Atheists Seek to Erect ‘No Gods’ Display at Arkansas Capitol After Ten Commandments Approved

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No, my words say what they mean and I do not want people to believe an extra bit about God I want them to believe the whole truth about God.
The “extra bit” I mentioned was the whole god. 😉
Glad we can agree.
You seem to beileve that God is not accessible, that He does not communicate Himself to us, this is decisively not the case, He does open Himself to those who would seek Him. You believe this is not the case because you have not experienced Him and this is for good reason.
Yes, it is for good reason… 😃
As I see it, when you decide to “seek Him”, you are already setting your mind up for self-deceit. Any tiny shred of thought that you may perceive not to be entirely yours, will then be attributed to that god which is being sought… and Lo and behold, god communicates with you! Congratz, your mind communicated with itself and you thought it was a god.
Psychology is a difficult subject to most people, because they cannot grasp many of the pitfalls in which we can land. And to make it even more difficult, the language of the religious is built in such a way as to prey on some of these pitfalls.

A tiny exercise:
Within the next month or so, try to spot how often you say or think the words “true” or “truth” in relation to god… Then, think how those words may be replaced by “real” or “reality”. And think why you used those words in particular.
Muslims use them as well, concerning their holy text and the sayings contained within.
I’m sure the same words are used on many other religions…

But the usage of “real” is something that’s somehow more demanding…
 
To the other point: how does it follow that if something is real it must therefore be measurable, especially when I infer you chose that word to distinguish it from experiencable? That is a pretty big jump.

I can give you plenty of examples of the real, which were not measurable for most of human history.
I can also give you the example of math, a real thing, which is not measurable, but only illustratable (Russel once said that all religion was a mistake inspired by math, but he granted the reality of the non-empirical).
I like to think of math as an abstraction of real quantities… as an abstract depiction of real objects… it then evolved to an abstraction of non-real objects, like multiple-dimensional spaces and stuff like that.
Like words are abstractions of real objects or quantities, which evolved to have abstractions of abstractions… and grammar provides rules on how to use these abstractions in a meaningful way.

In math, I can describe a perfect 3-dimensional sphere… in reality, I cannot build such a sphere… I am limited by a minimum spatial length - it’s short enough for that to be irrelevant to us, but this limit exists in reality. It doesn’t exist in math. In math, I can always add more precision.

Words too can be put together to generate non-existent realities, like the well known Harry Potter or Star Wars.

Reality is matter and energy, measurable things, even when in elusive configurations.
Unless you posit that reason is an illusion of course; in which case there is an internal contradiction in rationally arguing against reason, letting alone the question of, “An illusion when compared to what reality?” [And oh, the discussions of analogical being begin!]
Why would I say that reason is an illusion?
Even if one couldn’t point to these things, that would be a big jump. The best you could do in the absence of evidence (or convincing argument) one way or the other would be agnosticism. And I have never really been sympathetic to probabilistic assessments of deity’s existence, because, what does that mean? Clearly not anything like how probability has ever been measured elsewhere.
As I see it applied in this context, it’s seen as “intuitive probability”.

What’s your intuitive probability of the muslim claim that Mohamed did meet an angel in a cave and got instructions about how to behave and how to conduct his conquest of the Arabian peninsula? Just throw out a quantity, can even be qualitative: small, about 50/50, large?
But anyway, one can point to these, so, let’s skip it. To your point: is God part of reality? That is a very interesting question, more than you may know. Is reality part of reality? Is the quality of being real, part of reality? Is “being” part of reality? Is “Being?”
Ah… Morpheus: What is ‘real’? How do you define ‘real’?
The Universe sticks with mass, energy, fields, and that sort of stuff as real.
An entity which is responsible for generating this universe should leave some fingerprint…
This entity is also credited with a few interactions with the physical medium available on Earth, so a fingerprint is definitely supposed to exist… hence it should be measurable.
Also, if a god exists, then that god is real. Reality would then extend beyond the Universe… to something, I don’t know what.
Even without a god, one could extend reality beyond the Universe and I’d also be in the blind as to what that even means.
What I am getting at is that Bertrand Russel was closer with his thought on math early in his career than he was with his teapot later on. A more developed philosophy (such as that of Aquinas or Augustine) does not see God as something or someone existing as a thing, in the same sense that other things exist, existing over and above them.
yeah… how would Aquinas or Augustine know about that feature of god?
Not trying to convince you here really, because I don’t really have the time for the conversation (med school is a PAIN), and in fact I probably won’t check the forum after this 🤷 , largely because I think this is an ironically bad forum for this kind of convo, but throwing it out there as topics open for consideration and your investigation. 👍
Cheers, much appreciate it!
Best of luck with med school! My mum wanted me to become a doctor, but I thought there were too many things to memorize, so I took physics! 😛
 
