Atheists: What is the mean of life?

[cheddarsox]

YinYangMom:

This, I understand. It is enough for you and it allows you to fully participate in life. That is a blessing indeed. I would think God would be pleased that you appreciate everything around you as you do - with such zeal and passion - as it is but one of the gifts He gave to man.

He offers more, though, for those who seek it. And yet, if I understand you correctly, LIFE is enough, more than enough for you that you see no reason to look beyond life for more or better, doing so distracted you from appreciating the wonders around you…am I following you correctly?

Life is all I know. I have no reason to believe there is anything beyond it. I even had a near death experience, and that did not point to anything like a Christian afterlife.

For some people, the idea of eternity is a comfort, it is a way to believe that ultimate justice will occur, and they will have another shot at everything they didn’t get here on earth. My life has led me to be more pragmatic and practical, why assume that this life that I have, that I know the divine has granted me, why assume that is not what I am supposed to be focused on? Why assume that this is really some sort of test, experiment, training ground or any number of other explanations different religions give it? Why not assume that this is it.The gift. The thing I am supposed to be doing. I have no reason to believe there really is an afterlife. Was there a before life? Some say there was, some say there were many, but I don’t recall them. If there is an afterlife, then I will deal with it when I get there, just as I deal with this life now.

I don’t think I will have the opportunity to see and do all I would like to in this life, but that is not reason enough for me to assume I will get another one.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*The truth is, I have had my life and liberty threatened, I have had horrendous injustice occur to me and members of my family and friends. My life is not easy, is anyone’s? Why do you assume that the only way my faith can work is under easy conditions?
…
When I was Catholic, I cried out to God, and was ignored. That was of no more use to me than not crying out at all. And people gave me piles of words to explain that God really was there, and really did love me, etc etc, but these things all happened for a reason…but no one knew what the reason was…Now I know the reason, it is the nature of the universe.
*

It is the nature of the universe not to answer your cries. It is not in the the nature of God not to answer them. Even when you thought you were not getting an answer, you were. As Bishop Sheen put it: from God there are three possible answers to our prayers.

YES
NO
WAIT

You got one of those answers. Perhaps you didn’t like the answer you got?

But let me tell you … you did not get any answer from the universe … because the universe has no face, and no voice, and is indifferent to your fate.

You preach hope … what hope? What you really preach is peaceful resignation to your fate. You are a fatalist. You have surrendered to the universe instead of to God.

Poor choice. There is no doubt in my mind that your continual search for God, in these forums and elsewhere, will result in a change of heart.

God bless your struggle.

 

[cheddarsox]

Gilbert Keith:

It is the nature of the universe not to answer your cries. It is not in the the nature of God not to answer them. Even when you thought you were not getting an answer, you were. As Bishop Sheen put it: from God there are three possible answers to our prayers.

YES
NO
WAIT

You got one of those answers. Perhaps you didn’t like the answer you got?

But let me tell you … you did not get any answer from the universe … because the universe has no face, and no voice, and is indifferent to your fate.

You preach hope … what hope? What you really preach is peaceful resignation to your fate. You are a fatalist. You have surrendered to the universe instead of to God.

Poor choice. There is no doubt in my mind that your continual search for God, in these forums and elsewhere, will result in a change of heart.

God bless your struggle.

Thanks, but I am not experiencing a struggle of faith. I did not get an answer from the universe, nor did I expect one, I fully accept that it is indifferent to my fate. I am a fatalist, no doubt about that.

I am not preaching anything, I am stating my beliefs, but I neither ask nor expect to change anyone elses. If God is all the wonderful things for you that the church teaches, good for you! Enjoy whatever benefits come to you because of that.

My experience with many people/churches when it comes to God, is they make some very attractive statements concerning him, all loving, just, looking out for his own, etc, but then, when confronted with reality, there are endless books, theologies and explanations as to why he doesn’t appear to be these things at all, but still really is. I didn’t find peace, love or justice in the endless mental gymnastics it took to reconcile the God they spoke of with the reality of the universe.

cheddar

 

[buffalo]

cheddarsox:

My experience with many people/churches when it comes to God, is they make some very attractive statements concerning him, all loving, just, looking out for his own, etc, but then, when confronted with reality, there are endless books, theologies and explanations as to why he doesn’t appear to be these things at all, but still really is. I didn’t find peace, love or justice in the endless mental gymnastics it took to reconcile the God they spoke of with the reality of the universe.

