Atheists: Why aren't you theists?

[Suat]

I’m curious, what would evidence for the supernatural look like?

You are the one who believes in the supernatural, why not you tell me? I do not know, although the earth stopping for a day would be pretty cool, no? Simply being something that cannot be explained by current knowledge of the natural world is not sufficient because our knowledge of the natural world is not complete. Instead, I would suggest something that goes entirely against, and is impossible according to our current understanding of natural.

As you say, we may never know. For example, quantum mechanics is very adamant that we will never know why any individual QM event chooses to happen or not happen. And regarding the origins of the universe, it may all remain forever a guessing game. After all, science depends on observation, and nature has put clear bounds on our ability to observe.

Yes, that is true, although string theory has some interesting ideas on the subject. I will wait until they can come up with a testable hypothesis before deciding though.

And yet you state without equivocation that you believe the supernatural does not exist. You are confident that this is the case, even though it is certainly unknowable today, and quite possibly unknowable forever. That still sounds an awful lot like faith to me.

I state without equivocation that there is no evidence for the supernatural. Does it exist? Possibly, but I put the likelihood of the existence of the supernatural on the same level as the existence of unicorns or leprechauns.

 

[Suat]

Just to clear this up in advance, this is not a comment addressed at what I think you believe, but this is the scariest statement of an Atheistic belief system I’ve ever read. (Perhaps I just have not been paying that much attention.)

Then we are equal, as I find that the theistic belief that there are no morals without God to be equally scary.

The “moral” conclusions that could come from these beliefs are frightening to me in a way that can only recall Hitler’s atrocities.

You are aware that Hitler professed himself to be Catholic and used the Bible to justify his atrocities, right? That said, Hitler was insane and probably would have used whatever he believed as justification. I appreciate if you would stop trying to portray him as an atheist and instead simply accept that he was insane.

A better world through chemistry and surgery would fit in just fine here.

What do you mean by that? Science has definitely made life different over the last several hundred years, chemistry and surgery are a part of that.

This particular animal apparently has something wrong with his brain (since he believes in God) so maybe we can cure that chemical imbalance. If not, we can just lop out that part of his brain and maybe he’ll forget his delusion and society will be better off.

Yikes.

I fail to see where I condoned doing this.

 

[Nick]

, I believed what I was told about the Catholic Church - things like the Church has never “officially” taught anything wrong. It has never changed it’s “official” teaching. The Bible is the true, inspired word of God - stuff like that.

But I grew older I found that many of those claims are simply not true.

Would you care to provide some evidence that the Church has changed official doctrine at any point in her history?

 

[Exalt]

Would you care to provide some evidence that the Church has changed official doctrine at any point in her history?

No matter what piece of evidence I bring to your attention, you’ll make some sort of excuse for it, as I did.

 

[Aleii]

Disclaimer: I post this with a bit of hesitation, as I am sure some will look at it and assume that I am mocking/thinking that all theists are dumb, or that I am arrogant or judgmental, or that the devil has me, or a number of other things. My problems stem more from religion than they do an idea of a God. In my view, if there is a God out there, then it is a highly uninvolved God, an idea which I am ok with. IMHO, the problems lie almost 100% with religion. I have already spent a great deal of time agonizing about this all, and this is a very quick version of my story and my thoughts, so that those who are interested in an atheists/agnostics views can be made aware, as per the OP’s request for reasons. I know I’m leaving out quite a lot of my reasons and segments of my faith journey but I’ve got things to do for my long-distance move!

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, the works. I began having some questions about it in grammar school where certain things about the faith just didn’t seem to fit. In high school, abuse began in the household, and I gave myself to God completely, intensifying prayer and private adoration. The abuse became significantly worse through, and the focus on me intensified to the point where I became fearful of serious injury. My prayers to God became more frantic but yet I never felt any comfort, and things only got worse. Before people jump on me about this, I know God does not answer all prayers in the way we want them to be answered. Feeling absolutely nothing from years of devoted prayer is only one part of many which led to me being a weak atheist/agnostic.

In college, I learned more in-depth about other religions, and saw the veneration in which their faithful worshiped and died for their faith. It clicked with me that there are thousands of religions out there, and for me to feel like I happened to be born in the right one just seemed arrogant, and I needed to apply the same set of criteria to Catholicism that I did to every other religion. Many stories in the Bible mirror stories from other faiths. Catholics talk about what is special in the religion, but I could find someone from other faiths who talk about what their religion has that makes theirs the true one to believe in. Every religion has its own special thing that makes it the “right” one.

