atheists : this is the best way to determine if god exists or not , a new way , see if it is right for yourselves dear friends ...

  • Thread starter Thread starter John_Russell_Jr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

John_Russell_Jr

Guest
… my dearest friends ,

… it seems a lot of atheists come here and seem all too oft to really want to know if god exists , so i thought of a new way for them to test the water that can work , trying to believe in god on an intellectual basis is usually inadequate and they and oft believers have trouble with this more or less …

… but there is a better way to find the answer , and i believe those relying on the purely intellectual proofs don’t know it , i’m proposing a way of discerning if god is real or not based on experience , stick with me and let me explain …

… for instance , let’s say the man is anyone and the girl is god in this story , but it can be vice versa , it works best like this to explain though , a man meets a girl , he is interested and wants to know more about her , he talks to the girl and over time gets to know her , as time rolls on he builds a relationship with the girl , but in the relationship it is not all roses , sometimes bad things happen , love ones become sick and die , friends died in an earthquake , the man got sick , he experienced sadness and suffering and even felt abandoned by the girl and lonely at times when he was arguing with her , there were thorns amongst the roses in the relationship , it was not all heaven on earth …

… but the man through thick and thin stuck by the girl , and through the passage of time began to love her , but the man wanted to know if the girl loved him too , so he asked her if she did , and she said yes , i’ve always loved you , did you not know that ??? , the man asked her to prove it as he was not sure , the man pointed out all the bad things that happened in the relationship and enquired why ??? , she explained , when your loved ones were sick and died i was always there by your side to comfort , console and support you , i never left your side through thick and thin , when your friends died in the eathquake i was there again , never abandoining you for an instant , when you were sad or suffering i never ceased trying to relieve your burdens and give you joy , cheer and hope , the only reason you were lonely is because you pushed me away but the instant you asked me to come back i did , you see through thick and thin i have been there for you no matter what or how bad things got , all the while i have shown you i love you , i did not tell you much but by my deeds i have been the only person all this time that truly loved you and showed it and proved it to you , do you believe i love you now the girl said ??? …

… the man reflected and saw it was all true , he believed in the girl and knew she loved him , the girl had not only said it she had proven her love for him , the man then proposed to the girl , and she having reflected decided to say yes , he is a good , kind and loving man and i love him , they were married …

… during marriage she like all good wives began to chip away the rough edges from the man , but all the while out of love and she never stopped loving him , over time the man was upset , why is nothing ever good enough for you said the man , the wife said i am just doing what any good wife does and helping you become the best man you can be , she explained it all to him and the man reflected and could see how much he had improved , and he loved his wife still more even though it was not all roses …

… she was the love of his life and without her he now knew life itself would not be worth living , the couple lived to an old age and never ceased to love and help each other , the man now very elderly and dying needed his wife like never before , and she as usual never let him down , she was his nurse and constant loving companion the whole time , the one thing the man was most grateful for in his last hours was the wonderful wife he had found and the endless love and good times they had , the thorns disappeared as he contemplated the roses , and he was eternally grateful …

… i’m sure you see what i’m saying , you need to experience god to truly know god , god is divine love and to know god you must know divine love , the example uses human love but divine love transcends human love , human love gives us a glimpse of divine love , gods loving fatherly providene and help in our life through thick and thin is his proof of his love for us , and god is that love he has for us , god is love , but more so divine love …

… and no matter if it be roses or thorns we see or experience in life gods divine love is always there , god is not responsible for the thorns but he carries us if there are too many to cope with , the marriage is symbolic of spiritual or mystical marriage which all in grace achieve partially , and when all the rough edges are knocked off us we achieve it fully – saints …

… it doesn’t explain all but tries to put the emphasis on learnng about , believing in and loving and trusting god through experience of god , experience divine love and you experience god , words are cheap and hollow , actions speak volumes and in the end they are all that counts , try to discover god this way through experience and i believe this is the correct way god wants man to get to know him and believe in him and trust and love him , this is how god wants to have a relationship with each man , trying to understand and know and believe in god through intellectual knowledge is rather flimsy , develop a relartionship with god like this and through personal experience you come to know him , try it dear friends …

… may god bless and love you all 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
tonyrey said:
You prefer not to know? 😉
Click to expand...
Been there, done that. I spent slightly over a year going to Mass regularly; praying the rosary and novenas; regular confession; reading about the lives of the saints; even went on the World Youth Day just over a month ago - ultimately to the conclusion that there is no God.

