Athiests/ Non-Christians- Is "Merry Christmas" offensive

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Unfortunately some folks do see a problem with it when that approach is tried, to the extent of vandalism and threats
buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/227095.html
wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=53604
I find hope in this situation. The fact that both symbols of religious celebration were removed is important. People begin to see that religion can be celebrated but it is best kept out of government. Many people have never read the First Amendment to the Constitution, the establishment clause. The think is says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of ** a **religion. This is not true. Here is what it says.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

There is no “a” in the clause. It means the government cannot make a law that establishes religion per se. Allowing religious displays on government property does take a resolution by the governing authority at the very least. This is equivalent to “making a law”.

Let’s keep government out of religion. Governments change sometimes for the better, sometimes for the detriment of the public good. When the American people understand that religious freedom depends upon government being neutral towards religion, I think these controversies will be a thing of the past.
 
I agree. I have myself said “Merry Christmas” to Christians, though I have yet to find a Christian issue a religiously-appropriate greeting in return…their response is usually “I am disappointed in you” or “we need to talk.” I just want to exchange greetings; I don’t want to be converted. :eek:
If I know that you are of another faith and that you have a significant holiday coming up I’ll certainly honour you with an approriate greeting and be respectful of your customs.

Within reason of course - I’m not going to pray to gods I don’t believe in or offer animal sacrifice or anything. Not that I’m saying you do, although some faiths out there do.

Nor would I attempt to convert you. What I might do is spend time talking to you to make sure I had a decent understanding of your faith. And then perhaps invite you to come to Mass with me or something. That’s about all.
 
I do believe strongly in the separation of Church and State and resent attempts to undermine it. People should be free to worship who and how they please, including Christians, without pushing or endorsing any particular religion. That was, after all, why the early colonists fled Europe.

For that reason, I don’t support displays of the Decalogue in or on government property unless all religions are equally included, and that, obviously, would create chaos. I am against vandalism (as I hope we all are), either on behalf of or against the expression of belief. This must apply to all religions equally. Such vandalism is also undertaken by Christians. On August 28, 2006 the Regina Leader-Post reported vandalism to Qajartalik, a petroglyph site near Quebec. Police suspected a religiously motivated attack by devout Christians from a nearby Inuit community. The same sort of thing took place frequently in the Roman Empire, particularly after the accession of Constantine.

We must all do what we can to encourage polite discourse.
 
Lily, I appreciate your enlightened attitude. I once had a coworker talk frequently about her beliefs (she was from a local Bible college) but when I expressed my own, she said “we’re not going to talk about this.” Apparently, what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander. The difference is, of course, the she *was *trying to convert me, whereas I was only trying to express to her the differences in our beliefs.

I would never expect a non-Heathen (I prefer that term to the more modern “Ásatrú”) to participate in Heathen rituals. It is enough that we allow each other our beliefs though I would invite you to be present as an observer. If I went to a church as a guest I would not be disruptive and I would not expect a Christian at a Heathen ritual to hiss as the ancient Christians did, or mumble prayers and so forth, as some Christians I know would. That would be disrespectful. When I was married, my mother-in-law had to be excluded from the wedding because she maintained her right to do just this. (She also maintains her right to secretly baptize my son, to pray over him - not silently- and to try to convert him to her brand of Christianity [Assemblies of God]. Obviously, she will never get to babysit him on a Saturday night into Sunday).

As for animal sacrifice, I though I do not myself practice it, I do maintain my rights to engage in it. For the most part, incense suffices, though I also make offerings of food or libations on the household stall (altar) for the Gods or the *dísir *(household spirits) or outside to the land wights (landvættir).

Prayer has become an issue at family gatherings, because my wife’s family insists on loud prayers rather than silent prayers while declining us the opportunity to ask Thor to hallow our meal.
If I know that you are of another faith and that you have a significant holiday coming up I’ll certainly honour you with an approriate greeting and be respectful of your customs.

Within reason of course - I’m not going to pray to gods I don’t believe in or offer animal sacrifice or anything. Not that I’m saying you do, although some faiths out there do.

Nor would I attempt to convert you. What I might do is spend time talking to you to make sure I had a decent understanding of your faith. And then perhaps invite you to come to Mass with me or something. That’s about all.
 
In the words of Krusty the Klown (or some random person who writes for the Simpsons):

"HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS!,

A HAPPY HANNUKAH!,

A KWAZY KWANZA!,

A TIP TOP TET!,

AND A SOLEMN AND RESPECTFUL RAMADAN!,

AND NOW HERE’S TO MY GODS – THE SPONSORS!"

