Atheists put their faith in ethical behavior

  • Thread starter Thread starter JSmitty2005
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Hitetlen:
That is true, but it is a shallow observation. It does not explain “why” one should believe in an authority, and even more importantly, “how” does one become an authority in the first place?

A scientific authority is not self-proclaimed, and it can prove with objective experiments what it argues for. If the experiments prove it wrong, it will cease to be an authority. To believe in such an authority is just a convenient epistemological shortcut, a way to save time. If one wishes to affirm the validity of the autority’s claim, one can do so without applying to authority at all. That is why people “trust” scientific authorities.

The religious authority cannot prove what it claims with objective experiments. It must be accepted on blind faith. It is not a shortcut.
I would point out that science proves absolutely nothing, nor does it claim to. It only claims to provide likelihoods. Further, you are probably as well aware as I that scientific authorities often teach errors, either inadvertantly, when they have not yet discovered them, or deliberately, when they do not wish to change their views about a particular subject. If you’ll look through the history of science, you will quickly find that the greatest impediment to knowledge has not been the religious, but rather it has been scientists who refused for decades to accept what others had discovered.

In any case, by this reasoning, one ought not to believe that the Armada existed, because it cannot be proven by objective experiments.
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
Accepting contradictory views to be “right” or true would not be arrogance but downright stupidity. :rolleyes:
Not stupidity, just misguided.
 
Unexpected Dawn:
But I do find atheism arrogant, and unfortunately, all the atheists I’ve ever met have expressed that very sentiment you described–“I’m right and no one else.”
Not that I’m defending atheism by any means, but you’ll find this attitude popular among many Catholic posters on this forum as well.
 
It’s my belief that “atheists” fall into several categories.
  1. Atheists who are really agnostics; they believe that the question of God’s existance is ultimatly unknowable. They are functional atheists, but strictly speaking are not for they do not pretend to “know” a negative (that God doesn’t exist.)
  2. Genuine atheists who say “there is no God”, who find there to be a lack of any positive reason to believe there “is a God”, but additionally, believe there are good reasons to assume there in fact is no God. They’re taking a position here, and feel the balance of the evidence is in their favour. Faithless, but will generally be tolerant of others.
  3. Genuine atheists who do not simply believe there is enough reason to believe God exists (and that there is reason to believe He does not exist), but who believe it is irrational and superstitious to accept the existance of God. The so called “rabid atheist” or “village atheist”; the correspondant to the “religious fanatic.” Like the religious fanatic, obnoxious and self righteous.
However, even within those three “divisions” that I’ve noticed in my own experience, I’ve noticed variation. For example, I’ve noticed that for many “atheists” it’s not so much “deity” they reject, but simply the Judeo-Christian conception of such. Many are, IMHO de facto pantheists, even if they’d never call themselves such (largely because their philosophy/worldview does not involve any sort of “cultus”/formal worship of their pantheistic divinity). If you probe their views deeply enough, they do believe there are “absolutes”, and that there is a “ground of being” as it were - they simply believe it’s substantially the same as the manifest universe. This is not a new perspective, btw. - the Greco-Roman Stoic philosophers were basically the same, though they definately did have “religious sentiments” in the sense that they grafted the Olympian cult and it’s exoteric rituals upon their metaphysical outlook (though they entirely allegorized the mythos - ex. Zeus was the universe, all things were members of Zeus, etc.) When you hear atheistic scientists speak of the universe having “laws” and taking for granted the scientific assumption that the universe works in an ordered, predictable way, what you have (unavoidably) is a form of irreligious pantheism.

My biggest critique of atheism (and most especially the more rabid, insistant varieties) is that they ultimatly rely upon radical philosophical skepticism. The “common sense” of men from all cultures which points to God (however imperfectly) can only be undermined by such a radically skeptical approach, where one ultimatly is told that somehow your senses are fundamentally unreliable, and “normal reasoning” based upon this ought to be picked apart and put into doubt - and if there is “doubt”, then obviously they don’t feel obliged to acknowledge God in any form.

Apart from the problems of such radical skepticism in and of itself, my biggest “beef” is this - that they unfailingly never apply this standard consistantly in their lives. They seem to limit such radical fault finding to the subject of God, and those areas of morality which inconvienience them. Historically there were extreme cynics (in Hellenic civilization) that did attempt to pursue their own extreme forms of skepticism in a practical way; but besides the fact such people no longer exist, the simple truth is that such a lifestyle unfailingly illustrated just how unnatural this mentality in fact is. It is incapable of fostering civilization in any sense, and makes even the most basic and normal of human interactions impossible. Thus the modern atheistic/skeptical philosophers who have so often lauded “natural man” are really dealing in a profound contradiction, whether they realize it (or will admit it) or not.
 
