Atomic Bomb did not save lives

[John_Pascendi]

I am always perplexed by this argument- DC is the head of our government and military, so if, shall we say the Taliban, were to manage the unthinkable and nuke/dirty bomb it, would you consider it a horrific act of terrorism or a legitimate military strike?

…How anyone of sound mind can say that Truman was right in anything.he defended Alger Hiss,he fired MacArthur for trying to either win in Korea or get out and he then sold out free China to the reds…notice boys and girls how after the war that saved the world for communism…hollyweird started making movies that depicted world wide disaster because of atomic bombs and how peace at any price is more desireable…this led the way to the phony october surprise cuban missle crisis a few years later! Japan also approached the Vatican for peace overtures and Romes note on that was tossed into the garbage can. A simple dropping of the bomb on a remote island would have done the trick but FDRs and Harrys buddies in Russia needed to toss out Japan …re Manchuria and Korea so that it could sovietize china…I refer listeners to a letter from Bullet to Knox in the early 30s in which he predicted what was going to happen…right up to good ole Joe Stalin declaring war on Japan just before it folded sh he could take over there as he did in Berlin…also when the nuetrality act was disbanded war was on its way…I have a speech by Cong.Hall in which he predicted war ,as planned by FDR.soon,it was published in my local paper on Nov.of 1941…yes just a week before Pearl Harbor,I have shown this headlined article about our congressman to many and they are amazed how it was all planned…Pearl Harbor was a set up…Marshall sent the message that the planes were heading for the Pearl by commercial means on purpose so that it would arrive too late to save the men and it did…etc etc…lets all bow and worship FDR the man who was silent on the holocaust…as was lady of the century Eleanor…but we must never contradict our masters…2+2= what ever they want us to !..Just now I saw a horrible smear of Lincoln on PBS13…and this so called Prof.declared the Abe was silent during the 1840s and 50s on slavery…this professor never heard of Lincolns great speech condemning the lynching of Lovejoy by a white mob…oh well…the left and its agenda…

 

[GKC]

A brief follow-up:

GKC: I believe you stated this in last year’s thread:

*According to Frank (pp. 17-18), prior to 10 March 1945, air raids on Tokyo had totaled 1292 deaths. In the single night of 9-10 March, the deaths were a minimum of 79,466, by count. Which includes only identified, buried, cremated or claimed bodies. *

It is perhaps relevant to note that the difference in casualties and effectiveness of the B-29 bombing raids were due directly to Gen. LeMay’s drastic change in strategy; from high-altitude conventional bombing to low-altitude incendiary bombing.

It seems the B-29s were just not that good at high-altitude night-time bombing, but mercilessly effective in spreading incendiaries in a city built of wood and paper.

It is also interesting to note that in these last several months of the war, the Japanese Air Force was virtually obliterated, and actual bombing of cities would be preceded by Allied leafleting – Japanese would actually be told that their city was going to be bombed in a matter of days, and that they should evacuate, and further, that the war was directed not at them, but at the military and the ruling military junta. It is difficult to imagine a more considerate bombing campaign.

Yes, LeMay tried Hansell’s standard high-level bombing, but after a few tries (I could check just how few), switched to low-level and incendiaries. There was a little more to the story, but that’s accurate.

Part of the problem with high level bombing related to the high level air turbulence that affected the drops. Once the teething problems on the B-29s had been overcome, esp. the tendency for engine fires, they were quite adequate as high level bombers, but not so good in that particular environment.

You are correct about the general approach, as to dropping pamphlets, but I’d have to check to see how wide-spread that was. It certainly was done.

GKC

 

[GKC]

First, the nature of the attack, nuclear or otherwise, is irrelevant, whether a ‘dirty bomb’ or a jihadist with a dynamite vest. Second, the Taliban is* per se* a terrorist organisation, no different than Hezbullah, the IRA, or the FALN. Therefore, any attack by the Taliban on US territory or personnel is a terrorist strike. In contrast, if during WW2 Germany or Japan had managed to attack our capitol, yes, that would have been a ‘legitimate’ military strike.