Enjoy your winter solstice!
 
Lily, I appreciate your enlightened attitude. I once had a coworker talk frequently about her beliefs (she was from a local Bible college) but when I expressed my own, she said “we’re not going to talk about this.” Apparently, what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander. The difference is, of course, the she *was *trying to convert me, whereas I was only trying to express to her the differences in our beliefs.

I would never expect a non-Heathen (I prefer that term to the more modern “Ásatrú”) to participate in Heathen rituals. It is enough that we allow each other our beliefs though I would invite you to be present as an observer. If I went to a church as a guest I would not be disruptive and I would not expect a Christian at a Heathen ritual to hiss as the ancient Christians did, or mumble prayers and so forth, as some Christians I know would. That would be disrespectful. When I was married, my mother-in-law had to be excluded from the wedding because she maintained her right to do just this. (She also maintains her right to secretly baptize my son, to pray over him - not silently- and to try to convert him to her brand of Christianity [Assemblies of God]. Obviously, she will never get to babysit him on a Saturday night into Sunday).

As for animal sacrifice, I though I do not myself practice it, I do maintain my rights to engage in it. For the most part, incense suffices, though I also make offerings of food or libations on the household stall (altar) for the Gods or the *dísir *(household spirits) or outside to the land wights (landvættir).

Prayer has become an issue at family gatherings, because my wife’s family insists on loud prayers rather than silent prayers while declining us the opportunity to ask Thor to hallow our meal.
It’s always difficult though - I have members of my family who are devout new-ageish agnostics (but a mishmash, not of any one particular faith or practice) and would probably poke fun at me (albeit in a more gentle way) if I said aloud a prayer before a meal - possibly even if insisted on going to Mass (even by myself) on Sunday if I was staying with them.

If I were in your position with the AOG mother-in-law, unfortunately I’d probably lose my temper and say ‘go ahead, as long as I also can initiate my son and all your other grandchildren into MY faith - fair is fair after all!’
 
Prayer has become an issue at family gatherings, because my wife’s family insists on loud prayers rather than silent prayers while declining us the opportunity to ask Thor to hallow our meal.
We have a similar issue in that my parents are former AoG, Southern Baptist, etc now very Calvinist Presbyterian (back to the way I was raised). We basically stand or sit quietly during before meal prayers at family gatherings as an means of respect to my parents as our elders and their beliefs. We have taught our daughter to do the same (she’s 7) and that she can say a prayer to Hestia silently (or to Athena, her Patron).

We explained that we are doing this out of our attempts to follow the virtues of hospitality (acting as a good guest), of wisdom (having known my father for a long time and his level of openness to anything other than his form of Christianity;) ) and moderation (fitting actions to appropriate levels in our view). There would simply be nothing other than hard feelings and a disruption of my daughter’s relationship with her grandparents to be gained by pushing this particular issue. They know we do not follow their beliefs, though they do not want to know any particulars and will avoid any hint of a religious occasion of ours (won’t come to daughter’s play at the UU church, for instance, refused to come to her naming ceremony, etc). Since they do not come to our home for meals or really at all (I believe they are worried about having to actually see evidence that we are not Christian), it has not been an issue when at our home.

Due to my stepmother’s health issues they have not been in a position to babysit her in situations that would be problematic anyway, so that issue has not arisen. Things have become a bit easier in this realm for us as she has gotten older and is now at a point of being able to really understand that her grandparents have a different belief system than we do and that she is not compelled to follow it just because they do. She is also gaining an appreciation as well as that it would only hurt their feelings to talk about religion with them because they believe that their religion is the only possible way (something she views as fundamentally odd). We simply nod and go on. She is also able to differentiate between us behaving in this way with my parents and the way we behave (much more openly) in other situations.

Our relationship is much different and more open with my sister and her family, who have a very different attitude. They know more detail. Admittedly, it’s one of “I think you’re weird, but I still love you and want to be around you” but that is likely the best I’m going to get.🙂

Religious identity can get a bit interesting raising a child in a minority religion, despite one’s best efforts. When she was 5, she became very angry when I said to someone that we were not Christian. “We are too Christian!” she said. I replied that no, we weren’t and she knew that. The response was “Yes we are. Daddy believes in Buddha!”😛 I stepped up the comparative religious education a bit at that point.😊
 
We explained that we are doing this out of our attempts to follow the virtues of hospitality (acting as a good guest), of wisdom (having known my father for a long time and his level of openness to anything other than his form of Christianity;) ) and moderation (fitting actions to appropriate levels in our view). There would simply be nothing other than hard feelings and a disruption of my daughter’s relationship with her grandparents to be gained by pushing this particular issue…

She is also gaining an appreciation as well as that it would only hurt their feelings to talk about religion with them… She is also able to differentiate between us behaving in this way with my parents and the way we behave (much more openly) in other situations.

