Athiests - Why is rejection better than acceptance? Why is No Hope Better than Hope?

[CHRISTINE77]

And what ways do you have of knowing this that distinguish the relationship from that of a child to his imaginary friend? (Besides the fact that other people share the belief, just as lots of people have shared other false beliefs, like Scientology, Hinduism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Norse paganism, etc.)

I have something known as faith, which you athiests lack.

 

[Luke_K]

And more to the point, there are plenty of very positive atheists, and my guess is that the vast majority of the millions upon millions of atheists in the world are more positive and reality-based on the whole.

Funny you should mention that: online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html

 

[crazzeto]

I have something known as faith, which you athiests lack.

No they don’t, they’re idoliters. The works of men are their God.

Athiests, essentially are much like Rachel’s father in Genesis:

19 At that time Laban was gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole away her father’s idols.
…
30 Suppose thou didst desire to go to thy friends, and hadst a longing after thy father’s house: why hast thou stolen away my gods?

 

[SFO]

And more to the point, there are plenty of very positive atheists, and my guess is that the vast majority of the millions upon millions of atheists in the world are more positive and reality-based on the whole.

chuckles Of course you would make that guess! I’m guessing there are plenty of positive and reality-based believers of God, too!

Fact is, there are Atheists who are better “Christians” than Christians and vice versa. It’s hard to make a blanket statement about any given community of people, but I feel those people who represent the true ideals behind each of these groups are more alike than they may realize.

 

[AntiTheist]

I have something known as faith, which you athiests lack.

You must know in your heart of hearts that that is not an answer, that your “faith” really is no different than a child and his imaginary friend.

Luke K: I don’t have the time to read that right now, but let’s say for the sake of argument that it claims that 99.9999999% of atheists believe in completely irrational things. It doesn’t do a thing to refute any of the claims I’ve made about the benefits of accepting reality. It just demonstrates that most people who claim to be atheists also don’t accept reality.

Let’s be clear: I’m specifically talking on this thread about giving up the god delusion. I think that’s the first and biggest step towards giving up other delusions, but I may be wrong.

 

[AntiTheist]

Fact is, there are Atheists who are better “Christians” than Christians and vice versa. It’s hard to make a blanket statement about any given community of people, but I feel those people who represent the true ideals behind each of these groups are more alike than they may realize.

You’re absolutely right.

My only point was that there are benefits of accepting reality and giving up the god delusion. Whether it leads to giving up other delusions is an open question – and you’re right, there are indeed atheists who are deluded in other ways.

 

[stenlis]

What is it you are offering to us when you ask us NOT to believe?

Most atheists actually do not ask you NOT to believe, just to have an understanding for people who do not want to be subjected to laws and societal rules based solely on religious belief but rather let those rules be a matter of rational debate.

What advantage(s) does belief in NO God offer?

This varies from person to person. Does your religious belief make you a happy person living a rich and full life within your social environment? Keep it.
On the other hand there are people for whom their religious beliefs come with an unbearable burden of guilt and helplessness. A realization that you are the architect of your life and that you don’t have to pay back a six thousand year old debt made by some stranger taking a bite from an apple is often uplifting for people who are then able live happier lives.

And of course, there is the ‘realization of truth’ point that Luke K mentioned.

Why is Rejection of God better than Acceptance of God?

I guess my previous answer covers this as well.

Why is Hoplessness (No afterlife) better than Hopefullness (glorious afterlife)?

No afterlife is not ‘hopelessness’ for me. I would love to live a couple hundred years. Even couple thousand. But not for an eternity. I want to cease to exist eventually.

One way or another wishing something was true does not make it so. Live your life as if it was the only one you are going to get and you don’t lose anything - you can only gain.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You must know in your heart of hearts that that is not an answer, that your “faith” really is no different than a child and his imaginary friend

Blah - you are full of it. Really think you know all the answers don’t you? Kind of like God?

 

[SFO]

You’re absolutely right.

My only point was that there are benefits of accepting reality and giving up the god delusion. Whether it leads to giving up other delusions is an open question – and you’re right, there are indeed atheists who are deluded in other ways.

