Athiests: What do you do when....

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AnAtheist

I will never understand this attitude. We do live, isn’t that meaning enough? And the shorter we live the more valueable life gets.

When something means something we signify that it is directed toward an end. The atheist model of the universe excludes direction. Nothing means anything. Everything appears by accident, not by direction, and apparently that includes the universe. If the universe, then everything in it is also meaningless. Everything is pure accident. Albert Camus rightly concluded that from such a model of the universe, the only real conclusion to draw is:

Why should we all not commit suicide and be done with the pain of anticipating our eventual nothingness?

He was right, of course. Atheism offers no hope whatever, and is arrogantly cynical toward all offers of hope. 😉
 
JRKH said:
A more proper translation of the 5th commandment is, “thou shalt not commit murder”. The Bible, just like modern Law, provides for instances where killing is justifiable. While I have not looked into the Jerimiah verse, it appears this was in connection with war. Even our modern, enlightened morals allow for killing in war. That said I do see what you mean. It would be much easier for you if these things were not in there.
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I have a very black and white view about killing. I don’t accept collatoral damage of non combatants in war time. I don’t accept that my interests take precedence over other people’s. Sure, I want money as much as the next person, but not at the expense of everyone else.

I don’t see why weapons of mass destruction should be used to ensure that I have more rights than someone living three thousand miles South South East of me does, just because people have drawn imginary lines all over the World.
Just as an aside, and placing “God” in more general terms. If we reject the bible as the true and unalterable word of God, does this negate God? or the possibility of God?
Or rather does it only nagate one description of God?
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Peace
James
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I would say that latter. The context put on God in the bible is a human context. He designs, he creates, he’s loving, he’s forgiving, vengeance is his… All of these characteristics and limitations are human ones.

That might not seem surprising, if we are created in his image.

That said, I am against invigilation of my life by Government or other powerful human interests. I am not keen on authority or being dictated to. Explaining God in human terms gives God human limitations.
 
jinminn

I’m glad to see you’ve changed your designation from “Catholic” to “not Catholic.” It was extremely troubling to read a Catholic’s defense of atheism. :rolleyes:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
AnAtheist

I will never understand this attitude. We do live, isn’t that meaning enough? And the shorter we live the more valueable life gets.

When something means something we signify that it is directed toward an end. The atheist model of the universe excludes direction. Nothing means anything. Everything appears by accident, not by direction, and apparently that includes the universe. If the universe, then everything in it is also meaningless. Everything is pure accident. Albert Camus rightly concluded that from such a model of the universe, the only real conclusion to draw is:

Why should we all not commit suicide and be done with the pain of anticipating our eventual nothingness?

He was right, of course. Atheism offers no hope whatever, and is arrogantly cynical toward all offers of hope. 😉
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Because our eventual nothingness is not painful and not something to be despised?

No intelligent analysis of the Universe would ever lead one to believe that “everything is pure accident”. The Universe functions according to rules. What I personally, as an atheist, reject is the assertion that answers must be found by looking to the supernatural rather than by analytical investigation based on observation.
 
jinminn

Indeed – here we reach an impasse. I look with reason and note that we would never accept a present-day individual’s testimony that he killed in the name of god. We accept that testimony of individuals back then. You’re defense is essentially circular: I believe god is all good and can do no wrong → he instructed the Israelites to kill nonbelievers for the sake of unbelief or for land → this was not wrong → why? → because I believe god is all good and can do no wrong.

It only seems circular to you because you have reduced God to being subject to his own laws. God has the power to give life, and to take it away. If God needs a nation to be destroyed, and commands its destruction, that is God’s prerogative. God has judged it and sentenced it for its sins. We humans do that every day in our courts, handing out justice for crimes against humanity as at the Nuremberg trials. Punishments are meant to fit the crimes. Only God knows when it is time for a whole nation, or cities like Sodom and Gomorrah, to go into the pit.

It is for God to command, and for the angels and for us to obey. We are not hostage to the devil.

Atheists have no say in the matter, though I would expect them to be on the side of the ungodly as opposed to the godly. :rolleyes:

The time that wholesale slaughter is wrong is when men take it upon themselves to kill one another for selfish motives, or for revenge, or for some other human design.
 
*No intelligent analysis of the Universe would ever lead one to believe that “everything is pure accident”. **The Universe functions according to rules. **What I personally, as an atheist, reject is the assertion that answers must be found by looking to the supernatural rather than by analytical investigation based on observation. *

In all human affairs we assume that where rules exist, there is a rule giver. For some inexplicable reason, that does not apply to the universe? Why?