So I’m not searching for what does not exist, and I speculate that’s the same for a lot of other atheists that roam these boards.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Not me. Have a great day 🙂
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity: why not you? why, if not you, did you bother to reply? why did you exit so fast?

You may not answer, give a short answer, insult me, everything is OK for me, OK?

It was just out of curiosity! The so-called atheists raise my curiosity, that’s all!
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Been there, done that. I spent slightly over a year going to Mass regularly; praying the rosary and novenas; regular confession; reading about the lives of the saints; even went on the World Youth Day just over a month ago - ultimately to the conclusion that there is no God.

So I’m not searching for what does not exist, and I speculate that’s the same for a lot of other atheists that roam these boards.
Click to expand...
To identify God with the externals of religion is bound to lead to scepticism. What counts is what you really want out of life…
 
I appreciate your good intentions, but according to your example the man is 100% sure that the girl (God) exists, he saw her, talked with her, touched her, heard her voice, there is no doubt that other humans exist with us, while ‘Gods’ are different and maybe imaginary, an atheist doesn’t ask for a God to prove his love, he or she doesn’t believe in gods or religions for different reasons.

Prove first that a creator exists, after that try to figure out the qualities and formation of this creator and here comes the millions of thoughts, beliefs and religions about what a god is. Then I will assure to you, if this god exists and he’s with no doubts good, I’ll be the first to love him or her because we can’t follow what we think is imaginary.
 
Flyingg said:
I appreciate your good intentions, but according to your example the man is 100% sure that the girl (God) exists, he saw her, talked with her, touched her, heard her voice, there is no doubt that other humans exist with us, while ‘Gods’ are different and maybe imaginary, an atheist doesn’t ask for a God to prove his love, he or she doesn’t believe in gods or religions for different reasons.

Prove first that a creator exists, after that try to figure out the qualities and formation of this creator and here comes the millions of thoughts, beliefs and religions about what a god is. Then I will assure to you, if this god exists and he’s with no doubts good, I’ll be the first to love him or her because we can’t follow what we think is imaginary.
Click to expand...
… my dear friend ,

… you miss the point of the parable of types if you like : to understand it remove the woman and replace her with divine love you cannot see at all , and this can be a general guide for a faith journey into god , i use human love as it is something all know , that is all , it is up to you if you want god to prove his existence to you or not , but god is divine love and if you really want to know one way or the other for sure you cannot see divine love ,. you must experience it , i’ve shown a rough guide for any interested …

… i don’t need to prove god exists , it’s beyond question , the mere fact anything at all exists is absolute proof god exists , and i can take the human mind as far as is possible with proofs of god from logical thought – no probs , but this is better , i may do more on the other later too , the problem is fallen mans mind is so malfunctional he has trouble solving even a single problem now …

… originally he had the preternatural gift of perfect faith too , man even with his imperfect faith now needs a booster shot of faith to believe in god , this is why those believers are certain and no doubts god is if you ever wondered dear friend , the only way man can believe anything bar one thing about himself is on the basis of faith , if i’m wrong tell me just one thing ( apart from yourself that you can partially prove exists ) that you can absolutely prove exists without the need for faith , serious , can you show me one thing as said …

… as to worrying about an imaginary god i can tell you every man here lives in a delusional fantasy world in his imagination and is in various states of dream , even when conscious , and not just sleep dreaming and day dreaming , man is way out of touch with reality , and we see it all over the world – a giant massive horrible chaotic mess and none seem to know how to fix it because not one person can solve a single problem correctly , pefectly and permanently – and so the problems are piling up at light speed and none are getting solved , it’s nevber been so bad and we see it …

