Athiest Friend Looking For Book

[menofstjoseph]

I have a atheist friend who is an unconvinced seeker.

He tells me he would be willing to dig deeper into Christianity and Catholicism, but he can’t get past the lack of logical proof in God.

He has read Purpose Drive Life (yeah I know) and The Case For Christ, but was left unmoved. My friend says he struggles with “how to believe in something I can’t see, feel or touch”. He is an intellectual, engineer type who likes to rely on logic and reasoning.

I think he would like to believe but can’t find any foundational footing to begin his walk on.

What one single book, CD or other document would you suggest to I give to this friend to help make the foundational case for God?

 

[redhen]

I have a atheist friend who is an unconvinced seeker.

He tells me he would be willing to dig deeper into Christianity and Catholicism, but he can’t get past the lack of logical proof in God.

There’s several* logical *proofs; ontological, teleological, cosmological, etc., whether he would find them convincing or not, I don’t know.

He has read Purpose Drive Life (yeah I know)

never read it, sounds new agey

and The Case For Christ, but was left unmoved.

written by a lawyer, but the criteria in trial courts is different

My friend says he struggles with “how to believe in something I can’t see, feel or touch”. He is an intellectual, engineer type who likes to rely on logic and reasoning.

So if something can’t be seen or touched it’s not real? Is that his stance? How did he prove this claim, if that’s what he’s claiming? Certainly not by empirical methods, this sounds more like a philosophical claim, which shows this argument is self defeating.

I think he would like to believe but can’t find any foundational footing to begin his walk on.

What one single book, CD or other document would you suggest to I give to this friend to help make the foundational case for God?

Here’s an accessible and clear theologian talking about the scientism fallacy and other criticisms.

wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Father-Barron-Against-The-YouTube-Heresies.aspx

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Three suggestions:

• Beliefs of Catholics by Msgr. Ronald Knox
• Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
• Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli.

 

[menofstjoseph]

My friend is not anti-God. He is not an aggressive atheist and is not making any strong claims against the belief in God. Frankly, I get the sense he wants to believe but can’t get past square one. It seems he needs a push to get started, but the force he needs to begin his journey needs to be rooted in logic and reasoning.

He has never had any religious life. His parents were agnostic or atheistic, so he has never developed any of the foundational beliefs in God.

 

[menofstjoseph]

Three suggestions:

• Beliefs of Catholics by Msgr. Ronald Knox
• Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
• Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli.

For some reason Kreeft keeps coming to my mind as well, but wasn’t sure which of his books would fulfill my friends need for a logical argument for God best.

 

[Sunflake9]

Try this I was a former Agnostic after reading Thomas Aquinas First Mover, I really couldn’t explain any other way other than God.

The First Way: Argument from Motion

  Our senses prove that some things are in motion.

  Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.

  Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.

  Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).

  Therefore nothing can move itself.

  Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.

  The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.

Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

 

[StrawberryJam]

For some reason Kreeft keeps coming to my mind as well, but wasn’t sure which of his books would fulfill my friends need for a logical argument for God best.

Show him your life and how you live it, and love.

You have to start with square one. You are that square.

The topic of God can’t be read into without that foundation to begin with.

Just my two cents

 

[curlycool89]

My friend says he struggles with “how to believe in something I can’t see, feel or touch”. He is an intellectual, engineer type who likes to rely on logic and reasoning.

Ah, that type. As a friend of mine likes to say, “Learning can only bring them so far. That’s where grace comes in”. It’s something he’s not going to get right away, but you can’t just read and learn and get it. You have to think about it, pray about it, on a much deeper level than pure logic. They don’t call it a leap of faith for nothing. If he is truly seeking, then he will most likely eventually find. If his mind is completely closed to the idea, then he will never find nor understand.

That’s one of the things I saw pointed out for vocations on this forum. Someone pointed out that if people discerned marriage the same way some people were discerning the priesthood or religious life (lots of research and reading, but not going out to retreats or talking to spiritual directors) then nobody would ever get married. They’d just spend time researching married life and what a good spouse is like ect ect. If your friend just reads he will have a hard time finding God. God is alive and in the world, not something you can only read about like history gone past.

Us engineers can be good Catholics too though A couple friends of mine are good knowledgeable faithful Catholic engineers.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Ah, that type. As a friend of mine likes to say, “Learning can only bring them so far. That’s where grace comes in”. It’s something he’s not going to get right away, but you can’t just read and learn and get it. You have to think about it, pray about it, on a much deeper level than pure logic. They don’t call it a leap of faith for nothing. If he is truly seeking, then he will most likely eventually find. If his mind is completely closed to the idea, then he will never find nor understand.

