Atheists: What is the mean of life?

[AnAtheist]

YinYangMom:

Define “plausible”, please.

The deeds and attributes ascribed to him should fit together, ie not be contradictory. E.g. it is highly unplausible, that a god who wants everybody to spend eternity with him, only tells a tiny minority how to accomplish that. Or insists that certain rituals must be performed to accomplish that, like baptism. That makes no sense.

 

[buffalo]

AnAtheist:

The deeds and attributes ascribed to him should fit together, ie not be contradictory. E.g. it is highly unplausible, that a god who wants everybody to spend eternity with him, only tells a tiny minority how to accomplish that. Or insists that certain rituals must be performed to accomplish that, like baptism. That makes no sense.

Tiny minority? Over 1 billion are Catholic and this number rises if you add Christians and others. Atheists are the tiny minority who have chosen not to believe and to eat of the forbidden fruit all over again.

However, that is not the point. Jesus came and opened the gates of heaven to us. Then He instructed us to go and tell all nations. Men have failed to effectively tell all nations the path to salvation.

If God chose Baptism (water) to be a neccesity to erase original sin who are we arrogant humans to ask why or to only believe if it makes sense to our finite mind.

God wishes to freely bring all humans to Him.

 

[YinYangMom]

AnAtheist:

The deeds and attributes ascribed to him should fit together, ie not be contradictory. E.g. it is highly unplausible, that a god who wants everybody to spend eternity with him, only tells a tiny minority how to accomplish that. Or insists that certain rituals must be performed to accomplish that, like baptism. That makes no sense.

Taken out of context, yes, many aspects of what has been revealed about God would seem contradictory - especially depending upon with whom you speak about Him.

When viewed in totality, though - through scripture showing how the New Testament fulfills the Old and through Tradition - the contradictions of the time, now having been fulfilled, show themselves to be all part of a grand design to bring all people back to Him.

Add to that, scientific and historical evidence to support the overall concept, and reason - with the grace of God - and one’s heart and mind open to the Truth.

But of course, the desire to know the Truth needs to be there first, and the athiests I know just don’t seem to place knowing any “grand” truth to be high on their list of priorities. They seem content focusing on their personal truths - the ones which affect them on a daily basis and their interactions with others, not because they care so much about everyone around them, but more because they care about themselves and their own self-esteem. I’m not saying that as a bad thing…just that it appears to be that way, and it seems to work for them. They have the same regard/respect for life as me, for the most part, but don’t seem to know ‘why’ they believe the way they do. It boils down to logic and reasoning to them…almost along the lines of ‘Do unto others as you would want done unto you’ or ‘what goes around comes around’, and yet for us believers, the Do Unto Others was handed down by Christ, whereas for the non-believers, it doesn’t seem to matter where it came from, just that it makes sense and seems to work.

Heck, I didn’t even really become interested in finding the Truth until my kids hit puberty - and that was because I really wanted to be accurate in my responses to them as questions came up. Recognizing I would have only a few more short years to help form their consciences and develop manners, responsibilities, etc. before they went out on their own…and mostly because I wanted to make sure their standards were set for the dating years - for the boy, I wanted to make sure he treated girls with dignity and respect, protecting her honor for whomever she will marry someday (as it most likely won’t be him)…for my daughter, it was to make sure any boyfriend would treat her with respect and dignity and would want to protect her honor as well.

Until that phase hit, I thought I knew the Truth … and found I was off…but that’s the beauty of this forum, Relevant Radio and all the literature out there. As Mulder would say, “The Truth is out there”…and he’s right.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

The only gods plausible enough to me (like the Deists’ one) are so void of attributes, that there is not much left to believe in.

Well, at least we agree on that one. I have never been able to fathom those who want there to be a God but who believe that God wants nothting to do with us. Talk about contradictions!

The notion that God contradicts himself doesn’t hold water. The problem with the usual atheist attempt to understand the way God thinks is that the atheist wants to be entirely inside God’s head and understand everything. This is clearly impossible, since then the atheist then would be God.

But why is the Christian God unworthy of belief, when He is the only God who thought enough of us to become one of us and die a terrible death to atone for our sins?

There isn’t any other God who comes close to that quality of love and kindness toward his creation.

As for those who never had a chance to know Jesus, to choose between accepting him and denying him, we make no judgment.

God knows how to judge their hearts, if we don’t.

 

[YinYangMom]

Gilbert Keith:

But why is the Christian God unworthy of belief, when He is the only God who thought enough of us to become one of us and die a terrible death to atone for our sins?