I suppose that is not very far off from Catholic/Christian teachings. We believe we only exist because God continues to want us to exist. Same is true for the entire universe. We also believe there will come a time when God will say “this is the end” and the universe will cease to exist. In a sense, God is everywhere and every time so all of creation is encompassed by God. However, I’d like to offer a slight revision to your last question: the universe exists BECAUSE of God. That’s the Catholic/Christian belief. Have a Blessed Day!
Interesting…so God’s act of creation was simply a thought? So are the stars and galaxies merely visual representations of God’s mind? Essentially is it possible to consider that such might even be His neural network perhaps?
 
Interesting…so God’s act of creation was simply a thought? So are the stars and galaxies merely visual representations of God’s mind? Essentially is it possible to consider that such might even be His neural network perhaps?
Sort of like that sci-fi movie where they shrink down a submarine so they can be injected into a person’s brain???

I’m going to opine that since stars and galaxies are made of matter and God is not, they might be visual representations though not His actual neural network. Interesting visual concept though! 👍
 
How painfully millennial. I’ve had it with these latest unbelieving generations. They’re bringing the wrath of God on us all.
 
The “extra bit” I mentioned was the whole god. 😉
Glad we can agree.

Yes, it is for good reason… 😃
As I see it, when you decide to “seek Him”, you are already setting your mind up for self-deceit. Any tiny shred of thought that you may perceive not to be entirely yours, will then be attributed to that god which is being sought… and Lo and behold, god communicates with you! Congratz, your mind communicated with itself and you thought it was a god.
Psychology is a difficult subject to most people, because they cannot grasp many of the pitfalls in which we can land. And to make it even more difficult, the language of the religious is built in such a way as to prey on some of these pitfalls.

A tiny exercise:
Within the next month or so, try to spot how often you say or think the words “true” or “truth” in relation to god… Then, think how those words may be replaced by “real” or “reality”. And think why you used those words in particular.
Muslims use them as well, concerning their holy text and the sayings contained within.
I’m sure the same words are used on many other religions…

But the usage of “real” is something that’s somehow more demanding…
Wow you believe that 80% of the worlds population is delusional, that is a very interesting stance.

I think that you will be surprised at my answer to your truth/reality exercise.

I bow down on my knee and say “My Lord and my God” in His presence at least 7 to 8 times a day and on some days in excess of 20 times, like yesterday.

I also preach God as real and truth at least 3 times a week as well and on these boards almost every day trying to share with others the reality and truth about our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
 
Wow you believe that 80% of the worlds population is delusional, that is a very interesting stance.
I used self-deceived… don’t know where you got “deluded”, but ok… it works almost as well.
Also, from those 80%, most are indoctrinated as children, so they have no chance but to comply… indoctrination is one other psychological pitfall - ever noticed that it works just as well for any religion, or ideology?
I think that you will be surprised at my answer to your truth/reality exercise.

I bow down on my knee and say “My Lord and my God” in His presence at least 7 to 8 times a day and on some days in excess of 20 times, like yesterday.

I also preach God as real and truth at least 3 times a week as well and on these boards almost every day trying to share with others the reality and truth about our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
:eek:
Just run the experiment… I can wait… :cool:
 
I used self-deceived… don’t know where you got “deluded”, but ok… it works almost as well.
Also, from those 80%, most are indoctrinated as children, so they have no chance but to comply… indoctrination is one other psychological pitfall - ever noticed that it works just as well for any religion, or ideology?

:eek:
Just run the experiment… I can wait… :cool:
I have just told you that I live your experiment on a daily basis, every day and 2 to 3 times that on Sunday.

If you have done any research into the situation you will find that a significant number of people change their beliefs at some time in their lives. Note that children grow up and most of the time form their own opinions, just ask around the forum, there are those who are fallen away Catholics, there are those who grew up non believers who later converted among other different situations. It still turns out to be the same numbers in the end.