Another thing - it is ultimatly only radical skepticism which provides the half way credible apologia for atheism. For the most typical arguments offered for atheism (ex. existance of evil) are not at all without a sound rebuttal. In the end, to press the question of “why does God allow evil” is ultimatly to get knee deep into theodicy, and hinges upon the subject of “why does the creation exist at all?” - and that is ultimatly a mystery which is at least as elusive to the atheist as it is to the theist. Evil itself though, is not a particularly persuasive avenue for atheists to pursue, which is why it’s generally only “amateurish” atheist apologists who bother with it.

But as mentioned previously, radical skepticism (used to undermine acceptance of the existance of God) is a problematic position. It’s my opinion, that those who use this semi-effective polemical weapon against theism are almost without fail, cheaters; they never apply this standard of scrutiny and fault finding evenly, but only to those areas of life (usually God, religion, and certain moral standards they find odious) which are not to their liking.
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
I would point out that science proves absolutely nothing, nor does it claim to. It only claims to provide likelihoods. Further, you are probably as well aware as I that scientific authorities often teach errors, either inadvertantly, when they have not yet discovered them, or deliberately, when they do not wish to change their views about a particular subject. If you’ll look through the history of science, you will quickly find that the greatest impediment to knowledge has not been the religious, but rather it has been scientists who refused for decades to accept what others had discovered.
Yes, everything you said is true. The reason that one trusts science in general, is precisely because it does not shy away from challenging the accepted ideas, and because it does not need an external “policing”. The new discoveries can be suppressed by the current “authority” (as you pointed it out and this shows that one should never trust “authority” without reserving doubt), but that is a short lived “authority” indeed, and it will be replaced quite quickly. In other words, science is a self-correcting phenomenon, despite the efforts of some who would like to make it rigid and dogmatic.
40.png
Lazerlike42:
In any case, by this reasoning, one ought not to believe that the Armada existed, because it cannot be proven by objective experiments.
It simply does not matter, since history is not a science in any sense. It is just a journal of what was supposed to happen, and it is usually written by the victors. What would history “teach” today if the Germans would have won the second World War? True, the ancient Latins wrote: “Historia est magistra vitae”, but that is just a common sense way to say: “we ought to learn from our past mistakes”. It is a good concept to follow, but nothing more.
 
JSmitty2005 said:
Atheists put their faith in ethical behavior

By MELISSA FLETCHER STOELTJE
San Antonio Express-News

“Atheists are not very well-thought-of in America,” says John Green, a senior fellow with the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. “It’s still acceptable to criticize atheists in a way that’s not polite. People may harbor negative views about Jews, Catholics, Muslims and evangelicals, but they know they’re not supposed to voice those views, so they don’t. But it’s still OK to say anything bad you want about atheists.”

dfw.com/mld/dfw/living/religion/14121950.htm

This is the part of the article that I found laughable. Does anyone that reads the newspaper or watches television really think that people that have negative views of religion DON’T voice their views?
 
40.png
mikew262:
Not stupidity, just misguided.
I disagree (surprise, surprise! 😉 ). I don’t see how you can say that it is not stupid to believe that 2 contradictory views can be held to be true simultaneously. Someone may be misguided to believe such garbage, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not stupid for questioning it.
 
People may harbor negative views about Jews, Catholics, Muslims and evangelicals, but they know they’re not supposed to voice those views, so they don’t. But it’s still OK to say anything bad you want about atheists.%between%
Peace be with you!

Hahaha! People don’t voice their negative views about Catholics? And Jews? Really??? Well, I’ve just learned something new!

In Christ,
Rand
 
Well technically atheists, especially atheist ethicists, scientists and philosophers, don’t put any kind of “faith” in anything because that would mean accepting something on unjustifiable grounds. Ethical behavior does have justifiable grounds from deductive argumentation and empirical study without religion. After all, Kant and all the rest have accepted the Socratic Euthyphro argument for ages.
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
Someone may be misguided to believe such garbage, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not stupid for NOT questioning it.
I forgot a ‘not.’
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top