Atheists: What is the mean of life?

[wcknight]

YinYangMom:

To be perfectly honest, who cares?
Or WHY should one care?

HOW life began XXXX number of years ago does not have an affect on what I do with my life from the time I entered the already existing cycle of life until I leave it…

As Catholic as I am, the ‘meaning of life’ has never been an issue for me. It’s a nice philosophical question and all, but goodness, who has time to reflect on something so ‘out there’ when I’ve got bills to pay, people to care for and answer to.

My Catholicism gives me purpose, but even without it, I’d find purpose just because it’s the way society works. One’s forced to jump into the game and go with the flow and there really isn’t much time to think about it.

How often have I just wanted to shout “STOP!” so I can jump off this cycle long enough to catch my breathe, but that is impossible. That’s what ‘vacation’ is for…that’s what spiritual retreats are for. Some of us go to religious ones, others go to physical spas and such.

IF one can answer what caused the beginning or pre beginning of universe, one can answer the question of whether God exists.

To us it it really does not matter because we already accept God as a reality. To some one who claims God doesn’t exists or can not be proved, they have to come up with an explanation of how the universe could have gotten started on its own.

To someone who only believes in science and only in a physical reality, how or what started the Big Bang is quite relevant.

Science by itself can not explain away the Big Bang unless it also answers what caused it

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*I was not under the impression that athiests had to have proof of anything…
*
Not at all my impression. They always demand proof of God. Yet when you ask them to prove their conviction that there is no God, they run for the hills.

Then it gets curious … and more curious … and most curious when they start fumbling at the attempt to prove there is no God.

 

[reen12]

Is faith held to be a gift of God’s grace?

Or can I achieve faith in a Creator by my own thought processes?

Which is it?

reen12

 

[AnAtheist]

Seeks God:

Then why do they not accept God as “just is”…? It seems to me if they didn’t need anything proven to them the God would just be, right?

SG

We don’t accept gods. You do not accept any god mankind has come up with, I just accept one god less.

@Gilberth Keith: You cannot disprove the existence of Thor. Yet you don’t believe in Him. Why? Can’t you just accept Him?

When I look at all the god-images flowing around, most of them are inconsistent with logic and reality, I dare say outright impossible. Some of them are appealing, some are not. Very few are acceptable (from my point of view), but those who are, are void of attributes (like the Deists’ god) so there is nothing to think about nor to worship to.

 

[AnAtheist]

reen12:

Is faith held to be a gift of God’s grace?

Or can I achieve faith in a Creator by my own thought processes?

Which is it?

reen12

Interesting question. If the first is the case, our fate is pretty much predetermined, I’d say.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

*@Gilberth Keith: You cannot disprove the existence of Thor. Yet you don’t believe in Him. Why? Can’t you just accept Him?
*
***Your analogy is far from valid. ***

The reason I don’t believe in Thor is that this is not a god worthy of our belief. The world pretty much agrees … since Thor worship is virtually defunct.

***Christ is still very much alive and very much on the move in our world despite the atheist’s conviction that all religion is child’s play on an intellectual level. ***

***The truth is that atheism itself is the immature point of view since it cuts off all possibility of the existence of the Being it is dedicated to deny and demolish. ***

By the way, my experience with most atheists is that they have adopted atheism in their teenage years … another proof that atheism is rooted in juvenile thinking.

*The opposite is true for the religious point of view. It tends to thrive and grow more fully to its natural fulfillment in the later years of maturity … whereas atheism among the aged is still pretty much what it was when they were thirteen … full of denial and not much else.

 

[YinYangMom]

Seeks God:

Then why do they not accept God as “just is”…? It seems to me if they didn’t need anything proven to them the God would just be, right?

SG

Because it just doesn’t matter to them in the short or long run.
What matters is that they respect everything that is around them while they are here on earth.

