Atheists pursuing the truth (but still don't understand Catholicism)

[sealabeag]

OK, let’s accept that for the sake of argument. What Church document can you cite, which makes the claim you’re making here?

Just so we understand each other (because sometimes on here people can go in circles arguing when in the end they actually agree lol) and before I look into it further - I’m saying that hearing the Gospel would make one no longer invincibly ignorant, regardless of one accepting it as true or not. You are disagreeing with that? You would say that one who hears the Gospel but does not accept it as true is still invincibly ignorant?

 

[sealabeag]

Ah yeah, of course there is definitely a spectrum of culpability, if you will, and as many different levels of understanding as there are people. I would never presume to understand any individual’s soul, but just as a general principle, I would say that if one has heard the basics of the Gospel, they are no longer invincibly ignorant. They may still be somewhat ignorant, to differing degrees, though.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m saying that hearing the Gospel would make one no longer invincibly ignorant, regardless of one accepting it as true or not. You are disagreeing with that?

Yes, I am. “Hearing” is not the standard being proposed for us.

You would say that one who hears the Gospel but does not accept it as true is still invincibly ignorant?

Absolutely, although I would nuance it: some who hear but refuse to accept may not be invincibly ignorant. However, “hearing” does not create culpability.

Well, but what level of stupidity would make someone not culpable for her actions?

That’s the point. It’s a discussion of culpability. (Sometimes, that culpability proceeds from what you’re calling “stupidity”; sometimes, from other causes.)

just as a general principle, I would say that if one has heard the basics of the Gospel, they are no longer invincibly ignorant.

Fine. I get that this is what you believe. Can you support it, though, from a magisterial source?

 

[sealabeag]

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Just to reply to this with reference to your other replies - these are two different things we are taking about. The quote you provided simply addresses those who know the truth and yet reject it. It doesn’t address those who have heard the truth and reject it, for a variety if reasons. No, I can’t provide any Church teaching atm, but I’ll see what I can find. But I think many examples from the Scriptures are relevant - Pharoah heard but hardened his heart and refused to believe and was condemned. The Pharisees were condemned - one could very easily make the argument, based on your position, that they didn’t believe, therefore there was no culpability.
Certainly those who cannot find themselves able to believe, although earnestly seeking, fall into a different category, and in all cases only God can judge, but I think it would be coherent with the Scriptures to say that hearing the Gospel removes invincible ignorance.
Any theologians here with more definitive (name removed by moderator)ut?

 

[Mrchatsworth]

OK. Bear with me for a minute.
Sometimes in the hispanic community there is an image of God the Father that is very rough and masculine. He is strict and a diciplinarian. Much like the machismo of some hispanic cultural fathers,

See, the problem with this imperfect understanding of the “Father” God is that we have imperfect experiences with fathers. Perhaps this is what could be making him see God as an evil punisher. But God is not the father we have been exposed to, He is the PERFECT father. A loving and forgiving and teaching one.
The hispanic example is to show that sometimes when this view of God presents itself, it is easier and perhaps more benificial to go through Mary to get to God. Perhaps this is why Our Lady has enjoyed the adoration of so many. She always points to the Son, and through the Son, the Father. So, perhaps pray to Mary to help him. Also, approach him in a Marian way. This could be extremely effective.

Though your boyfriend does not sound like a true athiest. Asserting a positive negative (there is no God)
Ask him this.
On what basis, do you love me? On what morality is it wrong to hurt me or be untrue to me or hurt our children. How do you arrive at the morality of honor, fidelity, love, and caring for others. God has to play into it or it is a very fragile system. If an athiest says, “well, human society defines though majority rule what is wrong and right” then that majority rule changes constantly and certainly historically was incredibly brutal.

Finally,
If you wish to move forward in your relationship toward marriage. Realize that there are only two options for your family. 1) He converts, you marry and he is a devout Catholic.
or 2) He doesn’t convert, he consents to the children and you living out your faith without him and you respect his beliefs and he respects yours. These are the only real acceptable outcomes for a Catholic to pursue.
You should not think that you will wear him down and convert him someday, and you must not lose your own faith because of him.
Living a Catholic marriage is HARD. I cannot even imagine how hard it woudl be to practice NFP, raise children and live up to your obligations as a Catholic Family with a non Christian Spouse. I hear it has been done. Ive never seen it in real life.