cheddar

One of the things that happened after Vatican II was they stopped/forgot to teach that God is all loving and perfectly just.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

PRAYER FOR ATHEISTS

by Carl Sundell

Father, you said we should ask and we would receive. Today many in the world have hardened their hearts against you. It is for them that we ask, as they will not ask for themselves … soften their hearts. Many of them once believed in You and have lost their way. They have become sad, angry, and bitter for some hardship or failure in their lives. In childhood they may have lost a parent or had cold and uncaring mothers and fathers. They may have known the death of a child, or the loss of a loved one. Joy may have gone out of their lives and they have turned against You. Help them to feel Your loving Spirit once again. Help them to understand that they are not alone in their pain, and that you long ago joined with them in Your suffering on the cross. Help them to sense that, even though they have turned away from You, there is still in You a haunting presence that will not go away. Soften their hearts. Let each one of them some day be walking along a beach, or reading a book, or entering a room … and hear a voice, however distant, calling from within … “Come, follow me.”

Amen

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

Thanks, but I am not experiencing a struggle of faith. I did not get an answer from the universe, nor did I expect one, I fully accept that it is indifferent to my fate. I am a fatalist, no doubt about that.

I am not preaching anything, I am stating my beliefs, but I neither ask nor expect to change anyone elses. If God is all the wonderful things for you that the church teaches, good for you! Enjoy whatever benefits come to you because of that.

My experience with many people/churches when it comes to God, is they make some very attractive statements concerning him, all loving, just, looking out for his own, etc, but then, when confronted with reality, there are endless books, theologies and explanations as to why he doesn’t appear to be these things at all, but still really is. I didn’t find peace, love or justice in the endless mental gymnastics it took to reconcile the God they spoke of with the reality of the universe.

cheddar

Well I certainly appreciate your taking the time to share your beliefs with us.

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

Life is all I know. I have no reason to believe there is anything beyond it. I even had a near death experience, and that did not point to anything like a Christian afterlife.

For some people, the idea of eternity is a comfort, it is a way to believe that ultimate justice will occur, and they will have another shot at everything they didn’t get here on earth. My life has led me to be more pragmatic and practical, why assume that this life that I have, that I know the divine has granted me, why assume that is not what I am supposed to be focused on? Why assume that this is really some sort of test, experiment, training ground or any number of other explanations different religions give it? Why not assume that this is it.The gift. The thing I am supposed to be doing. I have no reason to believe there really is an afterlife. Was there a before life? Some say there was, some say there were many, but I don’t recall them. If there is an afterlife, then I will deal with it when I get there, just as I deal with this life now.

I don’t think I will have the opportunity to see and do all I would like to in this life, but that is not reason enough for me to assume I will get another one.

cheddar

I personally do not understand the concept of justice. People struggle with it all the time, but my understanding of God and life are that bad and good things happen because of choices people have made at one point or another - starting a chain of events, beginning with Adam and Eve - where the outcome can be altered if someone along the chain changes their mind at the last second… but even if they don’t and a ‘bad’ thing occurs there is always good that can come from it so I don’t understand the cry for justice. And then add to that the question of what justice is, anyway.

To me, justice is whatever God has in mind in the End…it’s not for me to know in this lifetime and I can’t even imagine what it could mean on the other side. Knowing that what matters most to God is that all souls come to Him, and knowing that the worst of humanity can, at the last moments of their lives, truly have a conversion of heart and call to Him for mercy - and that God will grant that mercy - it kinda really takes the entire situation out of my hands. Would I be unhappy to stand beside a serial rapist/murderer at the End in God’s Kingdom? No…for if his being there beside me is pleasing to God, then certainly I will find the joy in the situation as well.

It took me a long time to get that in my head and I still struggle with God’s unfathomable mercy at times. What helps me through it, though, is reminding myself that life isn’t what it’s all about. Our real purpose is to live in the Kingdom of God with Him and those who joined Him before me. In that way I relate to the Lord of the Rings Trilogy…how the story unfolds in Ages…and how the end of the Age of Elves is the beginning of the Age of Man, how the forging of the Rings happened in the 4th Age of time…looking at history that concept of Ages makes sense to me. There is this time, this space, this age I interact in but I’ve been told there is another place I’m called to go to when this body stops working. That makes, for me, all things which happen to me on earth, temporary…for me, life just is and I go with the flow, but I strive for the end goal.