You may have heard of a famous nuclear physicist Werner Heisenberg? I know he is dead and I can not prove that he lived because all of the evidence could be either faked or corrupted, but it is said that he was a genius in physics and that he won a Nobel Prize.

He stated that “reality is designed in such a way that even the improbable is essentially possible.” Then he added, “The first swallow from the cup of the natural sciences makes atheists - but at the bottom of the cup God is waiting.”

He changed his mind.👍
 
Wow you believe that 80% of the worlds population is delusional, that is a very interesting stance.

I think that you will be surprised at my answer to your truth/reality exercise.

I bow down on my knee and say “My Lord and my God” in His presence at least 7 to 8 times a day and on some days in excess of 20 times, like yesterday.

I also preach God as real and truth at least 3 times a week as well and on these boards almost every day trying to share with others the reality and truth about our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
@DCNBILL,
God bless you for your evangelism and faith. Have patience with non-believers for I was once like them. It doesn’t take much to plant the seed of truth and that’s all God asks of us. Sometimes the seed sprouts on rocky ground, that is beyond our calling. I pray you continue your faith journey and pray for others like this person so they may come to know the beauty and peace that is within God. God Bless you again! 👍
 
@DCNBILL,
God bless you for your evangelism and faith. Have patience with non-believers for I was once like them. It doesn’t take much to plant the seed of truth and that’s all God asks of us. Sometimes the seed sprouts on rocky ground, that is beyond our calling. I pray you continue your faith journey and pray for others like this person so they may come to know the beauty and peace that is within God. God Bless you again! 👍
Amen and thanks!

May God bless you as well!
 
I have just told you that I live your experiment on a daily basis, every day and 2 to 3 times that on Sunday.
Sorry, I must have missed the part where you declared the results from such experiment… I still can’t see them… could you point me to them?
If you have done any research into the situation you will find that a significant number of people change their beliefs at some time in their lives.
“significant”? LOL, no!
Born in a muslim country: 99%+ remain muslim,
Raised by practicisng christians: 90%+ remain christian
Raised by jews: 99%+ remain jew (even if they call themselves secular jews)

(Putting all christian and muslims sects in one bag for each of these major religions as I concur that some people change denomination, but not the overall underlying religion).

Raised by non-believers: can become whatever their love interests are. 😛
Note that children grow up and most of the time form their own opinions, just ask around the forum, there are those who are fallen away Catholics, there are those who grew up non believers who later converted among other different situations. It still turns out to be the same numbers in the end.
I’ve spent quite some time on another forum, where I’ve heard the stories of those who leave the faith, those who need to remain closeted because their parents wouldn’t accept it, those who I and others must warn against posting on that forum, because they live in countries where atheists are sentenced to death…
In the end, it’s not the same numbers…

I’ve also talked to many people of my age and younger, from my country, a traditionally catholic country in southern Europe, Portugal - you may know it from Fátima - and most couldn’t care less for religion… the people who were parents in the 70’s- 80’s didn’t pay much attention to the religious upbringing of their kids, around here… this is the result, and I can’t say it’s a bad one… time will tell.
You may have heard of a famous nuclear physicist Werner Heisenberg? I know he is dead and I can not prove that he lived because all of the evidence could be either faked or corrupted, but it is said that he was a genius in physics and that he won a Nobel Prize.

He stated that “reality is designed in such a way that even the improbable is essentially possible.” Then he added, “The first swallow from the cup of the natural sciences makes atheists - but at the bottom of the cup God is waiting.”

He changed his mind.👍
You may have heard of a famous philosopher, Antony Flew… he too converted, from atheism to deism.

On the other hand, you may have heard of Stephen Hawking, who said recently:
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”
He added: “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”
He didn’t change his mind.
Many other physicists and scientists and philosophers didn’t change their minds… or rather did change them from some belief to none, as they grew in understanding and awe of the world around them.
Why should I take the example of the few who do change to become believers?

Einstein said the God does not play dice, a “clear indication of some belief in the existence of the deity”, huh?.. Or just a jest of his part, as a feeble attempt to deride quantum mechanics as they were developing and he failed to acknowledge that the world actually worked like described. Einstein is on record as claiming to be agnostic:
“an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being”.