That’s one of the things I saw pointed out for vocations on this forum. Someone pointed out that if people discerned marriage the same way some people were discerning the priesthood or religious life (lots of research and reading, but not going out to retreats or talking to spiritual directors) then nobody would ever get married. They’d just spend time researching married life and what a good spouse is like ect ect. If your friend just reads he will have a hard time finding God. God is alive and in the world, not something you can only read about like history gone past.

Us engineers can be good Catholics too though A couple friends of mine are good knowledgeable faithful Catholic engineers.

Frankly, I think the marriage analogy is truer than we’d like to admit. We’ve got a large subset of the twenty-something generation basically incapable of real-life interpersonal interaction, and who are deeply imbued in materialism. The two things are pretty obviously related. Materialism, by definition, denies the existence of love (which is inherently unprovable, and objectively undetectable to any senses). Those of us who know love (and know it as something far more than the simple product of chemicals telling us to tend to young or breed) know that materialism is a crock.

So unfortunately, we’re left with a lot of incomplete, emotionally deformed young people (particularly men) who see logic and nothing more. G.K. Chesterton described this as the characteristic of a madman in Orthodoxy.

 

[frindro]

Well, www.peterkreeft.com has a lot of writing and audio lectures that might be helpful. In particular, I think this contains many good arguments for God’s existence. It’s from Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Fr. Ronald Tacelli, SJ, which I see. If you want permission to distribute the web page, you’ll need permission from the publisher, according to the FAQs.

 

[Bussi]

My friend is not anti-God. He is not an aggressive atheist and is not making any strong claims against the belief in God. Frankly, I get the sense he wants to believe but can’t get past square one. It seems he needs a push to get started, but the force he needs to begin his journey needs to be rooted in logic and reasoning.

He has never had any religious life. His parents were agnostic or atheistic, so he has never developed any of the foundational beliefs in God.

If your friend is looking for logic and reasoning he can also try St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica at newadvent.org Questions 1-43

St. Thomas gives five different proofs of the existence /fact of God.

It is “heady” stuff and it takes a lot of study and thought to study the original work.

I started with the “Pocket Summa” in the early 1950’s and am now participating in a Drs. of the Church Study Group, We are currently using:

*“A Tour of the Summa: A Journey Through St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica,” by Msgr. Paul J. Glenn, Tan Books ISBN 978-0-89555-081-1
*
It has more detail than the “Pocket Summa,” and renders St. Thomas’ arguments in a shortened yet rigorously faithful form. The full “Summa Theologica” requires years of sustained effort to study it properly.

Finally, your friend is still going to be faced with that leap of faith we all must make. Stay close to your friend and encourage him in the pursuit of Truth Itself, God.

God Bless…Keep the faith:thumbsup:

Bussi

 

[FCEGM]

I have a atheist friend who is an unconvinced seeker.

He tells me he would be willing to dig deeper into Christianity and Catholicism, but he can’t get past the lack of logical proof in God.

He has read Purpose Drive Life (yeah I know) and The Case For Christ, but was left unmoved. My friend says he struggles with “how to believe in something I can’t see, feel or touch”. He is an intellectual, engineer type who likes to rely on logic and reasoning.

I think he would like to believe but can’t find any foundational footing to begin his walk on.

What one single book, CD or other document would you suggest to I give to this friend to help make the foundational case for God?

Fr. Thomas Dubay’s Faith and Certitude would be an excellent choice for your friend:

ignatius.com/Products/FC-P/faith-and-certitude.aspx

 

[crazzeto]

Another book worth recommending is Life After Death: The Evidence

Based on what it sounds like your friend is looking for, this seems like it would attempt to answer their questions most directly and in the most proper context.

 

[InternetWoman]

I love Peter Kreeft’s books but I’d like to add one more:

 "The Science Before Science: A Gide to thinking in the 21st Century"

It’ by Anthony Rizzi - who is a well respected physicist who solved an 80 year problem in Einstein’s theory. So perhaps your engineering friend would find his arguments convincing. Rizzi actually discusses the issue/problem of only believing what you can see/touch/taste, etc. It takes him 8 chapters - but he demonstrates, with almost mathematical precision, the reasonableness of believing in God.

 

[jmcrae]

My friend is not anti-God. He is not an aggressive atheist and is not making any strong claims against the belief in God. Frankly, I get the sense he wants to believe but can’t get past square one. It seems he needs a push to get started, but the force he needs to begin his journey needs to be rooted in logic and reasoning.

He has never had any religious life. His parents were agnostic or atheistic, so he has never developed any of the foundational beliefs in God.

In the “What is Faith?” pamphlet from the Ligouri RCIA series, it points out that we all believe in things we can’t see or prove.

