Athiest, how can you not believe in God?

[maryannashworth]

I have never claimed anything to the contrary

Oh, let me assure you that it does not work quite how you suppose I am indeed at peace: at peace with what I know, and with what I do not. I accept that there are some, perhaps many questions I will never know the answer to – and you know what? It doesn’t bother me. I don’t need to know everything. As a strong agnostic, I hold that the question of God is one such unknowable. But if God exists and wishes me to know he exists, he’s more than capable of letting me know!

One thing God doesn’t do is impose himself on you and if he does you will find that when he goes out of his way to do something special for you he expects something special but he might we’ll see.

But he says in the Gospel Seek and ye shall find meaning you must seek first. Ask and it shall be given you meaning you have to ask. Also it pictures Jesus standing at the door waiting for you to knock. It is kind of like the man on the roof waiting on God to rescue him while many things come by asking him to go with them he says no he’ll just wait on God to come. Finally when he died because he wasn’t saved from the disaster he asked God why he didn’t come to help him and God told him that he came with all those people in the helicopter, the boat, etc but the man wouldn’t go because he didn’t recognize that these were God speaking to him.

My uncle used to tell the story of a preacher coming to his house on the mountain and when he saw his garden and how good it was he told the man that God had blessed him with his beautfiul property and garden. The man said you should have saw it when God had it by himself. The thing the man didn’t realize was that God did give him the power to do all that he did but God expected him to use his gifts for his betterment.

Perhaps God is all around you trying to help you see him but you aren’t really seeking or looking. I pray that he will find a way to get through to you. You sound like a really nice person. A little self satisfied perhaps but nice none the less. mary ann

 

[ricmat]

Oh, let me assure you that it does not work quite how you suppose I am indeed at peace: at peace with what I know, and with what I do not. I accept that there are some, perhaps many questions I will never know the answer to – and you know what? It doesn’t bother me. I don’t need to know everything. As a strong agnostic, I hold that the question of God is one such unknowable. But if God exists and wishes me to know he exists, he’s more than capable of letting me know!

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I’m glad that it doesn’t bother you that there are some things you won’t ever know.

However, you state that God’s existence is unknowable, but that he’s capable of letting you know. This seems like a contradiction. If you genuinely are open to the knowability of God’s existence, then I suggest that you pray to God, and ask him to let you know the answer. You have nothing to lose. No God, no answer.

But as with any prayer, there are 4 possible answers - if God exists:

1. Yes
2. No (actually, if God tells you he doesn’t exist, then that presents a sort of paradox by itself…hmmmm…)
3. Not yet.
4. Yes, but in a way you don’t expect.

Peace be with you Mirdath. I don’t totally buy that your soul is at peace yet, else you wouldn’t hang around this forum arguing with all us religious dudes.]

 

[ricmat]

One thing God doesn’t do is impose himself on you and if he does you will find that when he goes out of his way to do something special for you he expects something special but he might we’ll see.

But he says in the Gospel Seek and ye shall find meaning you must seek first. Ask and it shall be given you meaning you have to ask. Also it pictures Jesus standing at the door waiting for you to knock. It is kind of like the man on the roof waiting on God to rescue him while many things come by asking him to go with them he says no he’ll just wait on God to come. Finally when he died because he wasn’t saved from the disaster he asked God why he didn’t come to help him and God told him that he came with all those people in the helicopter, the boat, etc but the man wouldn’t go because he didn’t recognize that these were God speaking to him.

My uncle used to tell the story of a preacher coming to his house on the mountain and when he saw his garden and how good it was he told the man that God had blessed him with his beautfiul property and garden. The man said you should have saw it when God had it by himself. The thing the man didn’t realize was that God did give him the power to do all that he did but God expected him to use his gifts for his betterment.

Perhaps God is all around you trying to help you see him but you aren’t really seeking or looking. I pray that he will find a way to get through to you. You sound like a really nice person. A little self satisfied perhaps but nice none the less. mary ann

Very nice thoughts Mary Ann.

And I like Mirdath too

 

[scottm]

my goodness, scott. youve said that more convincingly than a lot of atheists I met.

whats your religion?

Like I said, I’ve had the discussion MANY times. I can actually flip a switch in my head and think like an atheist, in their own words and from their own perspective.