Religious identity can get a bit interesting raising a child in a minority religion, despite one’s best efforts.
The respect that you show your parents is wonderful and is a model of behaviour that you child will incorporate into her life.

You mentioned that your husband is a Buddhist. This is what the Buddhist said about the duties of children to their parents.
"In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:
(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed
relatives.9
The sutta doesn’t require belief in the family traditions, just respect.
 
Karen,

I agree, it is not easy. There is so much exposure to the Christian religion in whatever form it appears locally (and they seem to be myriad). I was brought up Lutheran (Lutheran Church of America, now the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) and we didn’t go in much for spreading our beliefs around. Unfortunately, the AOG is the opposite and my mother-in-law really needs to start some form of sisterhood in the AOG because her family matters very little to her in comparison to her beliefs. I don’t see the situation improving much and I regret her not being able to spend as much time with her grandson, but then it’s her choice, not mine. She was given the chance to back down and simply agree to respect our beliefs (we were respecting hers anyway) but she refused to forgo trying to turn him into a Christian.

Home schooling might be in the future. Right now he is going to speech therapy at a public school and there has been some talk about Christmas in class but nothing worrisome, so far as I can tell.
 
The respect that you show your parents is wonderful and is a model of behaviour that you child will incorporate into her life.
Not easy frequently, given that my father and I are pretty diametrically opposed on most issues, but something we strive for and seem to have come to at least an uneasy balance on in the time we see each other (usually due to my not bringing up subjects:) ). He basically confines his attempts to reconvert me to emails, which I can more easily ignore.

It does mean that we have to be more vigilant, especially around holidays when there are family gatherings. The mindset of most of the family is illustrated by the fact that they were lauding the behavior of a stepnephew who was having problems in kindergarten for going to school and telling the other (Christian) children that they were going to hell for being the wrong kind of Christian.🤷
You mentioned that your husband is a Buddhist. This is what the Buddhist said about the duties of children to their parents. The sutta doesn’t require belief in the family traditions, just respect.
He’s actually not officially Buddhist, we’re both Hellenic, but has studied Buddhism and finds a lot of value in many teachings both from Buddhism and Shinto. In search of physical religious community, we attend a UU church where the minister is Buddhist, so she has had a fair amount of exposure to Buddhism as well.

It’s an interesting aspect to honoring one’s ancestors and heritage (which are part of my religious tradition) when those are so tied up with a religion in which one cannot believe. It is something I have struggled with, particularly when it comes to things like holidays, especially Christmas. My mother died when I was a teenager and one of the things that was very important to her and our family was Christmas. Not necessarily in the religious aspects, though she was Christian and we did go to church every time the doors opened (and more), but in all the “trappings”—lights, decorations, baking, getting together with family. We gathered with several generations of family each year (my grandparents, great-grandmother, aunts, uncles, cousins, great-aunts/uncles, etc).

Although my daughter doesn’t have all those sorts of relationships (most of the older members of my family died before she was born and the younger ones moved away–a hazard of having a child relatively late in life), we work to pass on the stories and traditions. As we decorate our tree, we talk about the “why” of each ornament—the crocheted “snowflake” made from a tablecloth her great-great-grandmother made, the little plastic star that hung on her great-grandmother’s tree, the spun glass angel I gave her grandmother, the ones that symbolize our heritage or beliefs in some way. We talk about the things our families did when we were growing up, make connections, etc.

The fact that she does not have that complex web of close family relationships with extended family in which I grew up makes me even more reluctanct to knowingly or intentionally be the cause of any rift between her and her grandparents unnecessarily. It’s a rift that is highly likely to occur if I am confrontational about my beliefs. They have chosen in the past to do things like declare my sister dead to them for not adequately following their form of Christian teaching (they got over it eventually and she is much more gracious than I in willing to forgive and forget), refuse to attend weddings and other family occasions if they disagree with something, etc.

I can give her a sense of belonging to the land (my family has been in this immediate area for close to 250 years–I have ancestors from the 1700s buried in a cemetery in a park adjacent to our subdivision) and a sense of the history of those that have gone before (genealogy is a spiritual practice for me), but she also needs the actual relationship with those of her family that are living if I can reasonably provide that. If in the case of my side of the family that requires me to bite my tongue a bit on a regular basis, I am willing to do so to a large extent as long as it does not negatively affect my daughter.

