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Moonstruck888
Guest
So, if we fail to bet on the right horse in a fixed race, we should suffer an infinite punishment for a finite misdemeanour?
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mo2169
Guest
God knows your heart.
Visible proof isn’t everything to Him.
We aren’t talking about a man here. The teachings/scriptures are clear when it states that God is the “Almighty” - The one who knows it all, sees it all, etc.etc…
He created humans - look how far we’ve progressed.
Have human ever created anything that progressed him/her self?
Sorry for the lack of proof here - just my experiences and leanings through the Bible/Religious books.
God bless…
J
jinminn
Guest
Alright, let’s just walk through this nice and slow. It’s easy to write out a bunch of catechesis without thinking through it too much…
The correct answer would be ‘Yes’ – if any of what you said is false, Christianity is false.
Given that, what we need is falsifiability. What claims would you accept which would disprove Christianity to you? In other words, if I could produce evidence contradictory to any of your above claims, would you reject Christianity? If not, why not?
How are we to verify that this is 100% accurate? If any portion of it is not accurate, all is lost. Do you agree? Yes or no?
The correct answer would be ‘Yes’ – if any of what you said is false, Christianity is false.
Given that, what we need is falsifiability. What claims would you accept which would disprove Christianity to you? In other words, if I could produce evidence contradictory to any of your above claims, would you reject Christianity? If not, why not?
I’m sorry, but this fails…
- God is unchanging. He is the immortal rule giver. If the standards back then do not apply today, when we also need updates on the 10 commandments, the beatitudes, and the antitheses (from the Sermon on the Mount in the form of 'You have heard it said that… but I say to you that…).
— In other words, if a negative occurrence was acceptable then, but not now due to changing historical standards of good and bad, why is a positive standard still to be considered positive today? Apparently these things can change and we need to make sure we’re really following god’s will.
— In another way, for god, saying ‘x is permissible/impermissible’ must be so for all time. I cannot think of an action, especially one that involves hurting animals/humans, that would be true/false at one point in time and then have the opposite value at another point in time. This violates the very nature of ‘objective and universal moral value’ which are said to come from god and god alone.
— Do you disagree? If so, why? - The action actually does mean something and therefore it is about the action, not just the meaning behind it
— I apparently can’t do all kinds of sexual things because the meaning behind them is love. No matter what I say about my actions, if they violate heterosexual rulings, pre-marital practices, or even the Church’s prescriptions for practices in marriage… I’m violating a law. Meaning really doesn’t matter – it’s matching actions with practices.
— Therefore, if god were to kill an innocent because of a deeper meaning, it still wouldn’t matter. An innocent person died.
— Simple thought experiment: this is like me driving along in my car and seeing a paralytic laying in one of the lanes. I can drive in one of two lanes; each will get me to my destination (god could have driving in any number of lanes, for example, to reach his end destination of freeing the human race from sin). I choose to drive over the paralytic, though, because I believe that putting him out of his misery has a significant meaning and therefore am justified. I could have easily chosen a different lane: I am in control of my vehicle and also saw my options clearly (paralleling god’s omnipotence and omniscience). I chose in full control and knowledge to choose a path in which I killed an innocent on the way to my destination.
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jinminn
Guest
This doesn’t seem to answer the point. The point is:
- The human capacity for knowledge and choosing/willing is finite
- The punishment for unbelief is infinite
Regardless of whether you take Genesis literally or figuratively, you’ll still come up with a finite crime since by nature we are finite and capable of only finite deeds of finite culpability. How can this warrant infinite punishment?
Even take the very roots of this discussion: does god exist? I realize that those who never hear the message or infants are thought to have a chance at heaven. What about me? I simply sought after the truth and have been unconvinced by Christianity since that quest began. Am I guilty of infinite torture and pain because I didn’t ‘get it’?
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mo2169
Guest
Absolutely not. Humans don’t have the intelligence to grasp the infinite wisdom that is God. Faith of God on earth through the Holy Spirit is the reason .
(as you can see, all my answers will be based on teachings not physical evidence proven by man)
How can God be unchanging? You mentioned an example of one of His changes.