But I’m a long-time Christian crossing many denominational boundaries. Think like a Baptist, think like a Lutheran, think like …

 

[scottm]

I think one of the hardest things an atheist or agnostic has to explain is an objective moral law. In fact I have yet to hear any explanation that actually will address this glaring deficiency in atheistic views.

Right and Wrong, Good and Evil how do you explain?

I don’t know why you think objective moral law has to be explained, or why it’s a deficiency.

Look at morality in respect to belief and non-belief in God.

**1. Can you name or cite a moral statement made or a moral action taken by a believer that could not have been made or done by a non-believer in God?

1. Can you name an immoral thing said or done that could only have been done by a believer in God?**

As to the first, no, I cannot. Maybe you can. As to the second, yes, I can, and so can you. The atheist rationally and naturally concludes from this that religion is entirely optional.

When it comes to doing good, yes religious people can be and are moral, but as a result of the tests above the atheist thinks that the theist is merely riding the coattails of secular morality. Conversely, when it comes to immoral things, the fact that there some things which can only be said or done by someone who believes in God that they have a divine warrant or command to do such-and-such (examples: genital mutilation, Holy Wars, the Inquisition, burning of witches, scarring a child’s mind with threats of hell, etc.) means that religion is NOT the source of ultimate morality.

For an atheist.

Now beat that, amigo.

 

[Mirdath]

Perhaps God is all around you trying to help you see him but you aren’t really seeking or looking. I pray that he will find a way to get through to you. You sound like a really nice person. A little self satisfied perhaps but nice none the less. mary ann

No, I’m not really looking anymore. I searched for years and found nothing. There comes a point when fruitless effort becomes more trouble than it’s worth, you know? I have no reason to think that I am even capable of having faith in a deity who refuses to come out of hiding. Maybe I’m just not wired the way you are – who knows?

And thank you for the compliment, however backhanded

ricmat:

I’m glad that it doesn’t bother you that there are some things you won’t ever know.

However, you state that God’s existence is unknowable, but that he’s capable of letting you know. This seems like a contradiction. If you genuinely are open to the knowability of God’s existence, then I suggest that you pray to God, and ask him to let you know the answer. You have nothing to lose. No God, no answer.

It isn’t a contradiction: God is unreachable through human faculties, but God, being, after all, God, is not so limited. If God decided to let me put my hand in his side as he allowed Thomas, I would come to know – but I would not be the party responsible for that knowledge.

And I have indeed tried praying. Not so much recently, though not long ago I took another theist up on a dare to pray once a day for three weeks. Nothing happened.

Peace be with you Mirdath. I don’t totally buy that your soul is at peace yet, else you wouldn’t hang around this forum arguing with all us religious dudes.]

And also with you I debate because it’s fun (and because trying to argue with people with whom I agree wholeheartedly is boring as all get out), not because of any searing inner want. Plus, sometimes you all need a little reminder not to let yourselves get complacent, and hey, free target practice

scottm:

Now beat that, amigo.

Nice going! :clapping:

See guys? We can get along!

 

[ricmat]

It isn’t a contradiction: God is unreachable through human faculties, but God, being, after all, God, is not so limited. If God decided to let me put my hand in his side as he allowed Thomas, I would come to know – but I would not be the party responsible for that knowledge.

And I have indeed tried praying. Not so much recently, though not long ago I took another theist up on a dare to pray once a day for three weeks. Nothing happened.

To Mary Ann’s point, are you sure that you’re not the guy on the roof telling the helicopter to go away because God is going to save him? Which also relates to my point #4.

Have you ever tried a religious (Catholic) retreat? Time away from the world and its distractions. Even if God doesn’t speak to you, you’d come back refreshed.

I think God has plans for you…in a good way.

PS - regarding a retreat, if you perhaps live within driving distance of NW Pennsylvania, there’s a wonderful place I can recommend…

 

[Mirdath]

To Mary Ann’s point, are you sure that you’re not the guy on the roof telling the helicopter to go away because God is going to save him? Which also relates to my point #4.

If I am, the helicopter appears to be one of those little six-inch-long remote control jobs. It’s not that I don’t appreciate the sentiment, but telling me ‘believe!’ is not going to make me, in fact, believe. You cannot give me faith in God, and I can’t come up with it myself. That does not leave many options.

Have you ever tried a religious (Catholic) retreat? Time away from the world and its distractions. Even if God doesn’t speak to you, you’d come back refreshed.