Only certain entities were invited to go on the boat with the Elves at the end of the Trilogy. So it is with the Kingdom of God, in my view. We have been told who will gain entrance and we have been told that we will be judged in the end as to whether or not we earned passage so since this life is temporary, and we are going to be judged on how we spent our time here, then I find purpose in this life. I certainly don’t view the afterlife as an opportunity to get it right the second time around or where wrongs get righted…it’s just another Age, so to speak, one that sounds so beautiful - moreso than this one, and this one’s rather awesome in itself - that I definitely want to go there someday.

 

[Philthy]

cheddarsox:

I am sorry that I have not been clear, I will attempt to remedy that. I do not believe in a deity, as in a “person” with a “personality”, or a being. The divine which I have come to know does not have human characteristics, nor personality, nor is it a being.

It is involved in every aspect of my life, but not as a being, not in a cozy way or in a way that could be compared to a human relationship, more in the manner of gravity or electromagnetism or another impersonal, yet very important, active and dynamic force.

The divine, to me, is not a deity with a face or personality.

I hope that helps to clarify my position.

cheddar

Hardly, because then your prior statement,

cheddarsox:

**And I am compelled to worship the awesomeness of the design, the very acknowledgement and recognition of which makes me tingle and tremble and call out in praise. **

**Becomes sensless - who or what will you be “worshipping” and “calling out in praise” to ??? **

---

clarification still eludes me…

---

Phil

 

[cheddarsox]

Hardly, because then your prior statement,

**Becomes sensless - who or what will you be “worshipping” and “calling out in praise” to ??? **

clarification still eludes me…

Phil

I am worshipping and praising the divine. It does not have to be humanlike, have a face or be a being to be worshipped or praised. People have praised the sun, the rain, beauty, all sorts of things without thinking those things had a personality. I praise that which makes it possible, I cannot definitively say what “that” is. I am not fully in understanding of it’s nature. But my response is, none the less, worship and praise.

And even if you understand what I am saying, it may still appear senseless to you. That is OK. It is not the purpose of my faith to make me appear wise, logical, or sensible to others.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

YinYangMom:

To me, justice is whatever God has in mind in the End…it’s not for me to know in this lifetime and I can’t even imagine what it could mean on the other side. Knowing that what matters most to God is that all souls come to Him, and knowing that the worst of humanity can, at the last moments of their lives, truly have a conversion of heart and call to Him for mercy - and that God will grant that mercy - it kinda really takes the entire situation out of my hands. Would I be unhappy to stand beside a serial rapist/murderer at the End in God’s Kingdom? No…for if his being there beside me is pleasing to God, then certainly I will find the joy in the situation as well.

I know what you mean here. A few years ago a coworker of mine was brutally raped and murdered. When they caught the murderer, I did not feel the hatred, disgust, vengefullness I expected I would. I felt sad, because he was a person too, and how sad that a person was so messed up and unhappy inside, that this is how they play their life out. And I don’t know what justice means in a case like this. He needs not to be free to do this again, to take more lives (my friend was not the only one he has raped and/or murdered), but is there anyway to “serve” justice? His actions were, as you say, part of a chain of actions and decisions made by chains of people. He is on death row now for a rape/murder of another woman. And his death will not bring any of those people back, nor take away the fear and pain in those he hurt who still live.

I was severly abused as a child. And the misfortune, which some might term justice, of some of my abusers doesn’t make me feel better, or make my life better. It just makes more pain and sorrow in the world. I wish healing for them as well as for myself, because more pain and hurt doesn’t fix the first pain and hurt.

I am glad that the faith in an afterlife and the belief in the mercy of God bring you hope, for yourself as well as others.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

YinYangMom:

What helps me through it, though, is reminding myself that life isn’t what it’s all about. Our real purpose is to live in the Kingdom of God with Him and those who joined Him before me.

