Athiests - Why is rejection better than acceptance? Why is No Hope Better than Hope?

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Just as an adjunct to the idea of being both scientific and keeping an open mind, consider the history of inventions. Flying, the Telegraph and Telephone, Radio, the Railroads, Cars, Medicines, Space Travel etc. are all examples of people not being satisfied with reality as it existed. They were always pushing the limits of knowledge and kept an open mind, even a positive mind, when others told them that this or that could not be done.

Peace
James
 
Having read and posting on various threads where athiests have expressed their views. The Following questions seem appropriate. This thread grows out of another thread HERE but I felt sthe subject needed it’s own thread.

When a Christian asks you to believe in God and preaches the Gospel etc to you, they are offering you a hope in Eternal Life.
The questions for you are are these.


  1. *]What is it you are offering to us when you ask us NOT to believe?

    *]What advantage(s) does belief in NO God offer?

    *]Why is Rejection of God better than Acceptance of God?

    *]Why is Hoplessness (No afterlife) better than Hopefullness (glorious afterlife)?

    Let it be know right now that I am no philosopher, nor am I a theologen.
    I am a simple believer in God, because it makes no sense to me NOT to believe in God.
    I am a Christian because Christianity, built upon Love, makes more sense than any other faith that I have looked at.

    I recognize that there are numerous examples of people of faith acting badly, even horrifically, yet I cannot see that as some sort of proof against Gods existance.

    So tell me - What does the “faith of Atheism” offer that is not found in a “faith of theism”.
    Most forms of belief in God, particularly Judeo/Christian belief, whether right or wrong, offers the Hope of salvation and an eternal life of happiness. What can Atheism offer me except the grave?

    Peace
    James

  1. As can be deducted from my other posts, my name and my description, I am a far cry from being an atheist.

    However, this OP is missing the point: An atheist is not an atheist because it “offers” him something (although I wouldn’t totally rule out the possibility that some are atheists because they don’t want God telling them what to do), he’s an atheist because he does not believe that God (or “gods”) exists.

    Therefore, the premise of the question is false on a basic level.
 
As can be deducted from my other posts, my name and my description, I am a far cry from being an atheist.

However, this OP is missing the point: An atheist is not an atheist because it “offers” him something (although I wouldn’t totally rule out the possibility that some are atheists because they don’t want God telling them what to do), he’s an atheist because he does not believe that God (or “gods”) exists.

Therefore, the premise of the question is false on a basic level.
I guess I was not clear in my OP, but what I wanted to address what atheists are offering when they choose to come to a Christian website, or anywhere else for that matter, and try to convince others that there is no God. I can see it if a Christian approaches an Atheist and the atheist is defending their views. But that is not hte case here. No one is approaching an atheist here, the atheist is approaching us - and often times not with questions but rather with, what amounts to, preaching.

Anyway - that is why I asked what they felt Atheism had to offer that theism does not. If your going to put forward a viewpoint, a belief system, there should be some perceived benefit. We know what belief in God offers, so I asked what Atheism offers.
The only answer I’ve been able to discern from the answers here is that Atheism offers “Reality” - Whatever that means. 🤷

Peace
James
 
I guess I was not clear in my OP, but what I wanted to address what atheists are offering when they choose to come to a Christian website, or anywhere else for that matter, and try to convince others that there is no God. I can see it if a Christian approaches an Atheist and the atheist is defending their views. But that is not hte case here. No one is approaching an atheist here, the atheist is approaching us - and often times not with questions but rather with, what amounts to, preaching.

Anyway - that is why I asked what they felt Atheism had to offer that theism does not. If your going to put forward a viewpoint, a belief system, there should be some perceived benefit. We know what belief in God offers, so I asked what Atheism offers.
The only answer I’ve been able to discern from the answers here is that Atheism offers “Reality” - Whatever that means. 🤷

Peace
James
I think they equate themselves with someone telling a 20-year old who still believes in Santa Claus, that he isn’t real.
They see themselves as harbingers of “the truth”; which is that there is no God/gods, and that to believe that is to inhibit yourself and they way you live your life quite needlessly.