I think God has plans for you…in a good way.

PS - regarding a retreat, if you perhaps live within driving distance of NW Pennsylvania, there’s a wonderful place I can recommend…

I’ve been on one or two, a long time ago (camping sucks, by the way! ). And I’ve been on a couple of pilgrimages.

Really, I’m the kind of person this usually isn’t supposed to happen to. I was homeschooled by my devout Catholic family, went to daily Mass and more or less monthly Confession, grew up reading much of the early fathers and Catholic philosophers, griped about modern liturgical abuses, the evils of the world, and the liberal media with the best of them, served at the altar for years – and then, gradually and painfully, came to the realization that this wasn’t actually what I espoused. I’d grown up in it, had fulfilled what was expected of me by my family and parish, no more than that.

So, I got the floor pulled out from under me and ended up a skeptic anyway. It isn’t the fault of any external influence; it seems closer to the truth to say that I am wired differently from Joe Theist. Joe can believe in something he has not seen; I cannot. And I can accept that. I’m in pretty good company, actually – although the apostle Thomas was rebuked by Jesus himself and called ‘doubter’, his attitude is the one I admire most. And do not forget, he was the first to say ‘my Lord and my God’.

 

[Nepenthe]

I do not know, but maybe it would help if I were more open about the internal emotional states of someone who has never had religion.

When Mirdath was, apparently, losing Faith, I did not see this as anything like an opportunity to ‘convert’ someone. I have never had a faith to lose, but I do know it hurts very much, and can drive people to terrible suffering and even suicide. Heck, in the ‘never-ending thread’ concerning “Will We Survive Religion” I made my very first appearance on this board, since I was worried that Valke2 just might be losing his faith, though I know that may sound absurd. (Yes I was hijacking Mirdath’s account, but I didn’t know if I had anything much to say on my own behalf, and I admit, I am nervous and shy around theists, and with some reason as I posted in Apologetics earlier today.)

I tried to encourage reconsideration and reconciliation, and we often talked long into the night over apologetics and thought-problems concerning God, Gods, and religion in general, and it was not always Mirdath taking the argumentative side of disbelief. Eventually, I realized Mirdath’s crisis of faith went too deep for me to halt or slow, since I know nothing of theistic faith – but I do know a fair amount about human honor and love and hope.

So I took recourse to what I could possibly do. I tried to show Mirdath that, no matter what, I would be there to help in whatever capacity I could, including leaving the scene if I was detrimental. I would catch my best friend, my sibling, and never let loneliness or despair overwhelm that wonderful heart and mind, come what may. This was well before we realized our love went beyond the platonic, I might add. And somehow, Mirdath was whole and well after that frightening time – and then, some time later, we decided to never leave each others’ side.

But I would be there for anyone who was in pain over their faith in their religion – not to lead them away, but to try to help them return – and to help them if they do not find religion an option anymore, so they may not despair of themselves nor despair of the world we live in. I cannot fall in such love with them as I have with Mirdath, but I would and will love them as a well-intentioned and kindly fellow human. Nontheists know gratitude, compassion, and even humility perhaps better than some realize!

Long and anecdotal, I know! But I am no ‘convert to atheism’ (technically I am a ‘strong’ agnostic/‘weak’ atheist, mind you!) nor have I ever sought to convert anyone away from their faith and their community – quite the opposite. I refuse to lie about my point of view, but I do not attempt to force it on anyone about such a matter. It matters not a whittle to me how people arrive at those decisions and practices that make them good neighbors and friends; it matters only that they are, in fact, friends and neighbors, even in potentia.

 

[love4mary]

I am by no means as smart as most on this forum, but it was Through LOGIC that I found God.

I could, while an Atheist, argue that life started as a single cell growing and evolving from the primordial ooze and that That cell came from the depth of space after the Big Bang. It was finally through Logic (and a gentle nudge from our Lady whom God sent to help me i’m sure) that I realized that that pesky little cell had to have been created somewhere in space, and that the gas from the Big Bang had to been created, they could not just exist. And not to mention,Where did the Primordial Ooze come from?

Logical conclusion! There just Has to be a God. A Creator of all things from the beginning.

Does any atheist have a better idea as to how it all started and from where did it originate?

 

[scottm]

I am by no means as smart as most on this forum, but it was Through LOGIC that I found God.