Not only scientists, but I could even draw your attention to Bart Ehrman who started his studies of the New Testament as a strong believer and now claims to be an atheist… even as he continues working in that field, which is astonishing, to a degree.
Then you have Matt Dillahunty who was actually “Raised Southern Baptist, Dillahunty sought to become a minister. His religious studies, instead of bolstering his faith as he intended, led him to no longer believe in Christianity and, eventually, all religions.”

There are examples of people going one way and there are examples of people going the other way. I didn’t even mention all the people who convert to islam or any other religion, like Tom Cruise… -.-’
So what?
The fact that people change their minds proves nothing with regards to the actual existence of any deity… it proves that people change their minds.
The divorce rate should be enough for us to get that result! 😉
 
Sorry, I must have missed the part where you declared the results from such experiment… I still can’t see them… could you point me to them?

“significant”? LOL, no!
Born in a muslim country: 99%+ remain muslim,
Raised by practicisng christians: 90%+ remain christian
Raised by jews: 99%+ remain jew (even if they call themselves secular jews)

(Putting all christian and muslims sects in one bag for each of these major religions as I concur that some people change denomination, but not the overall underlying religion).

Raised by non-believers: can become whatever their love interests are. 😛

That’s why parents asking for Baptism in the Catholic Church are asked if they intend to raise their children in the Catholic faith. Still happens that children wander away from the Church but it’s the parents duty to educate and keep them in the faith.🙂

I’ve spent quite some time on another forum, where I’ve heard the stories of those who leave the faith, those who need to remain closeted because their parents wouldn’t accept it, those who I and others must warn against posting on that forum, because they live in countries where atheists are sentenced to death…
In the end, it’s not the same numbers…

I’m curious, what countries execute atheists? Are these middle eastern? I’d sincerely like to know as I’m not aware of them. 🤷

I’ve also talked to many people of my age and younger, from my country, a traditionally catholic country in southern Europe, Portugal - you may know it from Fátima - and most couldn’t care less for religion… the people who were parents in the 70’s- 80’s didn’t pay much attention to the religious upbringing of their kids, around here… this is the result, and I can’t say it’s a bad one… time will tell.

Ah the certainty of youth and conviction of the elderly! 👍

You may have heard of a famous philosopher, Antony Flew… he too converted, from atheism to deism.

On the other hand, you may have heard of Stephen Hawking, who said recently:
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”
He added: “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”
He didn’t change his mind.
Many other physicists and scientists and philosophers didn’t change their minds… or rather did change them from some belief to none, as they grew in understanding and awe of the world around them.
Why should I take the example of the few who do change to become believers?

Einstein said the God does not play dice, a “clear indication of some belief in the existence of the deity”, huh?.. Or just a jest of his part, as a feeble attempt to deride quantum mechanics as they were developing and he failed to acknowledge that the world actually worked like described. Einstein is on record as claiming to be agnostic:
“an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being”.

Not only scientists, but I could even draw your attention to Bart Ehrman who started his studies of the New Testament as a strong believer and now claims to be an atheist… even as he continues working in that field, which is astonishing, to a degree.
Then you have Matt Dillahunty who was actually “Raised Southern Baptist, Dillahunty sought to become a minister. His religious studies, instead of bolstering his faith as he intended, led him to no longer believe in Christianity and, eventually, all religions.”

There are examples of people going one way and there are examples of people going the other way. I didn’t even mention all the people who convert to islam or any other religion, like Tom Cruise… -.-’
So what?
The fact that people change their minds proves nothing with regards to the actual existence of any deity… it proves that people change their minds.
The divorce rate should be enough for us to get that result! 😉
 
808, I had a tough time reading your comments in that quote… I may have missed one or two.
That’s why parents asking for Baptism in the Catholic Church are asked if they intend to raise their children in the Catholic faith. Still happens that children wander away from the Church but it’s the parents duty to educate and keep them in the faith.
Yep, and that’s called indoctrination.
Seen by many (non-believers) as brainwashing children into belief. Not a 100% perfect endeavor, but pretty close.
And it works for christianity as well as it works for just about any other form of belief.
The muslims even claim that all people are born muslim, but then “indoctrination” in other religions changes the original belief of the child. 🤷
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pocaracas:
I’ve spent quite some time on another forum, where I’ve heard the stories of those who leave the faith, those who need to remain closeted because their parents wouldn’t accept it, those who I and others must warn against posting on that forum, because they live in countries where atheists are sentenced to death…
In the end, it’s not the same numbers…
I’m curious, what countries execute atheists? Are these middle eastern? I’d sincerely like to know as I’m not aware of them.
Iran and Saudi Arabia are two that I’m aware of.
Afghanistan, maybe…

Oh, nothing a quick google search can’t fix: reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210
“Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.”

