Atheists, please present your evidence

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VociMike

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Atheists (and agnostics) are big on demanding evidence for God. That is not a bad thing, of course. But I don’t see any evidence coming from their side. Who knows, maybe I just wasn’t paying attention. So now that I am paying attention I’d like to ask atheists for their evidence, as follows:
  1. If you believe that the universe had to exist of necessity, please present your logical argument for that belief.
  2. If you believe that the universe did not have to exist, but (obviously) exists nonetheless, please present your scientific evidence to account for the non-necessary existence of the universe.
 
I don’t know if there needs to be a necessity for the universe. If there is one, I don’t know how it can be tested.
 
VociMike said:
Atheists (and agnostics) are big on demanding evidence for God. That is not a bad thing, of course. But I don’t see any evidence coming from their side. Who knows, maybe I just wasn’t paying attention. So now that I am paying attention I’d like to ask atheists for their evidence, as follows:
  1. If you believe that the universe had to exist of necessity, please present your logical argument for that belief.
  2. If you believe that the universe did not have to exist, but (obviously) exists nonetheless, please present your scientific evidence to account for the non-necessary existence of the universe.
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Just out of curiosity, assuming that an atheist could not present evidence for those two statements, how would that necessarily prove that (a) a God exists, and (b) that God is the one best described by the Christian religion?
 
theistgal said:
Just out of curiosity, assuming that an atheist could not present evidence for those two statements, how would that necessarily prove that (a) a God exists, and (b) that God is the one best described by the Christian religion?
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It wouldn’t prove those things. What it would do is demonstrate that atheism is actually a position of faith, not a position of proof or fact.
 
VociMike said:
It wouldn’t prove those things. What it would do is demonstrate that atheism is actually a position of faith, not a position of proof or fact.
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Faith in what? That there is not enough information to know these things?
 
StrawberryJam said:
Faith in what? That there is not enough information to know these things?
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Faith that the world is a certain way (that it exists or came into existence without God).

Atheists usually present the situation as faith (theists) vs. fact or evidence (atheists). So I’m looking for the facts, the evidence.
 
The problem is that when it comes to the origin of the universe, no one alive today “knows” how it all started. (That applies to Christians as well as atheists, btw. 😉 )
 
theistgal said:
The problem is that when it comes to the origin of the universe, no one alive today “knows” how it all started. (That applies to Christians as well as atheists, btw. 😉 )
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Then atheists must be holding their position via faith, right?

So either the theist and atheist positions are both based on faith, or the atheist position is based on evidence in a way that the theist position is not. And that’s the crux of my question.
 
VociMike said:
Then atheists must be holding their position via faith, right?

So either the theist and atheist positions are both based on faith, or the atheist position is based on evidence in a way that the theist position is not. And that’s the crux of my question.
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In which case both the atheist and theist positions are pretty much equal. 👍
 
VociMike said:
Atheists (and agnostics) are big on demanding evidence for God. That is not a bad thing, of course. But I don’t see any evidence coming from their side.
Click to expand...
Agnostics do not need to provide evidence since they are not making any assertions. Please don’t clump agnosticism and atheism in the same category. They are not the same.
 
VociMike said:
Atheists (and agnostics) are big on demanding evidence for God. That is not a bad thing, of course. But I don’t see any evidence coming from their side. Who knows, maybe I just wasn’t paying attention. So now that I am paying attention I’d like to ask atheists for their evidence, as follows:
  1. If you believe that the universe had to exist of necessity, please present your logical argument for that belief.
  2. If you believe that the universe did not have to exist, but (obviously) exists nonetheless, please present your scientific evidence to account for the non-necessary existence of the universe.
Click to expand...
I’m not an atheist but I was one for nearly 20 years (before it was trendy!). However as both a theist and an ex-atheist I don’t really understand what you are asking (from an ex-atheistic point of view I might say that it was simply a matter of probability of whether the universe came into existence - but science does not and cannot really explore what happened to create the universe).
 
Oreoracle said:
Agnostics do not need to provide evidence since they are not making any assertions. Please don’t clump agnosticism and atheism in the same category. They are not the same.
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I have found that some agnostics are truly that, and others seem to have a definite inclination towards atheism. I would think that the latter should have evidence to justify that inclination.
 
VociMike said:
I have found that some agnostics are truly that, and others seem to have a definite inclination towards atheism. I would think that the latter should have evidence to justify that inclination.
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I’m not sure how useful it is to continually ask each other to justify our beliefs - it assumes that all belief is a product of conscious rational consideration whereas I think for many of us it is more subconscious/intuitive than that.
 
StrawberryJam said:
I don’t know if there needs to be a necessity for the universe. If there is one, I don’t know how it can be tested.
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all things in the universe might not have been and are therefore contingent.

in order to have a causal chain of contingent beings, you must have a first cause, that is not contingent itself, because then it would not be first cause. if you have no first cause, you can have no second, third or fourth…

therefore it doesnt matter if we assume an eternal universe or not. an infinite chain of contingent beings is impossible without a first cause
 
VociMike said:
I have found that some agnostics are truly that, and others seem to have a definite inclination towards atheism. I would think that the latter should have evidence to justify that inclination.
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I would not use the word faith in either case though. If presented with evidence that God did in fact cause all things to be, then the athiest/agnostic would re-consider and or change their position. I do not represent either group, but I think that would be a fair thing to say. I am not sure that a christian would be able to call something faith if they left an opening for changing their position. However, I am not sure that is a matter of dogma to hold either way for a christian.🤷
 
warpspeedpetey said:
all things in the universe might not have been and are therefore contingent.

in order to have a causal chain of contingent beings, you must have a first cause, that is not contingent itself, because then it would not be first cause. if you have no first cause, you can have no second, third or fourth…

therefore it doesnt matter if we assume an eternal universe or not. an infinite chain of contingent beings is impossible without a first cause
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The first cause argument is not very convincing to me. It is simply an apologetic christians use, not fact.
 
Michael96 said:
I’m not sure how useful it is to continually ask each other to justify our beliefs - it assumes that all belief is a product of conscious rational consideration whereas I think for many of us it is more subconscious/intuitive than that.
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That may very well be true, but good luck getting most atheists to agree. By and large they seem to think they have evidence and reason on their side.
 
Mersenne said:
How does that demonstrate that?
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By the very definition of the word.

But I’m not interested in getting sidetracked. I’m interested in either the logical argument that the universe must of necessity exist, or the scientific evidence as to why it does exist even though it need not.
 
VociMike,

Can you present your definition of an atheist and of an agnostic please. It might make it easier to respond to your original post.
 
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