You, know, that death thing really is the part which keeps me steady…when you think about God coming down in a human body to be brutally mangled like that…all for the sake of opening the gates of heaven to all souls (dead and alive)…it’s just so mindblowing it has that air of Truth about it. Like that saying, Truth is stranger than fiction…well the story of Jesus is soo what one would not expect it must be true…

It certainly keeps my kids believing too. When my son was questioning God “controlling us like a Sims game”…and therefore, what’s the point of aspiring to anything since He already knows what we’re going to do anyway… The one thing he was firm on in our discussions was the belief that Jesus was indeed a man who walked this earth, and he believes what Jesus said…so from there he was able to see God for the loving Father Jesus showed us He is and my son was better able to submit to God’s will - trusting that He only wants the best for him. That Trust was a biggie for my son.

 

[johnpaullover]

Note: I am a theist.

Any theist who says the world could not have come about by chance has forgotten quantum physics.
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

No God, no purpose. End of story.

 

[buffalo]

johnpaullover:

Note: I am a theist.

Any theist who says the world could not have come about by chance has forgotten quantum physics.
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

No God, no purpose. End of story.

Quantum physics is probabilistic by nature. If you take the observer requirement you ultimately arrive at God. That is the quiet secret about quantum physics.

The universe exhibits both chance and necessary processes.

 

[alekzander]

I always wondered about people who don’t believe in God,How can their be Justice with no God? Why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape someone? i could just say that i evolved differently than you and my body makes me shoot people and harm them.If there is no God how do you explain to someone that was born blind or with a deformity that they just got the short end of the stick and,oh well,sorry for you! The bible tells us that when sin entered the world things that were never supposed to be came to be and that one day God will make things right again.So to be an atheist is hopeless! Why would anyone want to live without hope?even as hard as it is for some to believe in God don’t you at least want to hope there is?there are so many things that you see in this world that just are not right and they demand justice-take God out of it and all you have is hopelessness,Why would anyone even want that?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

"Why would anyone even want that?"

That is the billion dollar question. Why would anyone want there to be no God? Yet I believe atheists want there to be no God, judging by the ferocity of their logic to oppose every possible avenue to finding God.

 

[cheddarsox]

alekzander:

I always wondered about people who don’t believe in God,How can their be Justice with no God?
**
Good point! Where in the world do you see justice? I don’t see it. I keep hearing about this wonderful God, all loving, all just, but there is no sign of this love or justice. Unless I am willing to believe that he cooked up some “just” system where he would send someone to be horribly tortured to atone for all the lousy things other people do…is that justice?**

Why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape someone?

**It is wrong because society says so. If you live in a society that doesn’t say so (and there are some, and have been many) then you could just get away with it. There is plenty of history to prove this. A good, hard look at the universe will lead one to believe, that there is no ultimate right or wrong. Stuff happens all the time that simply has no explanation on a right/wrong scale.
**
i could just say that i evolved differently than you and my body makes me shoot people and harm them.

**Yes, that is exactly right. **

If there is no God how do you explain to someone that was born blind or with a deformity that they just got the short end of the stick and,oh well,sorry for you!

Yes!!! Finally, someone gets it. That’s right. Stuff happens, stuff we like, and stuff we don’t like. It happens, and not because some big guy in the sky singles us out for blessing or abuse. Or do you think it is preferable for me to believe that my infirmities, losses, etc are because I was singled out. How does that make it better? How is it better to believe that the rich dude was especially chosen for blessing and I was not. How does that give me more hope?

The bible tells us that when sin entered the world things that were never supposed to be came to be and that one day God will make things right again.So to be an atheist is hopeless!

I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in a personal god, so I feel I have a right to answer your questions. I am not hopeless. I have as much chance as the next guy to make a decent life for myself and my family. I am not waiting on a capricious god, who shows no sign of stepping in on my behalf anytime soon to make it all better. I see the world, I see how it is, I accept it and go on. Honestly, I am much more hopeful and sane now than when I bought people’s line about how everything that happened to me was god’s wonderful plan. Not only did it not make sense, it made me think god was insane and sadistic. That was not a hopeful place.

Why would anyone want to live without hope?

I do not live without hope. I have hopes, wishes, and dreams. I just have different hopes than people who believe in your concept of god have. That does not leave me hopeless. In order to understand an different viewpoint, it would be good if you could step back from yours enough to see that it is not a case of your view or no view at all. There are other options out there.

even as hard as it is for some to believe in God don’t you at least want to hope there is?there are so many things that you see in this world that just are not right and they demand justice-take God out of it and all you have is hopelessness,Why would anyone even want that?