Athiests don’t seek God.
But those who believe in God seek out athiests and agnostics as part of their call to evangelization.
For us it matters that we share the Good News.
But for those we are trying to reach, it does not matter.
It is by the grace of the Holy Spirit alone that an athiest or agnostic is able to ‘see the light’.
We cannot convert a person’s heart with science, debates or arguments.
We can only share what we know to be the truth and pray the Holy Spirit enables the recipient to recognize it as such.

 

[YinYangMom]

wcknight:

To some one who claims God doesn’t exists or can not be proved, they have to come up with an explanation of how the universe could have gotten started on its own.

No. They don’t.
And that’s where you get tripped up.

I’m not so sure an athiest claims God doesn’t exist, as much as they resist the notion of God existing when the notion is put forward to them.

When someone comes up to you and tries to tell you A = C when you know A = A well then, that person is just wrong.

He doesn’t have to ‘prove’ A=C and you don’t have to ‘prove’ A=A. You can agree to disagree and then move on.

Because an athiest rejects your truth you challenge him to defend his rejection. But why?

Your own belief in God is a gift from the Holy Spirit.
When Jesus returned from the dead and walked beside his apostles - they did not recognize Him until He allowed them to at the appropriate moment.

You cannot prove God’s existence because it has been ‘revealed’ to you through the Holy Spirit alone.

So no matter what documentation you present to athiests or agnostics, reason won’t make the difference…only the Holy Spirit does that.

If during an exchange of ideas with an athiest you find the person ‘coming around’, know for certain that it wasn’t because of what you said or did…it was because the Holy Spirit responded to your efforts to evangelize and lifted the blinders from that person.

 

[YinYangMom]

but for an atheist or agnostic…can’t you see how it looks like man-defined?

Yes, I can see the atheist’s point of view. But the atheist can never prove that God does not exist, and so from his own point of view … which is to agree only with that which is provable … he cannot even prove his own position.

Why then is he an atheist?

Ok, then perhaps I’m wrong about what an athiest is…

do they really agree only with that which is provable?

The ones I’ve known don’t take that position completely…so maybe they aren’t really athiests.

 

[wcknight]

The reason why we accept the reality of Christ and reject the fantasy of Thor is because there is no evidence that Thor ever existed, while there is ample indication that Christ is real and a major presence both in our lives and in the lives of millions of folks.

The reason that the Judeo Christian God is accepted is the documentation that the Bible reveals about God’s interaction with the Hebrews, AND the reason that Christianity continues is the constant interaction of God with the saints throughout the centuries, As mystics such as Padre Pio as recently as 40 years ago perform a plethora of miraculous healings, the proof of the Christian God’s existence is confirmed over and over again.

The fact that Thor has no revelations or folks witnessing to his existence leaves him as a fantasy figure. Should Thor appear to the masses or some follower perform supernatural miracles associated with his worship, that might elicit some response of credibility.

But nothing for many centuries has been attributed to him. While folks in every century and probably in every decade since the first century has testified to the intervention of Christ with His followers. Every proclaimed saint has a 100% verifiable miracle associated with their intervention (prior to 20 years ago, 5 such miracles were the requiste for sainthood).

So while literally thousands of confirmed miracles are associated with Jesus and His followers, not one is attributed to Thor. I’d say it’s quite obvious why we believe in Jesus and why we totally ignore Thor (BTW he was one of my favorite Marvel comic characters).

wc

 

[wcknight]

YinYangMom:

No. They don’t.
And that’s where you get tripped up.

I’m not so sure an athiest claims God doesn’t exist, as much as they resist the notion of God existing when the notion is put forward to them.

When someone comes up to you and tries to tell you A = C when you know A = A well then, that person is just wrong.

He doesn’t have to ‘prove’ A=C and you don’t have to ‘prove’ A=A. You can agree to disagree and then move on.

Because an athiest rejects your truth you challenge him to defend his rejection. But why?

Your own belief in God is a gift from the Holy Spirit.
When Jesus returned from the dead and walked beside his apostles - they did not recognize Him until He allowed them to at the appropriate moment.