Those are the “good” atheists - the reasonable ones, those with whom a fruitful dialogue can sometimes be established.
Then there’s the ones like RIchard Dawkins, which are entirely different kettles of fish, driven solely by their desire to mock and feel superior, and the infantile “I’m right PFFFFFFTTTT”-attitude.

(isn’t it fun to present viewpoints that are not your own? 😉 )
 
I guess I was not clear in my OP, but what I wanted to address what atheists are offering when they choose to come to a Christian website, or anywhere else for that matter, and try to convince others that there is no God. I can see it if a Christian approaches an Atheist and the atheist is defending their views. But that is not hte case here. No one is approaching an atheist here, the atheist is approaching us - and often times not with questions but rather with, what amounts to, preaching.

Anyway - that is why I asked what they felt Atheism had to offer that theism does not. If your going to put forward a viewpoint, a belief system, there should be some perceived benefit. We know what belief in God offers, so I asked what Atheism offers.
The only answer I’ve been able to discern from the answers here is that Atheism offers “Reality” - Whatever that means. 🤷

Peace
James
Atheism does not offer you anything per se (there are atheistic religions that do - like Raelians - but for the sake of simplicity, when I mention ‘atheism’ here, I mean the main stream non-religious atheism like rationalism, secular humanism, scientific materialism etc.). When a theist deconverts, he/she doesn’t get a unified big book of morals to replace the ten commandments and he doesn’t get to go to atheist sermons every sunday morning. When a person becomes atheist, it’s by losing their faith - most commonly due to the fact, that the person cannot reasonably support his religious beliefs when he confronts them with reality.

Losing your faith is often quite hard. You have to figure things out for yourself. And there are atheists that say their (christian) faith was very useful for them at some stages of their lives. When you are a twenty-something with two kids and bills to pay, you have no time to ponder the meaning of your life in a universe without divine purpose or contemplate secular discourses on ethics. Religion can give you a base-line, a focus that can be helpful. If you need your faith, hang onto it. A lot of atheists (like me) do not necessarily want to drag people out of their religion kicking and screaming but rather simply correct (many) misconceptions theists tend to have about atheists.

True, there are some atheists that want to ‘convert’ others and I disagree with their approach. You cannot force-feed someone with a philosophy. No matter how much you like it.
 
the only thing atheists have in common with one another is being RIGHT about theism 🙂
 
Atheism does not offer you anything per se (there are atheistic religions that do - like Raelians - but for the sake of simplicity, when I mention ‘atheism’ here, I mean the main stream non-religious atheism like rationalism, secular humanism, scientific materialism etc.). When a theist deconverts, he/she doesn’t get a unified big book of morals to replace the ten commandments and he doesn’t get to go to atheist sermons every sunday morning. When a person becomes atheist, it’s by losing their faith - most commonly due to the fact, that the person cannot reasonably support his religious beliefs when he confronts them with reality.
I understand that there is no real organized “faith” of atheism. As I hope you recognize my question was mainly to those who feel the need to “preach” atheism.
Also I think you are quite right in saying that when a person becomes an atheist, they lose something. They have not gained reality, but rather lost hope. This is one of the reasons why I find it troubling when an atheist feels the need to “convert” me, or to run down my belief.
My belief offers great peace, hope and love, which is something I wish to offer to the atheist. What he offers to me might be peacful and loving (in a sense) but has no hope in it.
Losing your faith is often quite hard. You have to figure things out for yourself. And there are atheists that say their (christian) faith was very useful for them at some stages of their lives. When you are a twenty-something with two kids and bills to pay, you have no time to ponder the meaning of your life in a universe without divine purpose or contemplate secular discourses on ethics. Religion can give you a base-line, a focus that can be helpful. If you need your faith, hang onto it.
It’s funny you should say this. For me it was actually the opposite. I had more trouble with faith as a young man than I do now. As I grow older and see more of the “reality” of the world and relations among people my need for and desire for and certainty of God increases rather than decreases.
A lot of atheists (like me) do not necessarily want to drag people out of their religion kicking and screaming but rather simply correct (many) misconceptions theists tend to have about atheists.
True, there are some atheists that want to ‘convert’ others and I disagree with their approach. You cannot force-feed someone with a philosophy. No matter how much you like it.
Thank you for that. I hope that you will stick around and continue your well thought out and respectful posts. Perhaps you can help other atheists recognize when they are being hurtful in their posts by using hurtful and degrading language about our beliefs. AND perhaps you can do the same for us.