More and more, I just could not make logical sense of Catholicism, and increasing my studies only worsened things. When I was little, I figured out on my own that there is no Santa. The stories of delivering toys did not make logical sense. I knew that there are people who do not receive gifts, for example the poor. I had heard “evidence” on the radio of santa-sightings and friends who had “found reindeer hoof-prints on the roof”. I had to learn how to discern that all “evidence”, especially eye witness accounts, had to be scrutinized and not just taken as fact. I look around at the world around me and see a multitude of religions. The only thing that I have available to me to determine which, if any, is the most correct, is to use my God-given head and look at all the facts and if things make sense to me. I simply can not just take some random person’s word that religion A is the correct choice and chose to believe it. God expects me to use my brain to question things to make sense of them. It frustrates me to no end when people tell me that I am judging God by asking questions, and should stop.

If God is supposed to be perfect and Catholicism is correct, IMHO the Bible should be much easier to interpret and the Church should have a much clearer view on the world we live in. While I think the Church has a lot of stuff figured out and has a lot of good thoughts, I would expect a lot more from the “correct” religion. God knew what the Bible would be like, how it would be interpreted, but the way it is written, gosh… I am simply horrified about some parts of the Bible, and what God supposedly commanded and the verbal gymnastics to explain those can be incredible. There are many issues that I have concerning the Bible.

It does not make sense to infinitely judge a person based on a finite amount of time on earth, when that person does not have clear instructions on what they are supposed to be doing on earth, especially since it is human to err. We are alone here. God is supposed to know all, therefore, what is the point in making us go through the suffering and trials on earth if the results are already known? I would find peaceful ways to instill knowledge of the hardships of war to my child instead of enlisting them, for example, and God has a much bigger arsenal of resources than I.

continued

 

[Aleii]

Psychology also helped me better understand why religions are created, and how they are spread. It makes a LOT of sense to me to understand how there are so many religions. It simply clicked to me that I needed to apply the same scrutiny to my religion, as I was doing to every other religion out there.
I simply can not accept that faith and good works are what lead you to heaven. It does not make a lick of sense to me! If I am a good person, devote myself to others, have knowledge of Catholicism and privately determine that it is most likely an incorrect religion, so I don’t follow it, I should not have even a remote threat of damnation that I did not, in my private mind, accept a religion for which I believe is no more likely than any other Greek, Asian, etc mythology. What is God’s purpose for requiring us to believe in him with scant evidence? It makes no sense. Respect and love, sure, but not worship and faith. A being of God’s power and glory should not need humans to praise it. God knows my heart. Hell is not a place I am scared of, even if I am wrong. A God that is in any manner just will judge me based on my life and its circumstances.
If there really is a God out there, God will judge me based on how I lived my life. If I am wrong and God does judge me on my lack of faith, then that does not make sense to me either, as I do not see my lack of faith as a choice.
For example, if I have a piece of red paper and one man tells me “this is a blue paper with black stripes”, and another man said “This is not a piece of paper at all, it is an orange” I would not be able to truthfully choose to believe either man. For me, with the information I have, my brain has come to the conclusion that that is a red piece of paper by definition and I would, by default(not by choice), reject both men. I can listen to both men’s reasons, but if neither makes sense to me, I can not truthfully choose to agree with them.

Likewise, I can not choose to alter my beliefs without some strong evidence that rationally convinces my brain that my reasoning up to this point has been wrong. I can go through the motions of going to church, praying, etc, but I would not have faith or acceptance in what is being preached. To me, it seems more logical that Christianity is made up than to believe that that one religion out of the many out there that is the whole truth. It feels as though God is giving me a multiple choice quiz.
#1.) What am I thinking right now? (which religion is correct?)
a.) puppy (religion 1)
b.) the number thirteen (religion 2)
c.) kitten (religion 3)
d.) aardvark (religion 4)
e.) circle (religion 5)
f.) magical brownies (religion 6)

and I’ve got people whispering to me “Pick the puppy! Who doesn’t like puppies?”, another who says “Well what about the kitten? Aren’t they cute too? That’s the right answer!” and another person saying “don’t pick 13, it’s a bad luck number!” and another person saying “pick aardvark, it’s the closest to the front in the dictionary”, and another saying “pick the circle, it symbolizes unity and eternity”, and another saying “what doesn’t magical brownies symbolize? Pick that!”, and another saying “No! If puppies eat magical brownies they could die, don’t pick that”. All good reasons, but which to pick? They all seem the same. The world is filled with conmen. I can not, in any good conscious, let myself be gullible enough to go by what any person tells me if I don’t have some good reason to believe them.