You cannot prove God’s existence because it has been ‘revealed’ to you through the Holy Spirit alone.

So no matter what documentation you present to athiests or agnostics, reason won’t make the difference…only the Holy Spirit does that.

If during an exchange of ideas with an athiest you find the person ‘coming around’, know for certain that it wasn’t because of what you said or did…it was because the Holy Spirit responded to your efforts to evangelize and lifted the blinders from that person.

I agree that it is by the grace of God that one comes to faith. But I also think that we may sometimes be the source of that grace.

God works through us and how we witness to His truth, Suppose I believe A=C and while our atheist friend only believes A=A, If by logic and reason I can prove to them that A also = B and B also =C than he may come by reason and logic that indeed A=C also is true.

I can plant the seed and hope it takes off on its own. However I think if I also water and fertilize that seed with what I have encountered and what I have come to believe, the seed will have a far better chance to grow and take root.

I can simply say I believe because, I think I’ve been given the grace of faith. BUT I think it is far more effective to say I believe because all the evidence that I have encountered confirms what I have been searching for.

I say believe not because I just happen to say so, but believe because these are the truths that I have discovered either by research or experience.

wc

 

[YinYangMom]

wcknight:

I agree that it is by the grace of God that one comes to faith. But I also think that we may sometimes be the source of that grace.

God works through us and how we witness to His truth, Suppose I believe A=C and while our atheist friend only believes A=A, If by logic and reason I can prove to them that A also = B and B also =C than he may come by reason and logic that indeed A=C also is true.

I can plant the seed and hope it takes off on its own. However I think if I also water and fertilize that seed with what I have encountered and what I have come to believe, the seed will have a far better chance to grow and take root.

I can simply say I believe because, I think I’ve been given the grace of faith. BUT I think it is far more effective to say I believe because all the evidence that I have encountered confirms what I have been searching for.

I say believe not because I just happen to say so, but believe because these are the truths that I have discovered either by research or experience.

wc

But honestly…
logic and reason cannot prove Jesus is the Son of God,
that he actually rose from the dead,
and that the reason we exist is to know God, to love Him and to serve Him.

Logic and reason can prove Jesus existed at one time.
It can prove that a whole heck of a lot of people believed what he said while on earth.
It can prove that a lot of people believed what the apostles said about seeing him risen from the dead…enough to be able to write it down within 70 years of his death…
It can prove that a whole heck of a lot of people believe what was written and live their lives according to that belief.

But all these people believe only because the Holy Spirit enables them to through baptism.

Remember, that a lot of people who followed Jesus when he was alive (the first time), turned away from the apostles after He rose from the dead and had them go out to spread the Good News - not being able to ‘believe’ for whatever reason.

Seeing is not believing.
You can use all your scientific and philosophical arsenal on a person but that person’s ability to comprehend and accept what you are saying as the Truth rests on the Holy Spirit.

Yes, we are called to present the Truth whenever possible. But it doesn’t mean we’re supposed to get into lengthy debates at every opportunity. Wasn’t it Francis of Assisi who said something about preaching the Truth at all times, and sometimes using words to do so?

More is accomplished, I believe, by how we live our Catholic lives than what we actually say.

Catholics have lost credibility on a number of issues because we don’t even follow what we call others to do (high contraception rates among Catholics, divorces, living together before marriage, anger management, tithing).

Was it Ghandi who said there would be world peace if all us Christians would live the life Jesus asked of us? He’s so right on the money…

We need to stop arguing, stop talking and start LIVING the Word.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Was it Ghandi who said there would be world peace if all us Christians would live the life Jesus asked of us? He’s so right on the money…

I think not on all of the money.

There will only be world peace when all the world, including Indians, Arabs, Africans and Orientals would live the life Jesus asked of us.

*We’re a long way from that.

 

[wcknight]

I think we need both… the Apostles went out and taught about Jesus, St Paul went to the Greeks and told them about what he believed.