I know where I’m never going on vacation! 😦

Mostly middle-eastern, some are more around India and I spot four African countries, as well.
40.png
pocaracas:
I’ve also talked to many people of my age and younger, from my country, a traditionally catholic country in southern Europe, Portugal - you may know it from Fátima - and most couldn’t care less for religion… the people who were parents in the 70’s- 80’s didn’t pay much attention to the religious upbringing of their kids, around here… this is the result, and I can’t say it’s a bad one… time will tell.
Ah the certainty of youth and conviction of the elderly!
If my 60+ yo parents and some of their friends are anything relevant, then some “elderly” think like these young ones I mentioned.
My grandmother and in-laws, on the other hand, are devout to the bone - praying at every meal and stuff like that.
 
Sort of like that sci-fi movie where they shrink down a submarine so they can be injected into a person’s brain???

I’m going to opine that since stars and galaxies are made of matter and God is not, they might be visual representations though not His actual neural network. Interesting visual concept though! 👍
How might matter be contained within an immaterial being?
 
808, I had a tough time reading your comments in that quote… I may have missed one or two.

Yep, and that’s called indoctrination.
Seen by many (non-believers) as brainwashing children into belief. Not a 100% perfect endeavor, but pretty close.
And it works for christianity as well as it works for just about any other form of belief.
The muslims even claim that all people are born muslim, but then “indoctrination” in other religions changes the original belief of the child. 🤷

*I should have differentiated my response to you. Yes, indoctrination is one way of describing it. We’re all indoctrinated to some degree when we are born and as we grow up. It’s what defines us and a reason some immigrants have a difficult transition into the American culture. Subsequent generations generally have an easier time as long as the family desires to assimilate and integrate into our culture.

“Indoctrination”, as you define it, is not always a bad thing. Even atheists indoctrinate new comers into their belief system.

I will agree with my Muslim brothers and sisters regarding we are all born knowing God. They grew up in Islam and I grew up as a Catholic. 👍*

Iran and Saudi Arabia are two that I’m aware of.
Afghanistan, maybe…

Oh, nothing a quick google search can’t fix: reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210
“Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.”

…hmmm…all Muslim countries…

I know where I’m never going on vacation! 😦

I’m with you there!!! 🙂 I’m even hesitant to go to Jerusalem!

Mostly middle-eastern, some are more around India and I spot four African countries, as well.

If my 60+ yo parents and some of their friends are anything relevant, then some “elderly” think like these young ones I mentioned.
My grandmother and in-laws, on the other hand, are devout to the bone - praying at every meal and stuff like that.
Praying before every meal is a way of giving thanks to God Who provides us with everything we have. God Bless your grandmother and in-laws for remembering this!
 
Material wouldn’t be in an immaterial being like God. He just creates material.
Realizing that we have established:
  1. God is immaterial
  2. An immaterial being may create material matter by thought
  3. Material elements are thereby to be considered within said being’s mental focus
  4. How then might physical material remain within God’s mental focus?
Is it possible that given that the immaterial might exist within the thoughts of material man, it should be equally plausible that material reality might be able to exist within the thoughts of an immaterial being?
 
Realizing that we have established:
  1. God is immaterial
  2. An immaterial being may create material matter by thought
  3. Material elements are thereby to be considered within said being’s mental focus
  4. How then might physical material remain within God’s mental focus?
Is it possible that given that the immaterial might exist within the thoughts of material man, it should be equally plausible that material reality might be able to exist within the thoughts of an immaterial being?
Again, that is a mystery that has yet to be revealed by God. Perhaps He’ll reveal it to us one day. I like to remind myself, when it comes to God, He can do anything, even things we haven’t thought of yet! God Bless you. 👍
 
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