… man is insane and has degrees of mental illness , i mean this nice as this is all a part of fallen humanity and the cause of most of the trouble in our world , i’m trying to solve problems here , note this please … you – like everyone it seems are making the mistake that you don’t know there are endless multiple infinite systems of laws and rules in your head , and you expect all else and anything and everything to comply with them , if it obeys them you are pleased and reward it , if it disobeys you are displeased and punish it , this is true and these endless ever evolving and changing laws and rules in heads are pure insanity by the way …

… you say prove god exists ??? , but you refuse the proofs god offers to all and indeed billions of people alive attest to , and you won’t even try these proofs , you are insisting god and others obey you and comply with your laws and rules and if they do you’ll reward them and believe in god etc , but you are not supposed to set the rules you are suppose to just participate in the manner that works and gets the job done , if you play tennis you can’t change the scoring system or decide to use a squash ball etc etc , you play tennis by the rules and norms of tennis or it just does not work , if you want to know god he is living and eternal infinite divine love and you get to know him by experiencing him , those are his tennis rules , stop trying to use a squash ball and racket to play tennis with god dear friend , it just doesn’y work …

… there is no uncharitableness or anything bad in what i’ve said here , don’t get me wrong , i’m just stating truth as i understand it – especially when i talk about the problems of a fallen human nature …

… think hard about it dear friend , try to have a good game of tennis with god by the normal rules of tennis , and enjoy the game …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Been there, done that. I spent slightly over a year going to Mass regularly; praying the rosary and novenas; regular confession; reading about the lives of the saints; even went on the World Youth Day just over a month ago - ultimately to the conclusion that there is no God.

So I’m not searching for what does not exist, and I speculate that’s the same for a lot of other atheists that roam these boards.
Click to expand...
No offense Bohm, but there’s a reason you’re still here. You don’t seem to be the selfish-pompous type. You haven’t acted like most atheists do by going around for your pride. You’re here cause you want to be here. I think you want it to be true. If God and Catholicism were as false as you claim to believe you would have let go of it all. You’d stop wasting your short existence on this site and move on. You’d find something else to devote your life to and move on. But I think you’re here because you want to believe.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Not me. Have a great day 🙂
Click to expand...
… dearest bohm ,

… i hear you , i think your on caf hpoing for proof god exists , good , nothing wrong with that , there are always problems caused by man that create difficulties believing in , knowing , loving and serving god , the problems lie in man not god , you must have tried but made some mistakes , if you want your welcome to chat to me here or pm me and i’ll help you understand where the whole thing went wrong for you , i can do this , i’m very knowledgeable about the spiritual life among other things and can and will help …

… you probably went about things a bit wrong and did not do the essentials to increase your faith , you need a booster shot of faith with all this from god , perhaps gods answer is to get you on here , he never gives up on you , you may not have had a correct or even any supernatural outlook so did not see things through the eyes of faith ??? , so , maybe god was in overdrive in your life , providence and all but you could not see or know it , maybe you like all men need a little help and fixing , i’ll help if you want dear friend , just ask …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
“1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.” - Vatican I, Canons, 2. 1.

The RCC confidently asserts that God’s existence can be known with certainty by human reason alone. But, where are the arguments vatican 1 refers to?

Personally I pray but nothing has ever changed. There is an argument for atheism because many people do turn to God in earnest and walk away empty handed. It’s called the argument from Divine Hiddenness. It goes like this:

(1) If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.
(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.
(3) Reasonable nonbelief occurs.
(4) Therefore, no perfectly loving God exists. (from 2 and 3)
(5) Therefore, there is no God. (from 1 and 4)

I’m not trying to side-track this thread or even defend the above argument. I simply want to show that people have approached God in prayer and because they’ve been left empty handed, things like the above argument got produced.
 