This part is what I don’t “get”, one of the parts of Catholicism and many other religions that doesn’t make sense to me.Why would the purpose of this life be something other than this life? If we were created to live in heaven with God for eternity, then why bother with this earthly thing? yes, I know the theology/explanations for why, but they make no sense to me. I think this is part of the “gift of faith” that was not bestowed on me.

cheddar

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

I am worshipping and praising the divine. It does not have to be humanlike, have a face or be a being to be worshipped or praised. People have praised the sun, the rain, beauty, all sorts of things without thinking those things had a personality. I praise that which makes it possible, I cannot definitively say what “that” is. I am not fully in understanding of it’s nature. But my response is, none the less, worship and praise.

And even if you understand what I am saying, it may still appear senseless to you. That is OK. It is not the purpose of my faith to make me appear wise, logical, or sensible to others.

cheddar

From our perspective you are still worshipping and praising God.
It’s just that you are more comfortable doing so without all the constraints and restrictions religion places on Him. I can understand the hesitation, resistance to having to put a face on God. As you said earlier…you praise that which IS…“I AM”…and I AM is God. You accept God but not the revelations of who or what God.

This is why those who never hear the Word of God but who live a life in accord with God’s plan - in the natural order - will still have a shot at heaven.

But, being Catholic at one time, the burden is harder on your soul, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, because you have heard the Word, and have turned away from it.

We can’t unknow what we knew…we can accept or reject it. Because you could not make sense of all the whys and wherefors revealed thru the Church and the Bible, because those things did no coincide with what you expected you tossed them aside, resigning yourself to focus only on God in His awesomeness - in your own way - not the way Jesus called you to come to Him, but your own way…one which is easier, more comfortable for you. But the Way of the Cross is not comfortable and I certainly can understand the desire to take it off.

In your mind you have succeeded in removing the yoke and you are content in knowing that in the long run - for your body and mind - that’ll work out just fine. But do you deny you have a soul? If so, what happens to it when your body dies? You say you’ll cross that bridge when you come to it (if it exists as we say it does) but there are no options for your soul after it leaves your body…there is nothing you will be able to do then…it will be up to us, those who believe in the Mercy of Christ who pray for all lost souls that they may gain entrance to the Kingdom.

Then again, that’s not a bad wager…live your life praising God alone, marveling in His wonder, embracing the goodness He offers, accepting the bad without developing anger or animosity toward God for those, but understanding they happen for a reason - one beyond your control…Certainly you won’t be damned to hell…and there are billions of Catholics out here who will gladly pray for your soul after you’ve gone. My only concern would be the fact that you are a baptized Catholic. I thought there was a bible passage that said those of us who know will be judged much more harshly than those who didn’t…and that’s where I worry even our prayers won’t be able to help you.

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

This part is what I don’t “get”, one of the parts of Catholicism and many other religions that doesn’t make sense to me.Why would the purpose of this life be something other than this life? If we were created to live in heaven with God for eternity, then why bother with this earthly thing? yes, I know the theology/explanations for why, but they make no sense to me. I think this is part of the “gift of faith” that was not bestowed on me.

cheddar

That’s precisely the stumbling block my 16 year old son struck before his confirmation…it sent our family on a mission to find the answers.

It comes down to the Creation. Because of Adam and Eve’s fall we have never known the full intention of God’s design for us. We **would **have known it if they would have left well enough alone, but in that short time we caught a glimpse of His love and His desire for us.

Then Jesus came and He revealed God’s plan to redeem us - to right the wrong of Adam and Eve. And in the time He was on earth He gave us more glimpses of what lies ahead for us through the parables. So we know there is more. Jesus was able to prove it by resurrecting and revealing His glorified body to us, and He promises us our own glorified bodies when we meet Him again. He promised us He will never leave us and reassures us that He’s waiting for us at His table…He’s reserved a seat for us.

Because my son absolutely believes and is convinced, scientifically, that Jesus really existed - really walked the earth and all - it was a matter then of believing in Jesus’ words. My son could not find any reason not to believe that Jesus said the things the bible says He did. He understands he can’t comprehend a lot of what Jesus talked about, but recognizes that is his own limitations due to age and reason, and that for now he must simply Trust.

By the way, you do have the gift of faith…it was bestowed upon you at your baptism. Your a bit out of touch with it with regard to Catholicism, but it’s alive and well in the way you worship the divine.

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

I was severly abused as a child. And the misfortune, which some might term justice, of some of my abusers doesn’t make me feel better, or make my life better. It just makes more pain and sorrow in the world. I wish healing for them as well as for myself, because more pain and hurt doesn’t fix the first pain and hurt.