Peace
James
 
the only thing atheists have in common with one another is being RIGHT about theism 🙂
Which is just as easy to say:

The only thing Theists have in common with one another is being RIGHT about Theism 🙂
Which inspired me to say, you’re both probably wrong. No one really KNOWS. But, the day when we all find out will certainly be an interesting one.
 
Which inspired me to say, you’re both probably wrong. No one really KNOWS. But, the day when we all find out will certainly be an interesting one.
If it will an “interesting one” we’ll never know (since we’ll be dead and extinguished).
 
I have come to the conclusion that atheists are angry, miserable people,

No 🙂 - While I was still Catholic, trying to be “orthodox”, & trying to believe all the poppycock & propaganda lies of Catholicism, I was very “angry” & “miserable”. But now ? Not a bit of it. You Catholocs can keep your Father Ped O’Philes, your Jew-hating ultra-trads, your ever-so-Catholic Holocaust deniers, lying bishops, boigus apparitions & all your other criminals & maniacs to yourselves. You’re welcome to them.​

and they want everyone around them to be miserable, too.

Stop projecting 🙂

In yesterday’s edition of my newspaper, there was an article about the increasing number of atheist groups on college campuses. They gave an example of some students (I don’t remember the school) who set up an “atheist booth” and they stand there and try to talk other people into their views. Why? Why would you want to convince other people to not believe in anything? :confused:

What, you want to believe in an Invisible Super-Friend who does nothing, explains nothing, & fulfils no function but that of a Holy (Holey?) Comfort-Blanket, even though there is as much evidence for the Invisible Super-Friend’s eternity & omnipotence, etc., as for the eternity & omnipotence of a cup of coffee ? At least one can drink the coffee - but your God, what good is he to anyone ? None.​

Isn’t it morally better and more adult to “put away childish things” such as the Invisible Super-Friend, seeing as there is no good reason to imagine it has any reality ? Or are we suppose to believe the lies & nonsense that pass for Christian theism ? It’s wrong to lie - so how can it be right to believe what one has no reason to think is anything else ?

When your Loving Saviour who never saves anything or anyone - it’s difficult to do, if one does not even exist - bothers to do so, & can be demonstrated to have done so, very frequently, and can be shown to be at work so that only the LS acts, so that chance can be absolutely excluded - when you can show there is a LS who fits his billing (which you can’t do, so don’t bother trying), when all that is done, I might just possibly be able to take your non-saving Saviour God as something that could exist. But only then - not before. As your God has frequently let his own chosen people be slaughtered in their thousands & millions, salvation is obviously not something he is good at. Why so incompetent a deity is called a Saviour, & an Almighty Saviour at that, is anyone’s guess. So you lose already. Sorry.
 

No 🙂 - While I was still Catholic, trying to be “orthodox”, & trying to believe all the poppycock & propaganda lies of Catholicism, I was very “angry” & “miserable”. But now ? Not a bit of it. You Catholocs can keep your Father Ped O’Philes, your Jew-hating ultra-trads, your ever-so-Catholic Holocaust deniers, lying bishops, boigus apparitions & all your other criminals & maniacs to yourselves. You’re welcome to them.​

Stop projecting 🙂

What, you want to believe in an Invisible Super-Friend who does nothing, explains nothing, & fulfils no function but that of a Holy (Holey?) Comfort-Blanket, even though there is as much evidence for the Invisible Super-Friend’s eternity & omnipotence, etc., as for the eternity & omnipotence of a cup of coffee ? At least one can drink the coffee - but your God, what good is he to anyone ? None.​

Isn’t it morally better and more adult to “put away childish things” such as the Invisible Super-Friend, seeing as there is no good reason to imagine it has any reality ? Or are we suppose to believe the lies & nonsense that pass for Christian theism ? It’s wrong to lie - so how can it be right to believe what one has no reason to think is anything else ?