… an additional concept that may be useful dear friends : about the light …

… if you ever wanted a revelation from god , you’ve had heaps dearest friends , but are blind so you can’t see the light , or when you see the light you try to bend it so it conforms to your will , and if it won’t bend you break the light , you destroy the light , and remain in darkness dear friends , the light is right here but you reject it and choose to stay in the darkness , open up your eyes and – see , accept and embrace the light unconditionally and then you will have it , otherwise you will remain in darkness dear friends , it is your choice : light or darkness ??? …

… further i say :, just keep searching for the light and you will find it , it shines on you continually but you have very powerful sunglasses on maybe , take them off and see the light clearly dear friends , it is and has always been there and on you , you are the problem that blocks the light , true dear friends , and i say it as charity to help you dearest friends , i think many of you really want it now and i’m just trying tio help , think on it …

… don’t agree , then more : perhaps i should say : keep searching for the light switch , once you flick the switch you’ll see the light , or again : the light is already there shining brightly and all around and on you , the problem is your blind and can’t see it , so like the blind man in jesus’ parable pray " lord , that i may see " , or : just recognise the light you now see for it fills our whole world , but you take it for granted so much you don’t appreciate it , however you see it you just have to ask for help to see the light with a sincere humble heart and persevere and when god sees your really ready he’ll help you see the light , just open your eyes in any case – the whole world is full of this light dearest friends …

… may god bless and love you all 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Perplexity said:
“1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.” - Vatican I, Canons, 2. 1.

The RCC confidently asserts that God’s existence can be known with certainty by human reason alone. But, where are the arguments vatican 1 refers to?

Personally I pray but nothing has ever changed. There is an argument for atheism because many people do turn to God in earnest and walk away empty handed. It’s called the argument from Divine Hiddenness. It goes like this:

(1) If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.
(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.
(3) Reasonable nonbelief occurs.
(4) Therefore, no perfectly loving God exists. (from 2 and 3)
(5) Therefore, there is no God. (from 1 and 4)

I’m not trying to side-track this forum or even defend the above argument. I simply want to show that people have approached God in prayer and because they’ve been left empty handed, things like the above argument got produced.
Click to expand...
… my dearest friend ,

… god is and can be known by reason alone , it depends on the individuals capacity to solve problems , but the fallen mind is rather a mess unfortunately , it is true that the mere fact anything exists is absolute proof god exists , but few seem to accept this , this is due to a very defective fallen mind that barely functions , that is the problem unfortunately …

… god can be known by reason alone but i see such a unity between faith and reason that one cannot work without the other at all , not properly , the normal modus operandi for all human belief is faith and this is not contrary to reason but so complimentary it is a sort of perfect union …

… reasonable non - belief does not exist , this world of ours is a delusion and outside reality while god fixes this mess , as evil incl non - belief cannot exist , so god threw us out of the garden of eden which symbolises reality so evil was outside reality and does not really exist at all , not in reality , this nightmare world and life is very real to us , but it is not really reality at all , so god does exist is the conclusion when understood , this is a huge subject this theory of mine and this is the tiniest snippet of it , so bear this in mind please …

… have you tried praying for faith with a humble sincere open heart and mind willing to accept gods will no matter what it is to the total exclusion of your own will , and have you tried making a list of say 50 little tiny things even wiith some minute details you want and kept praying for them and waited to see if god answered your prayers or not , and prayed for a supernatural outlook so you can recognise gods work , providence , and see and recognise when those prayers are answered ??? , don’t pray for a few big things is a common problem , this approacjh works better , and be patient as god oft tests us to see how serious we are , he knows all mans thoughts and what is in his heart , there is a lot more to this but i hope this helps dear friend …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Perplexity said:
“1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.” - Vatican I, Canons, 2. 1.

The RCC confidently asserts that God’s existence can be known with certainty by human reason alone. But, where are the arguments vatican 1 refers to?
Click to expand...
  1. The argument from Design
  2. The argument from Causality
  3. The argument from Morality
  4. The argument from Development
  5. The argument from Love
Personally I pray but nothing has ever changed. There is an argument for atheism because many people do turn to God in earnest and walk away empty handed.
Click to expand...
God is not a slot machine! If you pray merely to satisfy your curiosity you are bound to be frustrated!
It’s called the argument from Divine Hiddenness. It goes like this:
Click to expand...
(1) If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.
(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.
(3) Reasonable nonbelief occurs.
(4) Therefore, no perfectly loving God exists. (from 2 and 3)
(5) Therefore, there is no God. (from 1 and 4)
Click to expand...
(2) is false because it overlooks the fact that we exist in order to choose what to believe and how to live.
 
