singingwas a little harsh. I can sing the Ave Maria really well; my kids said so. Though, I concede that you have a better voice.
My dear, I see things have gone back to their usual. I will come back later, right now I am busy. Just remember Josie that you are who you are and no one will change that. Keep it steady.
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