I dare to say that there are also benefits to not accepting “reality” as science dictates and accepting a “god delusion” (but not necessarily as organized religion dictates).

Can you accept that?

 

[AntiTheist]

I dare to say that there are also benefits to not accepting “reality” as science dictates and accepting a “god delusion” (but not necessarily as organized religion dictates).

Can you accept that?

Sure, it can be beneficial to accept lies. We tell kids lies all the time because we think it’s beneficial to shield them (temporarily, hopefully) from reality.

The OP on this thread specifically requested to know what benefits there were to accepting atheism, and I answered truthfully that atheism has the benefit of being true and allowing you to deal with reality on its own terms.

If you don’t want to do that, then fine.

Christine77:

Blah - you are full of it. Really think you know all the answers don’t you? Kind of like God?

No, I don’t have “all the answers,” but I know an imaginary being when I see one (or a being that can’t be distinguished from an imaginary being).

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sure, it can be beneficial to accept lies. We tell kids lies all the time because we think it’s beneficial to shield them (temporarily, hopefully) from reality.

The OP on this thread specifically requested to know what benefits there were to accepting atheism, and I answered truthfully that atheism has the benefit of being true and allowing you to deal with reality on its own terms.

If you don’t want to do that, then fine.

Christine77: No, I don’t have “all the answers,” but I know an imaginary being when I see one (or a being that can’t be distinguished from an imaginary being).

Well someday when you are not so puffed up with false hubris, maybe you will open your heart to God. Until then, enjoy your atheistic life. I don’t have any more comments to make to you.

 

[SFO]

Sure, it can be beneficial to accept lies. We tell kids lies all the time because we think it’s beneficial to shield them (temporarily, hopefully) from reality.

The OP on this thread specifically requested to know what benefits there were to accepting atheism, and I answered truthfully that atheism has the benefit of being true and allowing you to deal with reality on its own terms.

I did not mean to imply that you did not answer truthfully. I think it it quite obvious you are passionate and honest about what you believe. The point I want to make is simply that these two groups have a different meaning of reality. It’s apples and oranges. To try and explain Christian reality through the lens of Atheism is difficult if not impossible. And it goes both ways.

Reality for believers of God does not depend solely on things you can see or prove. To Atheists, as I understand, it is a necessary component.

I do think it is beneficial for the two groups to come together and explore their differences, but to try to convince one group that the other is right doesn’t seem to be all that productive.

 

[AntiTheist]

Reality for believers of God does not depend solely on things you can see or prove. To Atheists, as I understand, it is a necessary component.

Just to put a point on this, it’s not that atheists need to prove absolutely every last thing that they believe in – we don’t go around conducting science experiments in our daily lives, for example – it’s just that, generally speaking, we think that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that that is the only sensible way to proceed in a world where it’s obvious that we’re more than capable of fooling ourselves.

I do think it is beneficial for the two groups to come together and explore their differences, but to try to convince one group that the other is right doesn’t seem to be all that productive.

I think you’re right. In my experience, very few people ever change their minds from these kinds of conversations, so I just try to model my ways of thinking for others because 1) I find it fun, and 2) I think it’s useful for people sitting “on the fence” and for those who are curious about other ways of thinking.

Thanks for the comments – for the most part, I treat respectful people with respect – or at least I try to!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

No, I don’t have “all the answers,” but I know an imaginary being when I see one (or a being that can’t be distinguished from an imaginary being).

The only evidence of God you will find is in your heart. When you get tired of the pains of this world, the sadness you feel, the suffering you endure, etc, maybe you will open your heart and let Him in…He is the only one to ease all fears.

God Bless you

 

[ralphinal]

Well, I was talking about tendencies, not specific individuals. You can’t sensibly refute my points by bringing up a handful of people who don’t have the same disposition as a lot of other atheists.

I would say that the atheist of the last 20 years is closer to you in mentality than the old sort. The older ones tend to have the stereotypical views.

Also keep in mind that I’m talking about looking at reality, which atheism is certainly a part of, but it’s not the entirety of the process. You can give up the delusional belief in god and still suffer other kinds of delusions – persecution complexes, weird conspiracy theories, and depressive tendencies (which include inherited tendencies towards depression that lots of people battle, religious or not). There are certainly atheists who are not fully accepting reality.