Note that that does not include allowing them to covertly proselytize her, baptize her or tell her that we are all going to hell. I have drawn the lines in the sand fairly plainly on those issues. Blessings over food and a certain amount of Jesus talk I can deal with. So far, so good.😉
 
I agree, it is not easy. There is so much exposure to the Christian religion in whatever form it appears locally (and they seem to be myriad).
That’s certainly the case in our area 🙂 . When the local newspaper gives away Bibles, lists the daily prayer and verse on the second page and the mayor lists one of his three main goals for his tenure as his (Christian) prayer breakfast…
Unfortunately, the AOG is the opposite and my mother-in-law really needs to start some form of sisterhood in the AOG because her family matters very little to her in comparison to her beliefs.
Understood.
I don’t see the situation improving much and I regret her not being able to spend as much time with her grandson, but then it’s her choice, not mine. She was given the chance to back down and simply agree to respect our beliefs (we were respecting hers anyway) but she refused to forgo trying to turn him into a Christian.
I am lucky we have been able to come to a somewhat uneasy truce, though my parents push the limits on a semi-regular basis. The “Resurrection Eggs” that were covertly brought out at Easter lunch, for instance, while I was washing dishes and my husband had fallen asleep in the chair. We will be leaving before the egg hunt next year.
Home schooling might be in the future. Right now he is going to speech therapy at a public school and there has been some talk about Christmas in class but nothing worrisome, so far as I can tell.
We’ve homeschooled for three years now (began more for academic than religious reasons) and really enjoy it. We were very fortunate to find a truly inclusive homeschool support group, one in which we have Buddhists, Christians, agnostics, atheists, Pagans, etc. and we don’t feel we have to either hide or trumpet our beliefs. That’s rare in our area of the country, as it is more common to have to sign a statement of belief that reflects a very literal Protestant understanding of Christianity to join or be in a leadership position. By contrast, I was very open from the get-go that we were Neopagan, and I am now a Board member.

Her Brownie troop meets in an elementary school. The halls are currently lined with reindeer, Santas, elves, wreaths with bows, examples of the math pages counting how many ornaments on the tree, how many cookies Santa ate, adding up reindeer, etc, along with a sprinkling of snowmen and snowflakes. Haven’t seen any Nativity scenes yet.

Last year we did have to bow out of a 4H activity. 4H is by it’s own bylaws a secular organization, funded by the state. Her group was one based around community service. One of the activities that the leader chose was to go Christmas caroling to a nursing home. Now the leader was someone who knew us, knew we were not Christian, someone with whom I had had multiple conversations about our choosing 4H specifically because it was secular, so I was surprised when she chose songs that were very confessionally Christian rather than some of the alternatives that are about Christmas. At that point, I chose to bow out of the performance, as I was not comfortable with my daughter doing that at her age. I sent the leader a note explaining why we were doing this and she was very understanding and apologetic. It was not through any ulterior motive that she had picked those, just that it did not occur to her that it might be an issue for anyone. I think I phrased it as “if you as a devout Christian would not be uncomfortable having your child of this age singing the equivalent words about Islam, I am not likely to have a problem with my child singing them about Christianity.” 😉

Now, as my daughter matures, it will become less an issue, I believe, as she will be able to view things like such music as a performance, like a role in a play, rather than a specific expression of her beliefs. I have seen a shift in maturity level in this area over the past year.
 
That’s too bad about the 4H activity. I can understand not realizing that some songs and/or lyrics might be offensive to some. Certainly though, since Judaism is far more common than Paganism (even Islam is becoming so) people ought to begin to show more awareness about these things, especially in what is supposed to be a secular organization. I’m sure Jews and Muslims are no more eager to sing about Jesus as God than are Pagans.

I do like “seasonal” music. Some of it is quite beautiful. I play guitar and sing and there is a Christmas song by John Denver I enjoy singing, “A Baby Just Like You” which refers to “a savior king was born this day, a baby just like you” but I prefer to imagine in my head while I’m singing that it’s a reference to Mithras, whose birthday December 25th originally is.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of holiday music out there for Pagans and I’m certainly not the one who is going to rectify the problem. The closest I can come is listening to “Edda” by Sequentia, or to some of the stuff by Loreena McKennitt, much of which is very Pagan in feel and in inspiration. The best music of all though is to be found in my backyard, in the little area I am turning into a sacred space, where I can listen to the birds and the wind rattling the leaves or whistling through the branches.
 
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