I am glad that the faith in an afterlife and the belief in the mercy of God bring you hope, for yourself as well as others.

cheddar

See, you do have the gift of faith. That you can wish healing for them as well as yourself after all you’ve been through is a strong sign of faith. Faith in, as you say, the Divine…that it’ll work itself out somehow, sometime, whether or not you live to see just how.

As for belief in mercy and an afterlife “bringing” me hope…I wouldn’t agree with that. My hope is for all the others for whom I pray.

Hope, Love, Mercy, Charity - those are all gifts I give to others, people on earth and to the souls in purgatory, so that they may come to know God’s love. Those gifts bring me peace knowing they make a difference for them.

I don’t hope for the afterlife. I know it exists because Jesus described it, and I know that I will get to be a part of it. Anticipation is what thinking of the afterlife brings to me. It’s kind of like looking forward to going on your first real vacation to someplace so beyond what you’ve ever known. I can’t wait to get there, but now is not my time. So while I wait, I make the most of what is around me knowing that He needs me here for a reason.

As for mercy bringing me hope, I don’t know. I pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet and I pray the rosary. I show my love for God by doing my best to please Him by following the guidelines He took such care to share with me through His only Son, Jesus. He has promised mercy to those who go to Him, and I go to Him quite often so hope doesn’t quite fit. Like the afterlife, I know He will be merciful to me when the time comes because He promised it.

Perhaps if I hope for anything for myself, it’s that I won’t need much of His mercy when that happens. Living in this world, in the U.S. in this age, makes remaining focused on God difficult, there are so many distractions and distortions everywhere, even in the Church. This is where my faith helps me to remain strong.

 

[cheddarsox]

YinYangMom:

From our perspective you are still worshipping and praising God.

From my perspective you too are worshipping the divine, just in a different manner than myself.

It’s just that you are more comfortable doing so without all the constraints and restrictions religion places on Him. I can understand the hesitation, resistance to having to put a face on God. As you said earlier…you praise that which IS…“I AM”…and I AM is God. You accept God but not the revelations of who or what God.

I’ll buy that.I am a pantheist, I do not deny there is somethig out there.

But, being Catholic at one time, the burden is harder on your soul, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, because you have heard the Word, and have turned away from it.

This is where we part ways.

We can’t unknow what we knew…we can accept or reject it. Because you could not make sense of all the whys and wherefors revealed thru the Church and the Bible, because those things did no coincide with what you expected you tossed them aside, resigning yourself to focus only on God in His awesomeness - in your own way - not the way Jesus called you to come to Him, but your own way…one which is easier, more comfortable for you. But the Way of the Cross is not comfortable and I certainly can understand the desire to take it off.

I reject the teachings of the church, not because god was not what I expected, but because the divine was not what they said it was. I had deeply meaningful experiences through prayer, and I had all my regular life experiences, and the divine simply is not what the church says it is. I decided to go with the divine, rather than the church. Life has taught me to trust my gut. I don’t know why Catholics think that any life outside the church, and every faith system other than theirs is neccessarily easy and comfortable. It is different, but different is not automatically different.

But do you deny you have a soul? If so, what happens to it when your body dies? You say you’ll cross that bridge when you come to it (if it exists as we say it does) but there are no options for your soul after it leaves your body…there is nothing you will be able to do then…it will be up to us, those who believe in the Mercy of Christ who pray for all lost souls that they may gain entrance to the Kingdom.

I understand that this is your belief. All I can say is, mine is different. I do not believe in eternal life.

My only concern would be the fact that you are a baptized Catholic.

**Now, wouldn’t that be something! I would be condemned to hell because when I was a few days old someone else poured water over my head and said the magic words! Yeah for an all loving God who has created such a wonderful means for my condemnation when I was too young and senseless to do for myself. No, that is not the divine I know.

cheddar
**

.

 

[cheddarsox]

YinYangMom:

I don’t hope for the afterlife. I know it exists because Jesus described it, and I know that I will get to be a part of it. Anticipation is what thinking of the afterlife brings to me. It’s kind of like looking forward to going on your first real vacation to someplace so beyond what you’ve ever known. I can’t wait to get there, but now is not my time. So while I wait, I make the most of what is around me knowing that He needs me here for a reason.