I could, while an Atheist, argue that life started as a single cell growing and evolving from the primordial ooze and that That cell came from the depth of space after the Big Bang. It was finally through Logic (and a gentle nudge from our Lady whom God sent to help me i’m sure) that I realized that that pesky little cell had to have been created somewhere in space, and that the gas from the Big Bang had to been created, they could not just exist. And not to mention,Where did the Primordial Ooze come from?

Logical conclusion! There just Has to be a God. A Creator of all things from the beginning.

Does any atheist have a better idea as to how it all started and from where did it originate?

They’ll ask, “Where’d God come from?”
From their point of view, if they have to explain how matter always was, then you have to explain how God always was. It’s really not an answer for you to say, “God just is!” They’ll say, “Matter just is! And matter is simpler than God! Therefore, by Occam’s Razor I win!”

Speaking for myself now and not for atheists, I’ll tell you what works for me. The resurrection works for me. If Jesus died and rose again, then there is a God. Period. Done. And Christianity is the correct religion. If instead Jesus did not both die and rise again, then either (a) there is no God at all, or (b) Christianity is wrong. In both situations I should stop being a Christian and get off this forum.

I believe that there is ample evidence of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Atheists are free to disagree with me, and they must disagree with to remain atheist, but I strongly believe they are wrong on this one point. Everything else that I believe comes out of my belief in the resurrection of Jesus, including objective morality, objective capital-T “Truth”, and all of my theology. Everything begins with the resurrection.

And if you want Bible verses on this, have another look at Peter’s sermon in Acts 2 and at Paul’s summary in 1 Cor 15:1-15. It was all about the death and resurrection to those guys too.

 

[maryannashworth]

I don’t know why you think objective moral law has to be explained, or why it’s a deficiency.

Look at morality in respect to belief and non-belief in God.

**1. Can you name or cite a moral statement made or a moral action taken by a believer that could not have been made or done by a non-believer in God?

1. Can you name an immoral thing said or done that could only have been done by a believer in God?**

As to the first, no, I cannot. Maybe you can. As to the second, yes, I can, and so can you. The atheist rationally and naturally concludes from this that religion is entirely optional.

When it comes to doing good, yes religious people can be and are moral, but as a result of the tests above the atheist thinks that the theist is merely riding the coattails of secular morality. Conversely, when it comes to immoral things, the fact that there some things which can only be said or done by someone who believes in God that they have a divine warrant or command to do such-and-such (examples: genital mutilation, Holy Wars, the Inquisition, burning of witches, scarring a child’s mind with threats of hell, etc.) means that religion is NOT the source of ultimate morality.

For an atheist.

Now beat that, amigo.

There are things about God that is above us and we could not know without his revelation and sealed with miracles. Don’t get so comfortable that you don’t care to look. That’s about like saying you don’t respect Christians who are Christians because their parents zre. Surely you can do better than that.
About circumcision I am not sure why that was a command. Holy wars can be good. If we had not defended ourselves against Islam the world might be all Islam and we wouldn’t be having tis discussion, the inqusition was like capital punishment and we may find that what we have today is worse and less needed. Read Joan of Arc by Mark Twain. He does a real good job of showing the crookedness of some and yet the demands that the trial be by strict rules. Of course like all laws people can subvert them. The witches were a way of dealing with what they thought was the supernatural working through people at the time of belief in fairies, etc, No body should threaten hell without relief but the danger of hell. Somehow even children have to be taught right and wrong and few parents want their children to go to hell. Hell is real and they should learn about it. The thing about refusing to believe in these things is if they are true what have you done to escape the loss of heaven. Good luck. I have gained a lot of experience from having this conversation and I really enjoy a good debate. By the way the other writer I was trying to think of was Chesterton. Tolkien is great but not as straight forward. Got company this weekend and going to enjoy watching the Florida and U.T. game. We do somethings besides pray and worship but it is nice to know Jesus is there with us even then. mary ann

 

[maryannashworth]

I don’t know why you think objective moral law has to be explained, or why it’s a deficiency.

Look at morality in respect to belief and non-belief in God.

**1. Can you name or cite a moral statement made or a moral action taken by a believer that could not have been made or done by a non-believer in God?

1. Can you name an immoral thing said or done that could only have been done by a believer in God?**

As to the first, no, I cannot. Maybe you can. As to the second, yes, I can, and so can you. The atheist rationally and naturally concludes from this that religion is entirely optional.