I’ve found that proposed arguments for God’s existence fail because their premises are false. It’s not that I don’t or can’t understand the arguments. So, I very much doubt I’m an atheist because I’m too unintelligent or uneducated to be a theist 😛 but, yes. I’ve prayed for…a very long time 🙂 What surprises me isn’t that God hasn’t answered yet…but rather…that I should have to pray at all.
 
… my dearest friends ,

… i think i’ll post some of my own intellectual work proving god exists , some of it i borrowed though you will see , i accept that faith and reason are involved in the belief processes of all human bellief and acknowledge , accept and will provide what i can to try and make a more fully rounded thread , but i hope people will not start to focus fully on intellectual arguments at the expense of the true proof all believers have always testified to as the greatest proof of gods existence – their personal experience of god …

… may god bless and love you all 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
  1. The argument from Design
  2. The argument from Causality
  3. The argument from Morality
  4. The argument from Development
  5. The argument from Love
Click to expand...
Should we carry this convo on elsewhere? i doubt this is what the OP was headed for.

But, a quick point…I highly doubt Vatican 1 had in mind anything other than Thomas’ five ways. I have no idea which arguments of the kinds you mentioned above you have in mind. From design there is the alleged signature in the cell, or Collins’ bayesian approach, or WLC’s disjunctive argument etc. From causality there are any number of the kalam’s, leibnizian’s, thomistic’s etc. From morality…don’t even get me started on how many axiological arguments there are lol. etc. Remember I was speaking about Vatican 1
 
Perplexity said:
I’ve found that proposed arguments for God’s existence fail because their premises are false. It’s not that I don’t or can’t understand the arguments. So, I very much doubt I’m an atheist because I’m too unintelligent or uneducated to be a theist 😛 but, yes. I’ve prayed for…a very long time 🙂 What surprises me isn’t that God hasn’t answered yet…but rather…that I should have to pray at all.
Click to expand...
… my dearest friend ,

… god doesn’t need or want our prayers , people have it wrong , god wants our love and that is all he wants from us , true , when we pray to god we are loving god , if we do it right that is , prayer = love , and our prayers are the most sweet and sublime gifts and presents we can give god , everything that is good or love is prayer by the way , only evil or sin cannot be and is not prayer , and god gives us gifts and presents when he answers our prayers , it’s how god deals with us – he knows we can only function as human beings …

… the relationship with god is meant o be a mutual selfless exchange and dialogue of divine love , try to just love god as this is the part he really wants , and god gives us everything good we have no matter what so he does not even wait for us to aak the essentials of life and he even blesses many with luxuriies , be grateful for everything , and don’t blame god for evils in our world , man caused this and god has fixed it all instantly , it drags on to us for sure – but this is an illusion …

… when we pray there is oft conflicts in prayer we don’t know , another person may pray you are saved , but you pray for money as an example , god knows all ad nhas to choose which prayer to answer , if he saves you fine , but he may see if you get real rich it will ruin you , in a world where perhaps billions of prayers take place each day there are endless conflicts , and whose to say god did not answer your prayers ??? , he often gives us what we really need and not what we ask , because we do not always know what is best for us , also god reads our hearts and gives us what we truly want in our heart – and the heart cannot lie and we rarely know what we really want in our hearts , and god may answer some prayers in years time , even 50 or more years time , there is no time limit on prayer …

… one has to trust god , that is the answer , and that is the big problem for non - believwers i think , they want proof and not to rely on trust and faith , but if you don’t play the game right by gods rules you lose , so take a chance , and another , and again another chance , and never give up , you have nothing to lose and all to gain , i’m not saying you lack intelligence but mans fallen mind is not that crash hot , i don’t mean to offend , it’s a bit like a doctors diagnosis – take no offence dear friend …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
… but there is a better way to find the answer , and i believe those relying on the purely intellectual proofs don’t know it , i’m proposing a way of discerning if god is real or not based on experience , stick with me and let me explain …
Click to expand...
It’s a pretty story but you seemed to have skipped over the part about the wife torturing the husband for all eternity if he should happen to upset her.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top