For example, he knows what his name is. How does he know what his name is? He probably doesn’t go and look up his birth record every time someone calls to him - he is simply believing something that he is told.

He knows that he is loved. Love is something you can’t see or touch, and yet we all experience it every day.

When he is driving his car, he knows that, unless there is a serious problem with the car, putting the key in and turning the key will cause the car to start. He doesn’t need to know how or why that works, in order to be able to drive the car to his destination. In fact, unless there is a problem, he probably doesn’t even think about the mechanism involved.

Let him think up examples of his own, of things he “just knows” without having to know why or how he knows them.

Then, point out to him that belief in God does not require any more faith than any of these other things that he believes in every day.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

I would recomend anything by the Apostle of Common Sense, GK Chesterton. He has a great plertha of writings that speak on a complex, but simplistic level. I will pray for your friend.

 

[StrawberryJam]

In the “What is Faith?” pamphlet from the Ligouri RCIA series, it points out that we all believe in things we can’t see or prove.

For example, he knows what his name is. How does he know what his name is? He probably doesn’t go and look up his birth record every time someone calls to him - he is simply believing something that he is told.

He knows that he is loved. Love is something you can’t see or touch, and yet we all experience it every day.

When he is driving his car, he knows that, unless there is a serious problem with the car, putting the key in and turning the key will cause the car to start. He doesn’t need to know how or why that works, in order to be able to drive the car to his destination. In fact, unless there is a problem, he probably doesn’t even think about the mechanism involved.

Let him think up examples of his own, of things he “just knows” without having to know why or how he knows them.

Then, point out to him that belief in God does not require any more faith than any of these other things that he believes in every day.

I’m not sure what kind of life this person leads, but most people actually do have to access their personal identification on a fairly regular basis. Job seekers know they must have 3 forms of ID once accepted for a job, at least in the state I live in. We can think of many other normal situations in life where documentation of identity is required, except for when voting of course.

You ran out of gas on your car analogy. If all that matters is the destination and not the journey or the wonderment of the journey, then we don’t need to value thought at all on any level.

Belief in God does require more faith for some who care to ponder these and other things. As many believers tell me, “an eternity is a long time to be wrong”
My response is to take that seriously. I wish to consider the ramifications of an eternity of being “wrong”

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not sure what kind of life this person leads, but most people actually do have to access their personal identification on a fairly regular basis. Job seekers know they must have 3 forms of ID once accepted for a job, at least in the state I live in. We can think of many other normal situations in life where documentation of identity is required, except for when voting of course.

We have the documentation about the existence of God in the Scriptures, too.

If having something written down on fancy paper can be “proof” then we can say that the Scriptures are “proof.”

You ran out of gas on your car analogy. If all that matters is the destination and not the journey or the wonderment of the journey, then we don’t need to value thought at all on any level.

No idea what you’re driving at, here. My intent was to convey that you don’t need a journeyman’s certificate in auto mechanics, to trust that your car will start.

Belief in God does require more faith for some who care to ponder these and other things. As many believers tell me, “an eternity is a long time to be wrong”

About anything; not just about God.

 

[StrawberryJam]

We have the documentation about the existence of God in the Scriptures, too.

If having something written down on fancy paper can be “proof” then we can say that the Scriptures are “proof.”

No idea what you’re driving at, here. My intent was to convey that you don’t need a journeyman’s certificate in auto mechanics, to trust that your car will start.

About anything; not just about God.

Hello again jmcrae,

Sorry for being so abrupt, I was talking on the phone while typing here and trying to juggle items in and out of the oven.

I had to bold the part of your reply that got to me. Your sense of humour and timing is excellent I must say. I have no idea if you intended it to be that way, but I found it to be a great reply.

I still think the best “book” to give an atheist friend, is the “book” of their own life as I said earlier. It would be the best way to see the “hands and feet” of Christ in real time.

I’ve read a few of the books listed here, and while they may have a more positive effect on others, I can say that they are not one size fits all.

 

[jmcrae]

Hello again jmcrae,

Sorry for being so abrupt, I was talking on the phone while typing here and trying to juggle items in and out of the oven.

I had to bold the part of your reply that got to me. Your sense of humour and timing is excellent I must say. I have no idea if you intended it to be that way, but I found it to be a great reply.

:curtsey: I was reacting to the “ran out of gas” comment.

I still think the best “book” to give an atheist friend, is the “book” of their own life as I said earlier. It would be the best way to see the “hands and feet” of Christ in real time.

I’ve read a few of the books listed here, and while they may have a more positive effect on others, I can say that they are not one size fits all.

Right, I agree with that.

Books are good for helping you understand things that you are already open to believing, but no book can ever actually convince someone against his own point of view.