When your Loving Saviour who never saves anything or anyone - it’s difficult to do, if one does not even exist - bothers to do so, & can be demonstrated to have done so, very frequently, and can be shown to be at work so that only the LS acts, so that chance can be absolutely excluded - when you can show there is a LS who fits his billing (which you can’t do, so don’t bother trying), when all that is done, I might just possibly be able to take your non-saving Saviour God as something that could exist. But only then - not before. As your God has frequently let his own chosen people be slaughtered in their thousands & millions, salvation is obviously not something he is good at. Why so incompetent a deity is called a Saviour, & an Almighty Saviour at that, is anyone’s guess. So you lose already. Sorry.
##Gottle / Micahel,…you are in my prayers son.
 

No 🙂 - While I was still Catholic, trying to be “orthodox”, & trying to believe all the poppycock & propaganda lies of Catholicism, I was very “angry” & “miserable”. But now ? Not a bit of it. You Catholocs can keep your Father Ped O’Philes, your Jew-hating ultra-trads, your ever-so-Catholic Holocaust deniers, lying bishops, boigus apparitions & all your other criminals & maniacs to yourselves. You’re welcome to them.​

I wish that all Christians and especially Catholics could see this and see how their, how our, sinfulness has negatively effected a soul to the point where it has utterly rejected God and can see only the sin and never the good that comes from the Church.

I pray that every Christian believer who reads your paragraph above will redouble their efforts to live as Christ taught so that others, and perhaps even yourself, will be able to see the promise and evidence of God in a new light.

What, you want to believe in an Invisible Super-Friend who does nothing, explains nothing, & fulfils no function but that of a Holy (Holey?) Comfort-Blanket, even though there is as much evidence for the Invisible Super-Friend’s eternity & omnipotence, etc., as for the eternity & omnipotence of a cup of coffee ? At least one can drink the coffee - but your God, what good is he to anyone ? None.​

If God were as you describe, then I would not believe in him either. This is why I reject the idea of the remote and disinterested God that some proclaim. Fortunately God is much more loving than that. He near to all, and lives in those who seek him in rightious and holy ways. I have testimony of such love in my life personally.
Isn’t it morally better and more adult to “put away childish things” such as the Invisible Super-Friend, seeing as there is no good reason to imagine it has any reality ?
What you define as “good reason” is obviously different than what I would define it as.
No I don’t think that it is somehow morally superior to “put away” God as a “childish thing”. Without the moral absolutes of God, we are left with moral relativism.
What I see is that those who utterly reject God, or at least a supreme being concept, are limiting themselves much more than those who accept God in concept, or at least admit the possibility.