When it comes to doing good, yes religious people can be and are moral, but as a result of the tests above the atheist thinks that the theist is merely riding the coattails of secular morality. Conversely, when it comes to immoral things, the fact that there some things which can only be said or done by someone who believes in God that they have a divine warrant or command to do such-and-such (examples: genital mutilation, Holy Wars, the Inquisition, burning of witches, scarring a child’s mind with threats of hell, etc.) means that religion is NOT the source of ultimate morality.

For an atheist.

Now beat that, amigo.

There are things about God that is above us and we could not know without his revelation and sealed with miracles. Don’t get so comfortable that you don’t care to look. That’s about like saying you don’t respect Christians who are Christians because their parents zre. Surely you can do better than that.
About circumcision I am not sure why that was a command. Holy wars can be good. If we had not defended ourselves against Islam the world might be all Islam and we wouldn’t be having tis discussion, the inqusition was like capital punishment and we may find that what we have today is worse and less needed. Read Joan of Arc by Mark Twain. He does a real good job of showing the crookedness of some and yet the demands that the trial be by strict rules. Of course like all laws people can subvert them. The witches were a way of dealing with what they thought was the supernatural working through people at the time of belief in fairies, etc, No body should threaten hell without relief but the danger of hell. Somehow even children have to be taught right and wrong and few parents want their children to go to hell. Hell is real and they should learn about it. The thing about refusing to believe in these things is if they are true what have you done to escape the loss of heaven. Good luck. I have gained a lot of experience from having this conversation and I really enjoy a good debate. By the way the other writer I was trying to think of was Chesterton. Tolkien is great but not as straight forward. Got company this weekend and going to enjoy watching the Florida and U.T. game. We do somethings besides pray and worship but it is nice to know Jesus is there with us even then. mary ann

 

[ricmat]

If I am, the helicopter appears to be one of those little six-inch-long remote control jobs. It’s not that I don’t appreciate the sentiment, but telling me ‘believe!’ is not going to make me, in fact, believe. You cannot give me faith in God, and I can’t come up with it myself. That does not leave many options.

I’ve been on one or two, a long time ago (camping sucks, by the way! ). And I’ve been on a couple of pilgrimages.

6 inch helicopter -

But…if it is God’s 6 inch helicopter, it has a lot more power than it might seem to have. Perhaps you should have grabbed the rope and seen what happened

Retreat - I wasn’t thinking so much of the happy clappy campfire sort of retreat. I was thinking of going to a serene place, with a good religious library, and someone to tell your story to. They’d point you in what they think is a good direction, and then leave you alone to ponder. Perhaps they would pray with you, if you requested. If you think of what is possibly at stake, it would be a good investment of your time. Although perhaps that’s what you did on your pilgrimages.

 

[ricmat]

this wasn’t actually what I espoused

. I’d grown up in it, had fulfilled what was expected of me by my family and parish, no more than that.

Joe can believe in something he has not seen; I cannot. And I can accept that. I’m in pretty good company, actually – although the apostle Thomas was rebuked by Jesus himself and called ‘doubter’, his attitude is the one I admire most. And do not forget, he was the first to say ‘my Lord and my God’.

You are indeed in very good company. Perhaps the reason I take so much interest in you is that my daughter is perhaps an atheist. She’s a physics major in college now, and at this point in time is very anti-religious. We raised her Catholic, but probably not to the extent you were. The more I try to “convert” her, the more anti-religious she gets. So I back off, which pains me to no end because I love her deeply and don’t want her to permanently reject God.

Her problem since age 2 is “authority”. She doesn’t want people (or God) telling her what to do. She puts more stake in what her friends tell her than what her parents, grandparents, and other adults tell her. At age 4 she was upset that we weren’t treating her as an adult. This issue of Authority seems to drive many people away from religion in general, the Catholic Church in particular, and ultimately God.

Perhaps my thinking is that if I can’t save her, I’ll try for somebody else. In any case, if I come across as too strong sometimes, just tell me to back off.