That’s how I feel about the world’s religions …and if I happen to be lucky and guess the right religion, then I’m saved. If not, then I’m screwed. What if I told you that actually, Zeus is the true God, and if you did not believe, I will go over to your house and chop off your arm. Do you honestly think you could right now choose to believe in Zeus? Is it justifiable to say that I should spend an eternity in torment simply because I could not make enough sense of the horribly confusing, cryptic, contradictory religious systems to be able to rationally accept Christianity as the truth? A majority of the world is not Christian. Why is it that Jesus came down to spread His word 2000 years ago but won’t come down now to gather up the rest of the world into Christianity’s arms so that others may be saved? I have heard it said over and over that there is enough evidence in the world to rationally chose Catholicism. I simply can not agree with that. Call me stupid if you will that I can’t come to that conclusion, even after 8 years of Catholic school, Catholic retreats, weekly mass, reading Catholic books, being surrounded by Catholics, etc.

continued

 

[Aleii]

Breaking apart from the Catholic church has been one of the most difficult things that I have had to do. It is not something I did overnight, it is not something I did with no thought/consideration, it is not something I wanted to do, its something that happened. It is not easy to think of this world as your only life, especially when you see some of the awful situations that some have to go through. It is not easy to think that God really isn’t there watching over you, protecting you. The world does make a lot more sense though, without God in the picture, and I have to go by what makes sense. Sure it would be fun/comforting to believe that unicorns exist, but its just not true. I make my own meaning in life, and have received comfort in knowledge that I am helping others through the work I do in the hospital, and that life is circular. I worked a few days ago and there was a code announcement on another floor. Not a minute later, the baby music played, indicating a birth.
God could easily have me repent and go back to being Catholic just by coming down and having a candid conversation with me, (or in other ways) but He does not. I spent over a decade going to retreats, praying, time in adoration, all in vain trying to reclaim the faith I had as a child that was slipping out of my grasp. I invite you to read iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552 if you haven’t, as this deconversion story mirrors a lot of what I feel my path has been like. That story is going to be considered controversial to some. But please don’t comment on it if you didn’t read most or all of it. The author works very hard to keep her faith from slipping, but it does. She is a very good writer and details a lot of her feelings and rationale, and is extremely well read.

If, after death, God would personally tell me about Jesus in a way that made perfect sense, that would be a different story and I would eagerly accept Jesus’ gift. Right now it simply does not make sense to me that that is even real, and I have a good understanding of the Catholic faith. There are far too many things that just simply don’t make sense about the faith, that should, were it real. I don’t think that anyone is opposed to love, nor the idea that they could be in paradise forever. Really, if someone had all the information laid out to them, who would chose hell?

I know there is still a lot to learn yet, and I see this as an ongoing lifelong learning process. I still have a big list of books that I need to read as well, once my life gets more settled down.

To head off potential responses: Yes I know I can be wrong, yes I know some might think I’m going to hell, but dismissive arguments or scare tactics don’t help my faith in God. Yes I know that some think “Gods ways are not our ways”, yes I know that some think “God can do what He wants” and that God is perfect and it is our understanding that is flawed, but I can’t accept that as reason why we should dismiss all the problems. Yes I did have complete trust and faith in God in my early life and when I prayed and was trying to strengthen my faith; atheism was something I was trying to avoid, and when the time came for me to say that I was agnostic, I had many sleepless nights trying to understand how to cope with that, I did not ‘chose’ agnosticism so that I could “do what I wanted with no consequences”. Yes, I am thankful for what I do have. No, I do not know how the universe was originally created. No, I do not fear death anymore. Yes, I think death is really the end.

 

[MerryAtheist]

Again, how is this not a faith-based statement?

Meaning?

 

[MerryAtheist]

Thanks, Aleii.