The 10 Commandments. Did He not come to Earth Himself (through Jesus) and gave the Commandment “Love one another as I have Loved You” ? - Did He not heal on the Sabbath (which at the time was a no-no) ? That’s 2 changes in his Commandments…
How about the overall Book of Job - Isn’t that about God not needing approval of His Creation - his overall freedom over His Creation? Job suffers but is compensated for sticking with God - Does this reoccur? He changes this type of action with Love (in Jesus) teaching that change for the best is not through wars (like in the past) but within you.
If I believe in Salvation, it’s pretty clear to me that I’m here on earth to please He who is my Father - therefore my wishes are his wishes. I will then try my best - with all the goodness in my heart to please Him. This will lead me to a better life.
When you say you cannot do this or that I understand - it’s unfortunate.
But as a believer, I must put God in front of any of my wishes. Try to be as unselfish as I can be.
You must view death as a negative. I was taught to view death as Salvation.
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God Bless…
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stephe1987
Guest
People who say God is “plotting against us” or “evil” are completely missing the point.
- God, being perfect, could have chosen to make us all robots who worship Him and follow his every command. But He wanted to create humans, not robots. Humans are not perfect and have free will.
- With this free will, humans are allowed to choose good, or they can choose to sin.
- Satan chose to sin. He became arrogant, thought he knew better than God, and should be his own master and gain his own followers to worship him (or at least turn them away from God). Some examples: convince people God doesn’t exist so they don’t have to obey His laws, convince them to distort God’s laws by going to war “in the name of God” even though the Bible very clearly says not to kill, love thy neighbor, etc.
- God is allowing Satan or “sin” to run free in the world for the time being. Satan believes he can turn everyone against God and so become the new master of the universe or whatever, but God knows better.
- By allowing Satan to run the world, humans are actually becoming better people and smarter as a species! Diseases teach us more about science and medicine, and how our bodies work. People who lose a limb give us ideas on how to create fake limbs, that are attached to and can be controlled by the brain. There has been a very successful experiment on this using a monkey with its real arms and legs tied down, yet it can still move the false arms and legs. Natural disasters and poverty give us the opportunity to show we are good (and deserve a place in Heaven), and also allow us to come together and make friends with and learn from people from different parts of the world.
- The point of the blood sacrifices is a test of faith. Are you willing to give the thing you hold most dear to God? So people would sacrifice their favorite animal for God, and Abraham was tested to see if he would give his long-awaited son if God told him to. Notice that God did not actually make him kill his son. The ultimate display of love is to sacrifice your life in place of someone you love, and that is exactly what Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) did. God loves us.
- The Old Testament is not intended to be a book on science, but is instead meant to teach people the nature of God, lessons in life, etc. The fact that the Earth was actually created over billions of years does not negate anything, since the Old Testament is symbolic and is intended to teach us the NATURE of God. The “days” merely represent stages of creation. After all, the Bible wouldn’t have lasted this long if it were a book on science. Humans in the OT times were not as advanced as we are now, and the Bible would have gotten ignored and lost over time if God wrote something about a “Big Bang”. It would be like trying to explain calculus to a five-year-old.
- When you die, you are given a preliminary judgment on whether or not you are fit to go to Heaven. You go to Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. On Judgment Day, a final decision will be made on whether you should go to Heaven (be with God) or Hell (permanently separated from God). Yes, our lives are finite, and that is why God in his infinite mercy will forgive anything as long as you are TRULY sorry and repent for your sins. If you do not, you are choosing a life away from Him in hell.
- The nature of hell is a very sad feeling that you chose to be away from God; your soul was intended to be with God, so it will be sad and you will feel lost and lonely. There is also a fire thats intensity is determined on how grave one’s sins were. If you were a mass murderer, the fire will be great. If you simply chose to live without God or to ignore Him, the fire will be very mild.
- The existence of God is simple. We live in a universe that is expanding and was (according to most recent scientific theory) created by a Big Bang. The Big Bang had to be started from something, since natural laws tell us that something cannot appear out of nothing. Even if we learn some other natural thing caused the Big Bang, something would have had to have started that. As many levels as we go up, SOMETHING outside of nature would have to be the ultimate cause/creator. And that is exactly the definition of God: supernatual creator of the universe.