We can not be hypocrites and do one thing while saying something else, BUT we have to be vocal and let folks in on what we believe.

St. Anthony argued with the Protestants about the real presence of the Eucharist and then He showed them with a miracle that he was correct.

Some folks need something more than words. Sometimes we are God’s instruments for the faith. To say the Holy Spirit will just drop in and make it happen may be ignoring our responsibilities. Jesus did not tell His disciple to just pray and the world would be forever changed, He told them too go out and teach all peoples.

God uses people for His emissaries. Yes, it takes the Holy Spirit to inspire us to say the right things, that will some how reach the cynics and skeptics. But God only whispers directly to the prophets (as in Samuel and Moses and some others) and the saints, for us ordinary folks, it takes one of us to speak up.

wc

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

AnAtheist

@Gilberth Keith: You cannot disprove the existence of Thor. Yet you don’t believe in Him. Why? Can’t you just accept Him?

***Your analogy is far from valid. ***

The reason I don’t believe in Thor is that this is not a god worthy of our belief.

Now extrapolate that view to any god, and you can understand how atheists think about your god. To atheists any god is not worthy of our belief.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

To atheists any god is not worthy of our belief.

Why so?

---

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

AnAtheist

To atheists any god is not worthy of our belief.

Why so?

This may be strange wording to you: For me a god must be plausible to be believed. The only gods plausible enough to me (like the Deists’ one) are so void of attributes, that there is not much left to believe in.

 

[YinYangMom]

AnAtheist:

This may be strange wording to you: For me a god must be plausible to be believed. The only gods plausible enough to me (like the Deists’ one) are so void of attributes, that there is not much left to believe in.

Define “plausible”, please.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

I was not under the impression that athiests had to have proof of anything…

It was my impression they accept what ‘is’ outright…without feeling the need to have an explanation as to ‘why’.

Perhaps I’m wrong.

An atheist will try to avoid having to prove anything claiming that no God is a default position and believers must prove God’s existence. An atheist is making a positive assertion about the world, that is God does not exist. Let him prove it.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

An atheist will try to avoid having to prove anything claiming that no God is a default position and believers must prove God’s existence. An atheist is making a positive assertion about the world, that is God does not exist. Let him prove it.

Why should a believer have to ‘prove’ God exists…
and why should an athiest have to prove God does not exist…

neither position can be proven by any true measure…

reason leads one to favor one position over the other…
faith reveals the Truth thru the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I just don’t get why there has to be a big challenge or debate whenever believers and non-believers meet. They can get along fine for an hour or two discussing various topics, but when the topic of faith comes around and the difference there becomes evident, it’s like ‘ewww’ or ‘bring it on’…one either walks away as if the other is diseased or they start arguing points, science and history and the relationship changes from one of bonding to one of debate.

I try to keep the athiests I know close by focusing on common ground whenever we’re together. Because of that we get together about once a quarter or so…and occasionally the topic of religion comes up, we share our thoughts, and move on to the next topic…keeping the visit pleasant enough to keep them going into the future…and each time a seed is planted. Because my faith is strong whatever seeds the athiest plants does not grow, and perhaps the same can be said of the other party, but a couple of them have asked deeper questions (in a casual manner) on future visits so I know the Holy Spirit is working on them and I continue to be patient…

Even now I still wish to understand more what an athiest’s position is on certain matters - not because I want to prove them wrong or challenge them - but just because I want a better understanding of the way they view the world so that I can see how to best share my view in a non-threatening manner.

If the prayers are fervent enough, the Holy Spirit can make a difference through subtle encounters with Christ’s flock…we don’t need to go pounding on doors or beating them with a stick.

by the way, the same can be said about the pro-choice/pro-life people out there. Goodness, if we’d all calm down and drop the defenses, we’d find common ground enough to let the Spirit do the rest, but we can’t even get an opening for the Spirit with all the shouting, name-calling and glaring we put out.