That was quite a story. In many ways, it sounds like you are still working it out and hoping for some great revelation. It was the same for me, but I got off that merry-go-round after getting dizzy from all the spinning ( ). I guess I just don’t have your level of patience.

Good luck to you.

 

[freesoulhope]

Thanks, Aleii.
but I got off that merry-go-round .

How do you know, that by taking on the faith “Im better off with out theism”, you have not decided to get onto the merry go round?

 

[MerryAtheist]

How do you know, that by taking on the faith “Im better off with out theism”, you have not decided to get onto the merry go round?

I’m no longer dizzy, for starters. Most things make sense in a rational, non-supernatural way, and the stuff that remains a mystery does so without any aura of magic or woo-woo. The awe I feel has more to do with the joy of discovery, curiosity at the unknown, and the majesty of nature (thunder storms, galaxies, Felix Hernandez’s slider, my wife’s laughter, a good beer now and then, and lovely, delicious bacon - mmmm, bacon).

Did I mention bacon?

 

[whatever]

I’m no longer dizzy, for starters. Most things make sense in a rational, non-supernatural way, and the stuff that remains a mystery does so without any aura of magic or woo-woo. The awe I feel has more to do with the joy of discovery, curiosity at the unknown, and the majesty of nature

As Dawkins put it, religion in the Einsteinian sense.

 

[MerryAtheist]

Oh, and I didn’t catch it in my first reading, but you cleverly slipped in the word “faith”. Like my atheism is a religion. I get it. Funny.

 

[VociMike]

Originally Posted by VociMike
Again, how is this not a faith-based statement?

You made the statement that believing in God is a delusion, but you have not demonstrated the truth of that statement. You have simply made an unprovable claim about the way the world works, and I’m asking how is that not a statement based on faith?

 

[freesoulhope]

Oh, and I didn’t catch it in my first reading, but you cleverly slipped in the word “faith”. Like my atheism is a religion. I get it. Funny.

One does not need to have religion to have faith. To not believe in God, is to “believe” that God does not exist. I say faith and belief, because there is no empiricle evidence that God does not exist. In light of this fact, non belief without evidence, is a belief. For example, If i say to somebody " mosters do not exist", I can only expect people to accept what im saying as a matter of faith. To think that, not giving your life to God, will have no negative effects on your life, is your faith at work.

To be an Athiest, you have to believe that the world is an infinite regress of cuases that produce finite things, or that the world poped out of nothing; it has no cause.

Both concepts are unreasonable when looked at closely, and both need a faith far more stronger the any theist; or maybe rather a resentment or carelesness?

Peace.

 

[MerryAtheist]

You made the statement that believing in God is a delusion, but you have not demonstrated the truth of that statement. You have simply made an unprovable claim about the way the world works, and I’m asking how is that not a statement based on faith?

Is this really the thread for this discussion? The original poster asked merely for responses to the question, not discussion.

Nevertheless I will oblige you…

Should we start with the definition of faith as “assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1)? If not, then we should define the term so we can better understand each other.

 

[freesoulhope]

Felix Hernandez’s slider,
Did I mention bacon?

You like watching sliders? Do you mean the tv program?

I like sliders to; especailly a nice slice of bacon. Yum yum!

 

[Suat]

I say faith and belief, because there is no empiricle evidence that God does not exist. In light of this fact, non belief without evidence, is a belief. Peace.

There is also no empirical evidence that fairies and unicorns do not exist or that or any other of the countless ludicrous ideas that mankind has thought up, yet few would say that lack of belief in them is taken on faith. Strangely enough, faith is defined as the belief in something that has no evidence for it, not the disbelief in something that has no evidence for it.

 

[freesoulhope]

Should we start with the definition of faith as “assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1)? If not, then we should define the term so we can better understand each other.

You name is Merry Atheist; a statement that leads me to think your atheism makes you happy, no?. I think you would hope God does not exist. This is backed up by the fact that you make unsupportable statments such as “God is a delusion”. You seem to have a confident faith that no faith in God, is nothing to be worrying about, and actually is quite healthy as apposed to “delusional”.

 

[MerryAtheist]

You like watching sliders? Do you mean the tv program?

I like sliders to; especailly a nice slice of bacon. Yum yum!

Felix Hernandez is a major league baseball pitcher. He throws a wicked fastball, slider, and several other pitches. He’ll be winning the Cy Young Award soon. Count on it.