And more to the point, there are plenty of very positive atheists, and my guess is that the vast majority of the millions upon millions of atheists in the world are more positive and reality-based on the whole.

But where am I separated from reality because I have faith? Where does my possession of faith cause any one any sort of problems?

 

[NoWings]

Well someday when you are not so puffed up with false hubris, maybe you will open your heart to God. Until then, enjoy your atheistic life. I don’t have any more comments to make to you.

Shut your mouth, Christine. You’re spewing hot wind like some spoiled little 12 year old princess who’s having a knee-jerk reaction and throwing a fit.

Not every atheist is a puffed up self-god know it all. Some of us lay in bed wondering why we weren’t aborted because there is no purpose or point to being here in the first place. Some of us cry out in our hearts and hear absolutely nothing. There is no Holy Spirit in our heart. We don’t believe in God because it doesn’t ring true. There are people that simply aren’t wired to be that way.

If you honestly think that most people enjoy the though of erasing upon death and never seeing their dead mother or father or children again, then you aren’t living on the same planet as the rest of us.

Atheists and agnostics simply do what they can with what they’re given.

I’m sorry. I’m not sure if God exists, or WHICH God exists, or HOW MANY gods exist, or what WAYS there are to get to god, or even if there’s an afterlife regardless of whether God exists or not.

I cannot stand you theists who think that every atheist and agnostic wake up every morning, have a good stretch, and tweak their evil mustache as they’re going to be all about doing naughty things all day because they aren’t afraid of God.

I cry out in my heart all the time. I wish something could make me believe. Christianity is just as believable as Islam, which is just as believable as other belief systems. Christianity is also just as UN-believable as Islam, which is just as UN-believable as other belief systems.

I’m envious of people who have that comfort in their lives. No matter what happens, their life has purpose because God wove them into His Grand Design.

We have no grand design. We’re computers made of meat that for some reason have feelings and consciousness that do us more harm than good. That’s how some of us view ourselves.

When your children or grandchildren go through their atheistic phase during their teenage and early 20 years, I hope you’re more receptive to them than you are hiding behind an internet persona.

I hope you tell them that you love them, not that they’re puffed up with false hubris, and I certainly hope you can manage to enjoy your life with them, atheistic or not.

 

[JRKH]

JRHK:
Well, for starters, let’s take the assertion made by someone earlier in this thread that life is “hopeless” without the belief in an afterlife.

The reality of the situation is that there is absolutely zero evidence that life continues after death. Everything that we have discovered about consciousness tells us that it depends upon brain activity and that when brain activity changes or ceases, consciousness also changes or ceases. We have never observed a consciousness without a brain, etc., etc.

Here’s reality: things are alive for a while and then they die.

When you start rebelling against reality, when you look at reality and want it to be different – rather than accepting it on its own terms – you start living in a world of fantasies that consist of how you’d like reality to be. You start thinking that you’re going to exist forever, and then your whole thought process gets out of whack: you think, for example, that injustice in this world may not be so bad since you’re anticipating a cosmic justice after life is over; you think that happiness in this world is not all that important since you anticipate being happy forever after life is over; you think it’s not as bad as it could be if you weren’t as nice to some family members as you could be since you’re anticipating spending all of eternity with them and making it up to them again, etc., etc.

Your whole perception of reality is warped from that one belief – I could go on and on about that belief and about other supernatural beliefs, but I think you get the point.

Meanwhile, when you accept reality for what it is, you tend to be more motivated to do something about injustice and unhappiness here and now; you tend to cherish the time you spend with friends and family because you’re aware that it won’t last forever; you realize that you only have one chance to get it right, so you do your best and appreciate everything more because it’s so temporary. You revel in every day that you have the privilege to be alive in this amazing universe because you’re aware that it didn’t have to be and that it could end – permanently – at any given moment. Each second is special and will never come again; each moment is precious.

It’s not hopeless – just the opposite.