Why isn’t the universe sheer chaos instead of orderly ruled?

An accident?
 
I assume no such thing. That assumption is unwarranted.

Please give an example of a human affair where rules exist and there is no rule giver. :rolleyes:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
I assume no such thing. That assumption is unwarranted.

Please give an example of a human affair where rules exist and there is no rule giver. :rolleyes:
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Rule.

If I drink too much tonight, I’ll have a hangover tomorrow.

There is no rule giver because there is no need for one.
 
Moonstruck

*Rule.

If I drink too much tonight, I’ll have a hangover tomorrow.

There is no rule giver because there is no need for one. *

There is a rule: Stupid actions have harsh consequences. That rule was designed by nature. How did nature get it? By accident?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
In all human affairs we assume that where rules exist, there is a rule giver. For some inexplicable reason, that does not apply to the universe? Why?
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Because you’re confusing proscriptive rules with descriptive rules.

The rules you’re talking about (that have a “rule giver”) are proscriptive: like the speed limit on the highway.

The “rules” of the universe are descriptive: they describe the way that matter and energy naturally behave. Matter and energy doesn’t choose to “follow” the laws of the universe in the way that we do when we drive, for example – it just does what it does. The “laws” of the universe are our way of describing the way that the universe works.
Why isn’t the universe sheer chaos instead of orderly ruled?
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Well, because Cthulhu created it that way, obviously.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Moonstruck

*Rule.

If I drink too much tonight, I’ll have a hangover tomorrow.

There is no rule giver because there is no need for one. *

There is a rule: Stupid actions have harsh consequences. That rule was designed by nature. How did nature get it? By accident?
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I never said there was no rule. I said there was no rule giver.

That rule was not designed by nature. It simply is a fact of life. If I drop my mobile phone it’ll fall at 32 feet per second per second. Always. Everytime. That’s not because someone decided it should be that way, it’s just the way the fundamental forces in the Universe operate.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
When something means something we signify that it is directed toward an end.
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Not true – this is yet another elementary mistake.

There is a kind of “meaing” that signifies “purpose in some grand scheme” – in this sense, my taking classes has “meaning” only in relation to graduation, etc.

There is another kind of meaning that signifies “having significance to an individual for its own sake.” I could just as easily audit a class because I’m interested in a subject, simply for the pure joy of taking the class – in this sense, my taking the class has a meaning in and of itself.

Our lives have meaing – to us – in and of themselves. It matters not that there’s no sky daddy waiting to hand out candy when we die. We’re alive right now, and there’s nothing “meaningless” – in the second sense – about enjoying, for example, a night out with family and friends for its own sake.

I honestly feel a little sorry for people who can’t enjoy things unless there’s some sort of magical “transcendent” meaning waiting for them.
 
I too feel sorry for people who only find meaning in life through their belief in the existence of an invisible supernatural Deity.

I’m also troubled by those who figure that without a God, there’s no reason to live, so we should just kill oursleves. Such a view…how utterly tragic and very sad.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
It only seems circular to you because you have reduced God to being subject to his own laws. God has the power to give life, and to take it away.
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Why don’t you just say it outright: “might makes right”, and stop the rationalizations? God has the “big stick”, and whatever he says - goes. If God orders genocide, then genocide is “good”. If God decides to kill everyone, that is his prerogative. After all: “might makes right!”. Let’s not beat around the bush here… the guy with the biggest stick is always right. Better suck up to him, because the big stick is there to beat the living daylight out of you, if you don’t.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
moonstruck
  • Originally Posted by Charlemagne II View Post
    Einstein did not believe in God…*
You are citing your own words, not mine. Einstein did believe in God and went out of his way to repudiate atheism on several occasions, as did Jefferson, Paine, Lincoln, Voltaire, and many others who found no evidence to support the atheist position, though that has never stopped atheists from parading them as atheists.
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Voltaire was an atheist. Here’s a little snippet about Voltaire on Wikipedia.

When asked on his deathbed by a priest to renounce the devil and turn to God, he is alleged to have replied, “For God’s sake, let me die in peace.”
Because of his well-known criticism of the church, which he had refused to retract before his death, Voltaire was denied a Christian burial
 
Hello again! 🙂
Zatzat said:
I too feel sorry for people who only find meaning in life through their belief in the existence of an invisible supernatural Deity.