**I believe in the divine, but I do not believe in a Catholic or Christian personal deity. And honestly, I hope such god does not exist, because I think it falls short of the true greatness and possibility of the divine. I am not hopeless. I was hopeless when I was presented with a concept of god that was so terribly twisted and petty as to make me wish I had never been born.

Now I know a divine that leaves me with a much greater peace, and more hope than I ever had before. And the justice of the divine is much greater, far reaching and complete than any human design of justice. It is what is. And I am compelled to worship the awesomeness of the design, the very acknowledgement and recognition of which makes me tingle and tremble and call out in praise. And the wonder of it, is that I don’t have to “want” it, it is, and it is all around me, and it is available at all times.

cheddar**

 

[Ahimsa]

Dentists do it in the chair.
Psychiatrists do it on the couch.
Atheists don’t believe they’re doing it.

 

[cheddarsox]

Ahimsa:

Dentists do it in the chair.
Psychiatrists do it on the couch.
Atheists don’t believe they’re doing it.

Pantheists do it…everywhere?

What is it? WORSHIP of course! LOL.

It is a wonderful world.

cheddar

 

[reen12]

Hi, AnAtheist,

quote: AnAtheist

The deeds and attributes ascribed to him should fit together, ie not be contradictory. E.g. it is highly unplausible, that a god who wants everybody to spend eternity with him, only tells a tiny minority how to accomplish that. Or insists that certain rituals must be performed to accomplish that, like baptism. That makes no sense.

Well, again, I’ll go this far with you: even if Christians comprise
over 1 billion people, what is that? 20 per cent of the world’s
population?

How about this? Judaism believes that there is a place
in the world to come for the righteous of all nations.
“Righteous”, here, meaning those who try to cleave to
a morality that holds ‘do not harm other human beings’,
basically.] Judaism does not demand one convert to
Judaism, or follow the Mosaic Law. It hopes to draw
people to the God of Israel by example.
So those who have never even heard of the one God
will spend eternity with Him, based on their love and
compassion for others.

reen12

 

[Ahimsa]

Yes, Worship.

Of course.

 

[AnAtheist]

buffalo:

Tiny minority? Over 1 billion are Catholic and this number rises if you add Christians and others. Atheists are the tiny minority who have chosen not to believe and to eat of the forbidden fruit all over again.

That’s not what I meant. (There are roughly a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and a billion Taoists too.)

First he revealed himself to Jews, a small nomadic tribe.

At the second time, according to the NT, to 500+ people.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

AnAtheist

The notion that God contradicts himself doesn’t hold water. The problem with the usual atheist attempt to understand the way God thinks is that the atheist wants to be entirely inside God’s head and understand everything. This is clearly impossible, since then the atheist then would be God.

I am aware, that if there was a god, I could not totally understand him. But what I can understand, is, what religions claim to know about him. And what Christianity teaches is simply not convincing to me.

But why is the Christian God unworthy of belief, when He is the only God who thought enough of us to become one of us and die a terrible death to atone for our sins?

Two reasons:

1. He seems to be blood-thirsty, as only some bloody sacrificies can atone sins.
2. Why are some build-in features of humans (designed/created by god himself) be considered sins in the first place?
   In short: Why should a god sacrifice himself to himself to save us from a fate he has created for us?

Before you protest, yes I know the argument, that evil is not derived from God but totally man-made or defined as the absence of god, but that too is not convincing to me.

Here is a 3rd reason, but that is more against the Protestant Fundi version of God, not the Catholic one:
It is neither just nor loving to let a rapist or mass murderer into heaven just because he repented 10secs before his death, and condemn (by God’s own standards) good people to hell just because they didn’t buy the Jesus story or prayed to the wrong god.

There isn’t any other God who comes close to that quality of love and kindness toward his creation.

From your point of view. The same can be said about Allah from a Muslim point of view.

 

[Philthy]

YinYangMom:

Athiests don’t seek God.
But those who believe in God seek out athiests and agnostics as part of their call to evangelization.
For us it matters that we share the Good News.
But for those we are trying to reach, it does not matter.
It is by the grace of the Holy Spirit alone that an athiest or agnostic is able to ‘see the light’.
We cannot convert a person’s heart with science, debates or arguments.
We can only share what we know to be the truth and pray the Holy Spirit enables the recipient to recognize it as such.