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mo2169
Guest
We have a wonderful forgiving God! No matter how wrong you are, you can and will be forgiven. Infinite punishments are for those who are willing to negate his existence. (basically putting self and material before Him)
Seriously, God loves you - His message throughout the entire Bible is to get His creation to learn His ways in order to be saved and be with Him! From what I understand and believe, your heart needs become pure - no matter when in life you decide to follow him, He will forgive you for all the wrong you’ve done. as long as you are willing (in heart) to Love him and obey Him.
I dealt with similar questions about God’s existence at first. Lots of reading and dedication in studying His message strengthened my Faith - I am so much happier today.
I sincerely wish you all the best throughout your journey.
I apologize if I was disrespectful in any way or if my answers aren’t correct according to your questions. My intention was to show you my sincere feelings and beliefs.
God Bless.
A
AntiTheist
Guest
Super, but I asked you specifically about blood sacrifice.
Do you think that it is a good thing in and of itself? If you were god, would you choose blood sacrifice as the method of redemption? Would you choose to punish people for eternity if they don’t love you?
I wouldn’t choose those things, and I dare say that you would also not choose them. I also cannot respect a being that would choose such things, and I certainly could not worship such a being.
Even if your god exists, if he’s anything like your Bible claims, I wouldn’t worship him.
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AntiTheist
Guest
…is to spill blood to make up for wrongdoing. It’s a practice engaged in by primitive tribes and voodoo medicine men, based on the principle that guilt can be transfered to a sacrificial victim who will pay the price.
Count me out of it.
The Big Bang is the name for the expansion of the “stuff” that was there already. Where that “stuff” came from is anybody’s guess. Personally, I see no reason to think that the “stuff” couldn’t have always existed in some form or another. There very well could have been a perfectly natural reason for its expansion. Then again, maybe Cthulhu made it expand. Or Thor. Or Zeus. Or your god. Or the Hindu gods. Or…
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jinminn
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Where did you obtain your teachings? And where did they get their teachings from? And so on? Eventually, you do, in fact, put your faith in evidence. You’re just not seeing it… The belief you have in your ‘teachings’ actually stem from ‘evidence’ in the form of:
- Jesus actually rose
- Paul and the early Church members who wrote actually got the message right
- People in various councils throughout the ages actually got the canon and teachings right (like on homoousia of Christ, assumption, immaculate conception, etc.)
The obvious answer is that if we could time travel and show Jesus not come out of the tomb, or that there never was a tomb, or something else which disproved the resurrection… you should renounce belief immediately as a sane individual.
By definition he cannot change. He is perfect. Change would imply getting better (impossible for perfection) or worse (again impossible for perfection). When I google search ‘does god change’, here are the top 5 hits:
- gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html
- letusreason.org/Onenes2.htm
- tektonics.org/gk/godchangemind.html
- atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/immutable.htm
- christiancourier.com/articles/559-does-god-change-his-mind
I can’t even respond to this. I feel like I’m dialogging with an automated response generator. You don’t even address the issue, which is that ‘deeper meaning’ does not change the wrongdoing. Plus, you cannot even begin to suggest what the deeper meaning is behind the thousands of animals slaughtered or why specifically it had to be a human sacrifice which redeemed man.
At least Paul has a reason: he believed in a one man fall and thus a one man redemption. We now know that Adam is impossible and thus Paul can be proven wrong in his theological extrapolation of Jesus’ death.
As a response to my post, I absolutely must conclude that you are insane. I posted that ‘deeper meaning’ does not justify the killing of innocents and you responded that it’s actually good for them to die?
You should seek counsel.
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jinminn
Guest
The point is not about who can be forgiven. The point is that god initiated the eternal torment punishment to begin with. Finite beings committing finite wrong doing cannot justly deserve infinite punishment. It doesn’t matter that you said ‘well, if you do such and such, I’ll let you go…’ The punishment was literally designed by god, who should have known better.
I am willing but cannot love or obey someone who I do not have evidence for.
Do you have a kool-aid mustache as well?