My belief in an, to use your words, “Invisible Super Friend”, has absolutely zero effect on you personally so why should you or any other non-believer, feel the need to come to this web-site and try to undermine the beliefs of believers? That was the point of the OP.
Or are we suppose to believe the lies & nonsense that pass for Christian theism ? It’s wrong to lie - so how can it be right to believe what one has no reason to think is anything else ?
It appears that you have looked at Christianity and, after seeing both the good and the bad, given great weight to the negative while giving little weight to anything positive. Perhaps negativity has been your experience and for that I am sorry. But such a view point is no more valid than one that closes their eyes to the sins of people in the Church.
We could easily look at secular society and see the same good and bad sprinkled throughout. Our culture and systems today are riddled with those who break every form of law from murder to cheating on taxes to speeding on the highway. This same secular society raises great amounts of money for charity, seeks to releive suffering and other works of love.
Since there is much “sin” in our society does that make the principles and ideals upon which the culture is based wrong? Of course not. It only proves that we need laws and courts and rules. Further, we can show that laws and courts are not always just or applied fairly, but again that does not undercut the ideals upon which they are based.
You reject God, at least partly, because of the sins of those in the Church. Should you not also reject the ideals of our country and culture because of the sins of those who break the laws?
When your Loving Saviour who never saves anything or anyone - it’s difficult to do, if one does not even exist - bothers to do so, & can be demonstrated to have done so, very frequently, and can be shown to be at work so that only the LS acts, so that chance can be absolutely excluded - when you can show there is a LS who fits his billing (which you can’t do, so don’t bother trying), when all that is done, I might just possibly be able to take your non-saving Saviour God as something that could exist. But only then - not before.
In the above you show how you are shouting “SHOW ME” through a locked, bolted and barricaded door.
It is sad that your world is so narrowly defined. but I guess if you are happy that way…🤷
As your God has frequently let his own chosen people be slaughtered in their thousands & millions, salvation is obviously not something he is good at. Why so incompetent a deity is called a Saviour, & an Almighty Saviour at that, is anyone’s guess. So you lose already. Sorry.
This only demonstrates a world view that cannot see beyond the end of ones own nose. Have you not read that, those who believe, even though they die, yet shall they live, and fear not the one who can kill the body but can do no more…?
You place limits upon salvation because you cannot raise your eyes past this world, and past the sins of others. It is sad that you limit yourself so much, and it is sad that the example of other believers has helped to push you to this point. Of course it is only the examples of sin that you give any real weight to - and that is even sadder still.

Personally I will happily be God’s “loser” when I can only see the alternative as riding on a train of hopelessness in blissful, and self imposed, ignorance down to the grave.

Peace
James
 
I wish that all Christians and especially Catholics could see this and see how their, how our, sinfulness has negatively effected a soul to the point where it has utterly rejected God and can see only the sin and never the good that comes from the Church.
So if an atheist writes something thoughtful and compelling on the boards, will you call upon all christians to go and have a look at how atheists can be decent and contributing people?

Because if not, then all you’re doing here is a witch-hunt.
 
So if an atheist writes something thoughtful and compelling on the boards, will you call upon all christians to go and have a look at how atheists can be decent and contributing people?

Because if not, then all you’re doing here is a witch-hunt.
Please reread what you quoted from me.
The comments you quoted were directed at my fellow believers and not at Atheists.
They are a commentary on how we believers, by our sinful actions, can contribute to others losing their faith.

If you look through my posts you will find that I do not try to trap people but to understand through dialog. In fact, I responded to an earlier post from you on this very thread where I complimented you on your well thought out and presented post (though I’m not sure I used those words exactly).
If something was written that I felt should be called to everyones attention I would attempt to do so. I will also call fellow believers to task if I feel that someone is getting too far out of line (uncharitable) in their comments.

I do not believe in “witch-hunts”.

Peace
James
 
Please reread what you quoted from me.
The comments you quoted were directed at my fellow believers and not at Atheists.
They are a commentary on how we believers, by our sinful actions, can contribute to others losing their faith.

If you look through my posts you will find that I do not try to trap people but to understand through dialog. In fact, I responded to an earlier post from you on this very thread where I complimented you on your well thought out and presented post (though I’m not sure I used those words exactly).
If something was written that I felt should be called to everyones attention I would attempt to do so. I will also call fellow believers to task if I feel that someone is getting too far out of line (uncharitable) in their comments.

I do not believe in “witch-hunts”.

Peace
James
Well, you seem to be a polite person and I don’t want to make any judgments on you. I hardly know anything about you anyway.

It’s just that the everybody-come-here-and-look-at-this-sinner approach makes me cringe…
 
Well, you seem to be a polite person and I don’t want to make any judgments on you. I hardly know anything about you anyway.