I’m also troubled by those who figure that without a God, there’s no reason to live, so we should just kill oursleves. Such a view…how utterly tragic and very sad.
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I have to tell you I don’t usually go on threads like this, and yesterday I felt inspired to say something. Now I worry that saying anything more would be wrong because I don’t wish to confuse anybody. I’m trusting in our Lord to give me the right words…I wish to help, not discourage.

You say you are troubled by us thinking there is no reason to live without God. That is true. Without the very One who made this life, and gave His life, we wouldn’t have life. So it seems very appropriate to say that without Him, no life or reason to live.

Yesterday I mentioned Love is God and God is Love. Many of you disagreed, of course–you don’t want Him to be added into the discussion and that makes sense. But you are here, thank God! You chose CAF because you have questions and you want understanding. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You help me in my spiritual journey by coming here. 👍

Anyway, we tried to get down to the “why” of God being Love and vice versa. I couldn’t get across to you and I’m sorry for that. I will keep praying for you; that does not stop. I am not of much use in an atheist’s debate (if you couldn’t tell). 🙂 I am better witnessing to fellow Catholics or Christians…this just isn’t my arena.

God’s peace and blessings to you Zatzat, Moonstruck888, AntiTheist–and all of you. I know you are searching…you are good souls. There is One who knows your heart very well and wants to make Himself known to you for the first time or perhaps again. When you feel a void in your life or deep suffering that no other human being can touch, turn to Him. He’s always with you.
+JMJ, Therese
 
lil_flower_luv said:
God’s peace and blessings to you Zatzat, Moonstruck888, AntiTheist–and all of you. I know you are searching…you are good souls. There is One who knows your heart very well and wants to make Himself known to you for the first time or perhaps again. When you feel a void in your life or deep suffering that no other human being can touch, turn to Him. He’s always with you.
+JMJ, Therese
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Bless you Therese… x
 
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lil_flower_luv:
I have to tell you I don’t usually go on threads like this, and yesterday I felt inspired to say something. Now I worry that saying anything more would be wrong because I don’t wish to confuse anybody. I’m trusting in our Lord to give me the right words…I wish to help, not discourage.
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I try not to be to overly in people faces about it either so sorry if I punched any buttons yesterdday. 🙂
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lil_flower_luv:
You say you are troubled by us thinking there is no reason to live without God. That is true. Without the very One who made this life, and gave His life, we wouldn’t have life. So it seems very appropriate to say that without Him, no life or reason to live.
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That’s just it also, I can’t even fathom thinking like that. From my perspective the only reason I’m here is because my parents got busy one night. Nothing supernatural about that. 🙂
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lil_flower_luv:
Yesterday I mentioned Love is God and God is Love. Many of you disagreed, of course–you don’t want Him to be added into the discussion and that makes sense. But you are here, thank God! You chose CAF because you have questions and you want understanding. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You help me in my spiritual journey by coming here.
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If I’m being honest with myself I just like the debate. Do I have questions about the universe we live in? Sure everyone does, is there anything supernatural about it? Nope.
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lil_flower_luv:
Anyway, we tried to get down to the “why” of God being Love and vice versa. I couldn’t get across to you and I’m sorry for that. I will keep praying for you; that does not stop. I am not of much use in an atheist’s debate (if you couldn’t tell). I am better witnessing to fellow Catholics or Christians…this just isn’t my arena.
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I have to admit I tend to get insulted when people say they’ll pray for me. I know this sounds rude but let me explain myself first. People pray to give thanks or to correct a wrong. Stop the war, stop the killing, catch the criminal, show this person the light, heal my brother or sister from cancer, etc. Except for sitting down to meals, it’s been my experience from talking to people that generally they pray when they see something wrong with someone or in the world. In this sense I kind of take it as I’m wrong because I believe something different.

This started when I “came out of the closet” about being an atheist to my aunt who is an extremely religious person. She immediately started crying and swore she’d pray for me every night before she went inside as if I was somehow broken because I lacked her beliefs. Not that I really care all that much what anyone else thinks of me whether it’s anger, sadness, pitty, whatever but it really makes you feel like a lepper and unwanted in a certain sense.

It doesn’t matter on these boards because everyone is pretty anonymous but when people do that to my face it really gets you on an emotional level, especially family, all over something like religion.
 
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