What everyone wants is evidence or at least explanation. Christianity posits many things but then cannot fully explain them like:
- god’s omniscience and omnipotence vs. the existence of evil (free-will fails against natural evil)
- god’s immutability/perfection vs. god’s changing commands/appearance in OT vs. NT (I can’t see how viewing slaughter of nations ‘through the lens of Christ’ really changes the OT satisfactorily)
- god was the banger of the big bang vs. how god created/existed when there was no time whatsoever (causality only has significance in a time line)
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mo2169
Guest
as I’ve mentioned…
Blood sacrifices was a method of giving back to God. To show Him that He deserves the best of what He gives you in the first place (by allowing your crops to grow, your animals to multiply, etc.). This has to do with you showing gratitude and obedience. The act and method is overlooked by the overall reason behind it - and it’s difficult to grasp - but hanging on to this “blood is bad” view will not get you anywhere. Try to see the overall picture.
If you think it’s a dirty/bad thing for God to do, that’s your choice.
But remember, He is the Creator - He can choose to do whatever He wants.
Hope one day you change your mind about God. Life is so much easier that way.
God Bless.
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mo2169
Guest
I agree with you here.
I initially thought you meant changing as “changing His ways from the way of the OT comparing to the NT”
I must have misunderstood your question - English is my 3rd language. Still learning.
I again, apologize.
God Bless.
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mo2169
Guest
Yes. And you too can have a kool-aid mustache.
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mo2169
Guest
Evidence…
Have you tried reading the Bible again? Maybe a couple of more times?
Maybe your initial approach in being skeptical about physical things/proof caused you to view it differently from what it really is and actually teaches. (e-sword.net has an online Bible with helpful versions and comments - very helpful)
I’m not criticizing you here - I’ve personally learned many things from revising the Bible in areas I really thought I fully understood.
Try it with an open mind - telling yourself you want to believe this time around (If that’s what you really want).
God Bless.
Z
Zatzat
Guest
2 Chronicles 21:15
'the LORD will strike your people, your children, your wives, and all that is yours with a great plague;
and you shall have severe pains from a disease in your bowels, while your bowels issue forth because of the disease, day after day.’" ’
I do have an open mind and it tells me that I do not want to know this God.
On another note, notice how you’ll never hear this read in Church?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
This is…
A whole lot of nothing.
1-9 - arguments from authority, but 5 is an extra special helping of total nonsensical doo doo as well as number 7
10- Ad Ignorantium
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R_Daneel
Guest
Translation: “Might makes right!”. Or “He, who wields the big stick, can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us, better put up, or shut up - or else!”.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Remember having an ant farm when you were a kid? I had one. I dropped it on the way home about ten steps away from where the bus dropped me off. I could have saved the thing. It only had a hairline crack in it when I tried to grab it off the sidewalk. But, The kids I shared travels home from school with decided they should take it and step on it, break it to bits.
They were God not unlike the God of the bible that day IMHO. And, yes I know that theists will bristle and get all bunched up over my opinion.
But, those kids had a plan I just am not intelligent enough to understand.
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doughnut
Guest
i was raised as one, by parents who had no religious affliations, and their parents non-whatsoever either.
my father’s quite a firm atheist, my mother couldn’t care less; she thinks religion, of any sort is a waste of time.
to my best of knowledge, only my paternal grandmother converted to buddhism; but she was the odd one out.
religion never made sense to me, until a miracle led me to Christ personally, and thats when i embarked on the ‘point of no return’. I can no longer deny his existence, because that would be living a lie.
It wasn’t easy especially in the beginning because you live with a family that will most likely ‘laughed at your stupidity’ than accept your conversion.
But they did, they probably doubted my testimony, but shrugged it off and accepted that I’m just going to be different - as if my whole life hadn’t been bordering on queer-ness. Perhaps, among those, conversion to Catholicism was really mild - so long as it kept me away from other disasters.
On a personal note, i realised my mindset changed rapidly, my emotions changed too. I’m still a baby with my new found faith maybe…waddling through this world. It improved my life significantly in the expect of, I found a new love. I had alot of troubles that still didn’t go away, so on the outside I looked the same. The only difference is, I experienced significantly, more love and compassion towards everybody else.
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