 

[Bill1]

Hello, I am Bill. I really enjoyed reading about your boy friend. If he truly can not get on board with Christion beliefs, he is not lost. We are taught that some will hear, so wont. If he does as you say, Ask Knock and Seek the Kingdome of God, it is as if he were a childe. You can not sin unless you KNOW it is a sin. Keep up your support. Ask him to go with you to your church on any given day, (most catholic churches have mass on a daily basis) you have a chance to expose him to the truth. Ask him to go with you for you. Not for religion. That will come in time. Good to know you care so much. He is Very Lucky. May Our Father Bless you In Jesus name. Amen.

 

[thelightoftheworld]

Ok, so… I’m gonna respond mainly on the first part since people are arguing about invincible ignorance.
But before addressing the points, I’d like to advise you to pray a lot about it so you keep the faith and also I’d advise you have spiritual readings because when we are hearing a relative doubting God and “attacking” the essence of who God is… it’s kind of hard to have a clear idea of what God will is and especially in your case… who God is…
Great spiritual readings of mystics are those of Saint Therese of Lisieux, Saint Faustina, Saint Bridget of sweden…
That being said I’d like to respond to the saying that God woudn’t not answer his prayers and the saying that God isn’t Good (in the example of the israelites)…

So I will say that the subject of suffering and “unanswered” prayers is a very hard one. I’ve myself struggled with the fact that Jesus refused to say “YES” to all my prayers. My childhood was also far from perfect and sometimes I’m almost blaming God for not answering me but when I think back… I was a terrible sinner. And the fact is that we are all sinners and God is the only One who knows what is truly good for us. This can seem like a typical catholic way of addressing the problem but it is the truth. At our level it’s hard to see what’s truly good for us. Maybe a good way for you to understand that before trying to give your boyfriend an answer would be to look at the way many Saints had very torturous lives but weren’t abandoned at all by God.
But when you speak with an atheist, it’s hard to address this… I don’t even know how I would respond to your boyfriend in this case because having talked to a lot of them I know that they are all different and there is not one answer for everybody. I’d say that there is two main different ways for explaining evil and suffering. -good and evil in the world and free will, -value of offering our sufferings for causes.

Then on the violence of the Israelites, I’ve heard two main answers.
One big thing to understand is that God created us, and so, he then have the authority to take the life of who he wants. And we believe that this happens everyday when someone dies old or too young or miraculously survives an accident… I’m sure you’ve heard of the near death experiences where people were asked by God to stay on hearth…
When you admit that God has this authority and that he is the creator of objective moral and the concepts of good and evil, then we have can’t criticize God for ordering the Israelites to kill a group of people… But if we look deeper into the Bible, we see that God order that because of the immoralities and sins that are going on. So this is completely justified.
Then we could find cruel that God also orders to kill innocent children. But let’s think about it. Do you think it would be better for a child to die at the order of God and quit this earth or to stay in a perverse and sinful environnement where he risks to lose his soul and his purity ?
Of course that answer will not be completely understood by the world as it deals with spiritual matter.

I hope this makes sense. I’ll pray for you. I know what you and your boyfriend are going through.
God bless !

 

[Bill1]

In response to this post by ? I would say. A priest. May God Bless you Father.
It is enough that a man would be lost not knowing the end, than he who is all knowing and breaks this trust. The heart of man is with Our Father. And so, if a man has told the truth, that in his mind there is no God, If he has done all he can to seek out the truth, he must never give up. Jesus says "for you who have ears to hear, let you hear! Just like the Vineyard story that I love, Jesus gives as much money to the last of the men as the first. who had been in the vineyard all day. We can not judge. Jesus said “If a man tries to judge, let him take out the beam in his own eye first”. Again to the lady who has an “atheist” boy fried, help him read the Bible with you. Tell him it stands for Basic Information Before Leaving Earth.

 

[Bill1]

I would also like to say there is some real good advice here. I take it your boy friend has never been Baptized. If this is true, tell him to study Jesus to the letter. What Jesus says is so reviling of his mighty power. Jesus was baptized. He must also be baptized. If he is unwilling to learn why he must be baptized, you really should listen to some real good advice. For sure you Have to talk about children Before you get too deep.

 

[GodIsPerfection]

So my boyfriend is an atheist. He struggles with understanding how God could possibly exist, and even if He does, evidence seems to prove to him that He would be evil.
This belief is partially due to him having a pretty screwed up childhood. He believes that if God was real and a loving God, He would’ve answered his prayers and saved him from these terrible things. He also thinks certain points in the Bible prove God is evil, such as when He commands the Israelites to destroy entire cities (killing everyone, including innocent children), allowing slavery and rape, and other bad things.