I agree with what you are saying here but would like to add a little clarity to your thoughts. It is true that “we cannot convert a person’s heart with science, debates or arguments” alone. But that does not imply that those are not the means God will choose to act through. If conversion somehow occurs independent of such means, what would be the purpose of evangelism per se? Wouldn’t prayer be the means of effecting conversion rather than dialogue?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

**I believe in the divine, but I do not believe in a Catholic or Christian personal deity. And honestly, I hope such god does not exist, because I think it falls short of the true greatness and possibility of the divine. I am not hopeless. I was hopeless when I was presented with a concept of god that was so terribly twisted and petty as to make me wish I had never been born. **

**Now I know a divine that leaves me with a much greater peace, and more hope than I ever had before. And the justice of the divine is much greater, far reaching and complete than any human design of justice. It is what is. And I am compelled to worship the awesomeness of the design, the very acknowledgement and recognition of which makes me tingle and tremble and call out in praise. And the wonder of it, is that I don’t have to “want” it, it is, and it is all around me, and it is available at all times. **

cheddar

Hello again cheddarsox! :yup:

You claim to have a notion of God/Divinity that is contrary to the Christian God but continually fail to articulate the attributes of your God which are distinct from that Christian God - IMO. For example, you state that " I believe in the divine, but I do not believe in a Catholic or Christian personal deity."
Presumably your point of dissent is over the “personal” nature of God, ie your “divine” has no interest in you personally. Yet you go on to say, “…I know a divine that leaves me with a much greater peace, and more hope than I ever had before…the very acknowledgement and recognition of which makes me tingle and tremble and call out in praise.” That sounds like a personal benefit the divine has given you, personally. Im not saying that you necessarily agree with all the Christian concepts of God, all Im saying is that you have failed to articulate any characteristic of your concept of divinity which outright contradicts characteristics of the Christian God. What am I missing?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

AnAtheist:

I am aware, that if there was a god, I could not totally understand him. But what I can understand, is, what religions claim to know about him. And what Christianity teaches is simply not convincing to me.

So you’re not convinced - fair enough. But that is different than knowing god doesn’t exist. I told you a while back that a key component of believing in Jesus Christ is acceptance of the resurrection. You don’t believe it despite the writings of, changed lives of, and passive acceptance of martyrdom of the apostles. You must have some evidence to the contrary to solidify your belief - care to share it?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=777998&postcount=141
Here’s the post I originally put before you on the topic and all you said was that if you believed in the resurrection that “we would not be having this discussion”. Well what is your reason for not accepting the historical accounts of the resurrection?

AnAtheist:

Two reasons:

1. He seems to be blood-thirsty, as only some bloody sacrificies can atone sins.
2. Why are some build-in features of humans (designed/created by god himself) be considered sins in the first place?
   In short: Why should a god sacrifice himself to himself to save us from a fate he has created for us?

This should only be a stumbling block if you know that any other way is both better and possible. You can’t know that, can you? Yet you feel qualified to judge. My verdict? Illogical.

AnAtheist:

Before you protest, yes I know the argument, that evil is not derived from God but totally man-made or defined as the absence of god, but that too is not convincing to me.

Is your judgement perfect?

AnAtheist:

Here is a 3rd reason, but that is more against the Protestant Fundi version of God, not the Catholic one:
It is neither just nor loving to let a rapist or mass murderer into heaven just because he repented 10secs before his death, and condemn (by God’s own standards) good people to hell just because they didn’t buy the Jesus story or prayed to the wrong god.

why not? What is just about love? what is fair about forgiveness?
forgiveness doesn’t make sense - should we outlaw it, or is it BETTER than “justice” sometimes?

Phil

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

You said of your reasons for not accepting the Christian God::

Two reasons:
1. He seems to be blood-thirsty, as only some bloody sacrificies can atone sins.
*2. … *In short: Why should a god sacrifice himself to himself to save us from a fate he has created for us?

Why is God blood thirsty?

It was Adam and Eve who brought death into the world. Then Cain after them. It is only right, then, that the atonement for death be yet another death of a higher order that cleanses all of us of our sins and opens the door to eternal life.

What you really seem to be having a problem with is the idea of atonement. Atonement is based on Justice. The scales must balance. We cannot defy God with impunity. What kind of God would allow that? And what kind of a human race would we have that believed it could sin without having to pay? A pretty bloodthirsty race, I’d say.

Why should a god sacrifice himself to himself to save us from a fate he has created for us?

How about to show his love for us? "No greater love has a man than this: that he lay down his life for his friend."

And do remember that we had a hand in creating our own fate.

Now, why do you want God not to exist … even after you have been told that this God is all merciful and all just?

Why do you prefer to believe in a godless universe where there is no guarantee of the final triumph of good over evil?

Why do you prefer to believe that an uncreated universe is more heartless and unjust and bloodthirsty than the Christian God since it swallows us all up into the black hole of death and nothingness?

If you really despise the Christian God, what must you think of this bloodthirsty godless universe you defend daily with all your might?

You are caught up in some mighty bewildering dilemmas if you can’t give some mighty convincing answers.