What I find remarkable about your asserions above that purport to contrast the “Warped” view of those who believe in God with the, I suppose, NOT warped view of the athiest is that I have never met a Christian who was unhappy in the ways that you propose above.
I certainly don’t.
Rather I see the Glory of the Afterlife as a great impetus to do even MORE. To Love my neighbor MORE to Love my Family MORE. To fight injustice MORE and so on.
The reason being because in doing these things we fulfill the goals of our faith which is not just to be “good people” but to be “Perfect as your heavenly father is perfect”.

I’m no philosopher but I think that your whole dissertaion above is what is called a “Strawman argument”. Maybe I’m wrong, but what you have done is construct an erronious picture of the life of a Christian and then proceeded to discredit such a “Christian”.
If this is truly how you view Christian beliefs then I think you may need to do a bit more research.

Peace
James

 

[Andrew1983]

I think it would do all people a world of good to read the Wisdom Books of the Catholic Deutero-canon, namely the Books of Wisdom and Sirach. There are some really good passages in there that help to explain the Abrahamic concept of God, which I notice is something that people seem to not truly grasp.

Sirach does a pretty good job of explaining the differences of God in relation to the practice of idol and nature worship. It’s definitely worth a read.

 

[JRKH]

Most atheists actually do not ask you NOT to believe, just to have an understanding for people who do not want to be subjected to laws and societal rules based solely on religious belief but rather let those rules be a matter of rational debate.

You may well be correct, however there are some who are posting on this website who clearly feel that we poor misguided Christians should give up our “God delusion” and accept “Reality” (That is we should accept their version of reality).
It is to these people that I was primarily addressing the thread.
It’s one thing to, as an individual, reject God and say I have no faith etc…
It’s another thing entirely to “preach” said belief to others with the goal of changing their minds.
This speaks of having a faith. It is a faith of “Reason” and “Reality” and “It’s Got to be Proved to me”. A belief and a Faith so strong that one feels the necessity to come onto a Catholic website and try to “convert” us to this belief.

Perhaps Atheists aren’t seeing this, but it is there none the less.

This varies from person to person. Does your religious belief make you a happy person living a rich and full life within your social environment? Keep it.
On the other hand there are people for whom their religious beliefs come with an unbearable burden of guilt and helplessness. A realization that you are the architect of your life and that you don’t have to pay back a six thousand year old debt made by some stranger taking a bite from an apple is often uplifting for people who are then able live happier lives.

Yes I know this to be true. It is unfortunate that some people get so hung up on the details and the “Guilt” and completely miss the Joy of the Christian Life. Especially when part of that IS that you are the archetect of your own life. That paying back that “six thousand year old debt” is just a sprinkle of water away and it’s done with.

No afterlife is not ‘hopelessness’ for me. I would love to live a couple hundred years. Even couple thousand. But not for an eternity. I want to cease to exist eventually.

To me this is just a very sad statement. Of course if living for eternity meant living in this world, I could see your point, but gladly we look forward to an different existance infinitely more fulfilling than this one.
So - I don’t want to miss out on that.

One way or another wishing something was true does not make it so. Live your life as if it was the only one you are going to get and you don’t lose anything - you can only gain.

True, wishing does not make it so.

But back to “reality”.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Sure, it can be beneficial to accept lies. We tell kids lies all the time because we think it’s beneficial to shield them (temporarily, hopefully) from reality.

The OP on this thread specifically requested to know what benefits there were to accepting atheism, and I answered truthfully that atheism has the benefit of being true and allowing you to deal with reality on its own terms.

If you don’t want to do that, then fine.

I’m still having trouble figuring out what “Reality” it is we are not accepting on it’s own terms.

We believe that the earth revolves around the sun.
We believe that diseases are Casued by germs and viruses etc.
We believe that we need to be good stewards of the Earth.
We believe that we should help our fellow man.
We believe that the physical sciences are extremely important to mans future
etc…

There seems to be a disconnect somewhere, because you seem to think that we aren’t dealing properly with “reality” because we believe there is something “Intelligent” behind the physical universe and you believe there is NOT.
Yet in this, neither one of us can objectively prove thier point.

Perhaps I’m missing something.

Peace
James