It’s just that the everybody-come-here-and-look-at-this-sinner approach makes me cringe…
If I gave the impression that I was bemoaning or advertising Gottle’s perceived “sinfulness” then I apologize. Such was not my intent.
Let me take a look at what was actually said just to make sure:
Gottle said this (Bolding mine):
Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer

No - While I was still Catholic, trying to be “orthodox”, & trying to believe all the poppycock & propaganda lies of Catholicism, I was very “angry” & “miserable”. But now ? Not a bit of it. You Catholocs can keep your Father Ped O’Philes, your Jew-hating ultra-trads, your ever-so-Catholic Holocaust deniers, lying bishops, boigus apparitions & all your other criminals & maniacs to yourselves. You’re welcome to them.​

When I responded, I hoped to convey to others, and most especially to believers, how the sinfulness of believers had helped to lead a soul away from belief.
That is why I said this (Bolding added):
Originally Posted by JRKH
**I wish that all Christians and especially Catholics could see this and see how their, how our, sinfulness has negatively effected a soul to the point where it has utterly rejected **God and can see only the sin and never the good that comes from the Church.
I also said this, which you chose not to quote (Bolding added):
**I pray that every Christian believer who reads your paragraph above will redouble their efforts to live as Christ taught **so that others, and perhaps even yourself, will be able to see the promise and evidence of God in a new light.
So really - Does what I wrote really sound like I am accusing Gottle of being a sinner or am I accusing my fellow Christians of unchristian behavior that resulted in the losing of a soul?

Peace
James
 
Having read and posting on various threads where athiests have expressed their views. The Following questions seem appropriate. This thread grows out of another thread HERE but I felt sthe subject needed it’s own thread.

When a Christian asks you to believe in God and preaches the Gospel etc to you, they are offering you a hope in Eternal Life.
The questions for you are are these.


  1. *]What is it you are offering to us when you ask us NOT to believe?

    *]What advantage(s) does belief in NO God offer?

    *]Why is Rejection of God better than Acceptance of God?

    *]Why is Hoplessness (No afterlife) better than Hopefullness (glorious afterlife)?

    Let it be know right now that I am no philosopher, nor am I a theologen.
    I am a simple believer in God, because it makes no sense to me NOT to believe in God.
    I am a Christian because Christianity, built upon Love, makes more sense than any other faith that I have looked at.

    I recognize that there are numerous examples of people of faith acting badly, even horrifically, yet I cannot see that as some sort of proof against Gods existance.

    So tell me - What does the “faith of Atheism” offer that is not found in a “faith of theism”.
    Most forms of belief in God, particularly Judeo/Christian belief, whether right or wrong, offers the Hope of salvation and an eternal life of happiness. What can Atheism offer me except the grave?

    Peace
    James

  1. One of the old questions of philosophy is whether it is better to be a deliriously happy pig or a somewhat morose and cynical Socrates? Obviously it is better to be Socrates, since what we most seek as humans is a life that has value, not just one that is happy at any price in our human dignity or intellectual sophistication. If all we want is happiness at any price, why not just remain intoxicated through drugs, alcohol, or reassuring self-delusions all the time?

    Atheism urges people to move out of their theistic self-delusions because even though such an evolution may not make them any happier, it will certainly make them more sophisticated entities, able to confront with stark honesty the greatest and most real problems of human life, such as how do we give our finite existence meaning knowing that we face inevitable extinction? or how do generate our own values in a universe which gives us none? Only by wrestling with ultimate questions such as those can people truly become human. If they assume that some imaginary being from legend just solves these challenging, existential issues by his mere existence then they have lost the vitally important opportunity for personal development that comes from facing these questions as real problems to be thought through and answered for themselves. Since atheists would rather share the planet with existentially sophisticated beings rather than people anesthetized through fairy tales, we actively promote our atheistic attitude for others to adopt.
 
I think the question whether “God” exists or an afterlife exists are actually two separate questions. An afterlife might very well be a natural phenomenon and it may exist without any god having created it. Also, some creator god may exist without having created an afterlife.
Excellent point. I myself am much more confident of the existence of God than I am of an afterlife. I take the latter on faith as part of the Christian package.

Edwin
 
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