As for mercy bringing me hope, I don’t know. I pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet and I pray the rosary. I show my love for God by doing my best to please Him by following the guidelines He took such care to share with me through His only Son, Jesus. He has promised mercy to those who go to Him, and I go to Him quite often so hope doesn’t quite fit. Like the afterlife, I know He will be merciful to me when the time comes because He promised it.

Perhaps if I hope for anything for myself, it’s that I won’t need much of His mercy when that happens. Living in this world, in the U.S. in this age, makes remaining focused on God difficult, there are so many distractions and distortions everywhere, even in the Church. This is where my faith helps me to remain strong.

You have a strong and beautiful faith that nourishes your life and thus benefits the whole world around you. I am happy for you, and happy to be in community with you.

I have a faith that does the same for me. I know my faith to be true, the same way you know yours to be true, and it nourishes me and allows me to benefit the world around me.

I think this is the purpose of religion. None of us can ever truly know the divine, the extent and true nature of it, but we can know enough of it to make a difference in the world around us.

I cannot unknow what I know. I cannot put the experiences and revelations of the divine, which have occured in my life away and instead follow your faith, the church’s faith or anyone elses faith. I must go with what has been revealed to me. I must live with integrity and honor the divine I have been blessed to know.

Catholics (you are not the only one) may see it as laying down a burden I was no longer willing to carry, but I see it as taking up something. Do you think it was easy to leave the church of my origin? The church my entire family is a part of? To move off into unexplored territory when everyone I knew and trusted told me I was hell bound? No, that is not easy. No, I haven’t jumped ship to live a life of debauchery. I left because the divine called me elsewhere, on a different path.

I can no more deny what I know than you can.

cheddar

 

[Philthy]

cheddarsox:

I am worshipping and praising the divine. It does not have to be humanlike, have a face or be a being to be worshipped or praised. People have praised the sun, the rain, beauty, all sorts of things without thinking those things had a personality. I praise that which makes it possible, I cannot definitively say what “that” is. I am not fully in understanding of it’s nature. But my response is, none the less, worship and praise.
cheddar

Im really not trying to argue with you or demean your beliefs in any way - honest. I don’t think God has a “face” like a human either, nor does the holy Spirit as far as I know. I guess my point was, have you ever considered why you feel the need to worship and praise something? That desire is something you might want to consider thoughtfully. It would seem to me that such a desire, if it is true, points to an entity capable of receiving your praise and adoration, no? If so, it is very easy to understand how some would be tempted to describe such an entity in personal, relationship-like terms. That does not mean we all must experience those particular characterizations or even agree with them. Of course all finite descriptions of the infinite reveal their own limitation more than revealing the object of their attention. And I don’t feel the need to go any further in attempting to apply visual or physical characteristics to that entity. You seem to think I do, or that you need to defend against me thinking you accept physical descriptions of God. I detect a consistent implication in your writings that perhaps you feel that all Christians must hold to some physical representation of God. They don’t, there are no official “images” of God - some people are simply more comfortable having a metaphor to hold on to. Perhaps we should seek out some congenitally blind Christians to hear how they describe God!? Maybe that would be more in synch with your terms…

Phil

 

[YinYangMom]

**Now, wouldn’t that be something! I would be condemned to hell because when I was a few days old someone else poured water over my head and said the magic words! **

That’s a good argument against baptism at birth, but for now, infant baptism is but the beginning of the journey.

If you did not receive the other sacraments (communion, confirmation)** and** you were not trained to do so (proper formation) then in the end you will be judged based on what you were given, and you will not be condemned to hell.

Besides, we’ve already ascertained that you recognize and live your life according to the Divine so you’re not on a terribly shaky road.

But if you were properly formed in the faith, received communion, made your confirmation and later in life, as an adult, walked away from Church teaching, then, yeah…your judgement will be harsher than under other circumstances. I still don’t believe you’ll be damned to hell, especially since there are so many people praying for your soul. But the fact of the matter would be that you were cognitive and mature enough at your confirmation to promise to God to continue on the Catholic path so you, yourself broke that promise. Just because you no longer acknowledge God, you did at the time of the promise and the promise still stands. You’re going back on your word and that has consequences, even within the design of your Divinity scenario, let alone ours.