 

[Mirdath]

6 inch helicopter -

They’re terrific fun, actually – a coworker brought one into the office a while back. I’m surprised it still flew after the way we banged it into desks, walls, the ceiling, the floor, trashcans, other people… of course, it was pretty erratic to begin with

But…if it is God’s 6 inch helicopter, it has a lot more power than it might seem to have. Perhaps you should have grabbed the rope and seen what happened

I didn’t just wake up one day and say ‘you know, I really don’t believe this’. It took a year or more, and even after that I still attended Mass with my family until I left – admittedly rather quickly – for college. I kept on reading and thinking it over, and the only conclusion I could draw was ‘welp, guess not’.

You are indeed in very good company. Perhaps the reason I take so much interest in you is that my daughter is perhaps an atheist. She’s a physics major in college now, and at this point in time is very anti-religious. We raised her Catholic, but probably not to the extent you were. The more I try to “convert” her, the more anti-religious she gets. So I back off, which pains me to no end because I love her deeply and don’t want her to permanently reject God.

Yeah, the rule of ‘don’t proselytize anyone who doesn’t want it’ goes double for family. All it’ll do is make her resent religion – and, more to the point, you – even more (and yes, this is personal experience talking). There isn’t really much you can do directly; faith is a very personal thing, and as far as I can tell either you have it or you don’t. So, look to the example of St Monica (and since you have faith, her intercession too – might as well ).

 

[love4mary]

Scottm, to address what you said about the Resurrection being the most convincing reason that God exists, Today I would whole heartily agree with you. But when the revelation first hit me that God DOES exist, I had not at that point and time even read scripture EVER. All that was still very foreign to me.

Since my conversion, I read the bible on a daily basis.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This question has been burning in me for sometime now.
How could you not believe in God?

I mean, how do you explain not only how human life begun, but where do you think we get our feelings, thoughts, ideas etc from?
.
Granted, nature is pretty clever, but not clever enough to not only invent ‘humans’, but millions of other species of life onto one planet.
If there was no God, where do all these things come from?
I just cant understand it, please try and explain it to me.

A person who does not believe in God lacks faith, trusts only their own reasoning, and finds faith to be utterly unreasonable.

 

[maryannashworth]

A person who does not believe in God lacks faith, trusts only their own reasoning, and finds faith to be utterly unreasonable.

It seems to me that to believe in a super intelligent prime cause is much more reasonable than to believe that the earth created itself somehow. In either case it takes faith but the first one seems much more reasonable to me. I’m sure someone has to have faith in some near impossible story to believe the world made itself. We have faith that china is some where on the planet why. Because lots of people tell us. Lots of people believe in God in fact most scientist even the ones that claim evolution they just don’t seem to believe in a God that does much or says much. Hey that’s pretty easy because then we can believe what we want. God has allowed many strange things but believing in a God who does all these marvelous things makes a lot of sense to me just thinking rationally. It just makes more sense. That is one thing Pope Benedict said is that God rules are rational as much as we can understand. I heard a story the other day. I don’t remember where but it was about an atheist that went to Lourdes just to see if God would heal a cut finger or anything. The lady atheist saw more than that she saw a woman with her face half eaten away come out healed with new skin. She turned away and said she refused to see it or believe. I am sure if you saw something like that you would believe or would you think something in the water did it. Who knows? Some people do need miracles and that is why God gave us miracles. Jesus said if you can’t believe in me believe in the miracles that I do. Miracles are still happening today some more obvious than others. mary ann Lots of love.

 

[ricmat]

Yeah, the rule of ‘don’t proselytize anyone who doesn’t want it’ goes double for family.

I know what you’re saying Mirdath, but we have different responsibilities to our children.

Someday you may have your own children, Mirdath. You will be responsible for their physical welfare, as well as their spiritual welfare.

If your child is about to run in front of a car, and he/she is so obstinate that they often do exactly the opposite of what you say - then do you say “Don’t run in front of that car!” or do you say “Run in front of that car.” Or do you say nothing?

If you say “run in front of the car” banking on the obstinacy, or you say nothing, and your child gets killed by the car, could you live with yourself? Probably not.

If you say “Don’t run in front of the car!” and they do it anyway, your child would still be dead, but you tried to prevent it. This would still be difficult to accept, but not as bad as above.

If you say “Well, parents shouldn’t be telling their kids what to do (or even making suggestions)” then…well, you’re just like my daughter

By the way, I used the simple example of the young child and a car, but I think the general theme can be extended to drugs, alcohol, sex outside marriage, etc, and things of spiritual concern.