1 John 4: 5-15

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

COMMENT: The problem for your boyfriend is that he is looking for God rationally, through worldly methods. He must develop a love of Jesus Christ by reading the Bible, or attending Church. He may develop a “critical mass” of religious understanding, so that he suddenly “finds Jesus” = “finding God.”

Matthew 22: 36 - 38

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

The various sacraments and sacramentals propel the soul toward the Almighty. Baptism is especially important. Suffering baptism as Jesus suffered baptism is an act of humility and love toward Jesus.

God is sovereign (an all-powerful King). He is also omniscient (all-knowing). We do not understand all of his commands in the Old Testament, regarding war, etc. But we have no right to question them. We must first of all love God as God loved us when he created us.

 

[OddBird]

Has your boyfriend read CS Lewis’s Mere Christianity ?

 

[EloyCraft]

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

I think the key word is the word ‘necessary’

 

[Techno2000]

OP what you are referring to is called the mystery of evil. Volumes have been written about it there’s no simple answer but I like this saying from Abba Anthony:
When the same Abba Anthony thought about the depth of the judgments of God, he asked, "Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age? Why are there those who are poor and those who are rich? Why do wicked men prosper and why are the just in need? He heard a voice answering him, “Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your advantage to know anything about them.”

In the end, when you die, and go into eternity, it will all make sense to you.

 

[annad347]

your relationship reminds me of that movie The Case for Christ based on the book by Lee Strobel… did you ever see it.

Only difference is I’m not sure she was a Catholic, but came to Christ, became a full devout Christian… her husband was an atheist who started doing research to prove to her that God didn’t exist.

Well he ended up also becoming a Christian. Not sure if that information helps you in any way, but your relationship reminded me of them… its based on a true story.

I’m sorry about all the bad things that happened in your boyfriend’s life… but God does many more good things, He did bring you into your boyfriends life, that’s a good thing.

… there’s even hope for me! I just question it…

me too but my questions are about the differences in the churches.

I believe there is always hope, especially for those of us who ask questions…helps keep the others on their toes.

 

[Dan_Defender]

In the end, when you die, and go into eternity, it will all make sense to you.

‘For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.’ - 1 Cor 14:12

 

[al2o3]

OP - the advice here regarding a faithfully catholic married life with a non-believer should be taken very seriously. Unequally yolked marriages with regard to the catholic faith is really really hard.

But let me give you a different perspective. God does not wish to lose a single soul created in His image and likeness. However, He is sovereign in the manner He draws each one to Himself. Here are a couple of scriptural examples of His mercy:

Due to the righteousness of one man Noah - God saved his whole family
Due to the righteousness of one woman Rahab - God saves her whole family
In Acts 16-31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Our job is to focus on Christ and stay close to Him. His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
With a prayer for your relationship

God Bless

 

[rose.gold]

Thank you for the insight! That’s helpful

 

[wkj_123]

Not necessarily. Someone can know something is good and true and reject it anyway. I might prefer my sin to God.

I can attest to this first hand. There have been seasons in my life where I knew God, but didn’t want to give up my sinful ways.

 

[stoplooklisten]

So, my question is: How could God send someone to hell if they don’t exactly have a reason to believe in Him?

Some responses:

1. The severity of hell would never go beyond the demands of strict justice. However wouldn’t you rather receive generous mercy than strict justice? The gospel is about the Kingdom of God and the message of mercy. Everyone has sinned and therefore everyone needs to repent.
2. Where did we come from? Where are we going? These are legitimate questions. No one has all the answers to these ultimate questions. Therefore, it is good and right to seek after ultimate answers to these ultimate questions. Therefore, it is good and right to seek after God.
3. Disbelief in God is highly correlated to belief in evolution and disbelief in supernatural Creation. This goes along with a disbelief in supernatural judgment. The evolutionary belief system generally includes belief in existence without a known cause and belief in spontaneous generation of life from non-life. The only historical records of life from non-life are the resurrection accounts from the Bible and resurrection accounts from the lives of the (Catholic) saints.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Therefore, it is good and right to seek after God.

True. And St Augustine said that for God to neglect those who do not seek Him IS justice.

belief in spontaneous generation of life from non-life.

A single cell seems to have such an irreducible complexity that it takes an enormous leap of faith to believe that all its components fell into place ‘by chance’ in any length of time.