 

[YinYangMom]

cheddarsox:

You have a strong and beautiful faith that nourishes your life and thus benefits the whole world around you. I am happy for you, and happy to be in community with you.

I have a faith that does the same for me. I know my faith to be true, the same way you know yours to be true, and it nourishes me and allows me to benefit the world around me.

I think this is the purpose of religion. None of us can ever truly know the divine, the extent and true nature of it, but we can know enough of it to make a difference in the world around us.

I cannot unknow what I know. I cannot put the experiences and revelations of the divine, which have occured in my life away and instead follow your faith, the church’s faith or anyone elses faith. I must go with what has been revealed to me. I must live with integrity and honor the divine I have been blessed to know.

Catholics (you are not the only one) may see it as laying down a burden I was no longer willing to carry, but I see it as taking up something. Do you think it was easy to leave the church of my origin? The church my entire family is a part of? To move off into unexplored territory when everyone I knew and trusted told me I was hell bound? No, that is not easy. No, I haven’t jumped ship to live a life of debauchery. I left because the divine called me elsewhere, on a different path.

I can no more deny what I know than you can.

cheddar

But isn’t it possible, that upon further reflection on all that has been revealed to you, that what has been revealed does indeed coincide with Catholicism? Couldn’t it be a matter of your not having yet reached the end of your journey? You think you’ve figured it out and that you have what you need to move forward, but if you reflect further, seek more information, you may be able see the whole picture. Since all information leads to the Truth and God is Truth, then further study of your beliefs in conjunction with Catholicism may bring you home.

Your revelations have proven to you that what you were taught about Catholicism was wrong. That is not the same as proving God does not exist, or that Catholicism itself is wrong. Thanks to the information age a lot more has been written and is accessible to you to find clarification. I honestly believe that if you visit the Vatican website to read some of the writings available there, and gave the Catechism a shot - along with the study of the bible (Jeff Cavins’ Great Adventure is the best way to read the bible, imo), and the Lee Strobel series of books (The Case for God, The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, and more), you’ll find there is more to your revelations than what you have so far.

You see, it’s not just a matter of faith. It’s a matter of Truth. Truth doesn’t change so where we’ve already agreed your Divine and our God are one in the same…why not find out what other pieces line up together?

 

[cheddarsox]

Philthy:

Im really not trying to argue with you or demean your beliefs in any way - honest. I don’t think God has a “face” like a human either, nor does the holy Spirit as far as I know. I guess my point was, have you ever considered why you feel the need to worship and praise something? That desire is something you might want to consider thoughtfully. It would seem to me that such a desire, if it is true, points to an entity capable of receiving your praise and adoration, no? If so, it is very easy to understand how some would be tempted to describe such an entity in personal, relationship-like terms. That does not mean we all must experience those particular characterizations or even agree with them. Of course all finite descriptions of the infinite reveal their own limitation more than revealing the object of their attention. And I don’t feel the need to go any further in attempting to apply visual or physical characteristics to that entity. You seem to think I do, or that you need to defend against me thinking you accept physical descriptions of God. I detect a consistent implication in your writings that perhaps you feel that all Christians must hold to some physical representation of God. They don’t, there are no official “images” of God - some people are simply more comfortable having a metaphor to hold on to. Perhaps we should seek out some congenitally blind Christians to hear how they describe God!? Maybe that would be more in synch with your terms…

Phil

I actually wasn’t thinking of physical images of God, as much as descriptions of God as a being with a personality and human characteristics, not eyes, nose, mouth, but anger, jealousy, father, etc. I know very few Christians who even attempt to physically describe God. Sorry if I implied you were doing that, it never even occured to me.

I have thought about my response of worship. It is not a desire, it is a response. I don’t think or feel “boy, wouldn’t it be great to have something to worship…” Rather, I experience or realize, or acknowledge something awesome, and boom, worship flows out of me, like a reflex reaction to divine greatness.

I also have rituals that I do, that are less spontaneous, to remind myself of the glory of the divine, and acknowlege the divine.

I have no idea if my worship makes any difference to the divine, if it receives it in some manner or not. It does me good to worship either way, it affects me, and since the divine is pervasive and in me…well, I guess that somehow that means it is affecting the divine, and those around me as well. It’s all connected.

Like I said, I never even cosidered the physical nature of god in any of my previous posts, I was speaking only to people’s concepts of the nature of god.

cheddar