Finally, why are you ‘perplexed’ at the proposition that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets? Do you deny that entirely, or do you not understand the assertions? They were military targets, just as Pearl Harbor was. Period.

Next?

For example, and off the top of my head, before morning coffee, Hiroshima was the primary embarkation port for troops/supplies going to Kyushu. At the time of the bombing, military strength in the city was around 45,000.

And, of course, Nagasaki was the military headquarters for the defense of Kyushu. Which was the landing site for the opening of DOWNFALL, Operation Olympic, scheduled for 2+ months later. And the site of large military support facilities, such as the Mitsubishi plants.

Now for coffee.

GKC

 

[wabrams]

…he fired MacArthur for trying to either win in Korea or get out

MacArthur wanted to nuke China, which in turn would have drawn the Russians in.

 

[tjm190]

First, the nature of the attack, nuclear or otherwise, is irrelevant, whether a ‘dirty bomb’ or a jihadist with a dynamite vest. Second, the Taliban is* per se* a terrorist organisation, no different than Hezbullah, the IRA, or the FALN. Therefore, any attack by the Taliban on US territory or personnel is a terrorist strike. In contrast, if during WW2 Germany or Japan had managed to attack our capitol, yes, that would have been a ‘legitimate’ military strike.

Finally, why are you ‘perplexed’ at the proposition that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets? Do you deny that entirely, or do you not understand the assertions? They were military targets, just as Pearl Harbor was. Period.

Next?

The Taliban is a governmental organization, albiet one that has lost control of it’s area of governance- in the same league as the government of Taiwan.

I was generally not aware that if a city has military value, suddenly that entire city is fair game- aka, simply living in DC at a time of war makes you fair game. Traditional bombing allows you to limit your bombing to military institutions- for example, if a school in Hiroshima had been hit by a conventional bomb that would have been bad- the school is not a military target. However, the fact that that same school was leveled by a nuclear shockwave and then incinerated is just peachy?

Pearl Harbor was a port, and ships were targeted- targeting a city is not the same as targeting a base. (Also, the vast majority of civilian casualties were actually from American shells landing in civilian areas)

 

[edwest2]

Thanks for posting that link. I spent a lot of time in that thread, the subject of the atomic bombs being a hobby of mine. I was wondering if the same sort of lack historical knowledge would occur again, as the anniversary of the end of the war approached. I see it did.

I won’t get into it again(it’s pointless), beyond saying that the use of the bombs, historically, was the less costly method to en the war of any that could have been used. As I have done many times, I suggest a reading of Frank’ DOWNFALL, the best overall history of what happened and why, for a start to comprehend why that’s so. And also one might Newman’s TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT and ENOLA GAY AND THE COURT OF HISTORY Gruhl’s IMPERIAL JAPAN’S WORLD WAR TWO:1931-1945, Maddox’s WEAPONS FOR VICTORY: THE HIROSHIMA DECISION. A book edited by Maddox, HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY: THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM is especially good, but DOWNFALL is essential.

I’ve been studying this subject for a long time too. The action was entirely suspicious. German V-1s were copied and were ready for use pre-invasion. Ford made the engine, Willis Overland the airframe. I’ve read Downfall as well and I find the entire planning scenario suspect as well. Napalm was also available.

God bless,
Ed

 

[cthulhubryan]

The Taliban is a governmental organization, albiet one that has lost control of it’s area of governance- in the same league as the government of Taiwan.

I was generally not aware that if a city has military value, suddenly that entire city is fair game- aka, simply living in DC at a time of war makes you fair game. Traditional bombing allows you to limit your bombing to military institutions- for example, if a school in Hiroshima had been hit by a conventional bomb that would have been bad- the school is not a military target. However, the fact that that same school was leveled by a nuclear shockwave and then incinerated is just peachy?

What is interesting is that whether or not you agree with dropping atomic (not nuclear) weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the biggest villain in WWII air wars was Great Britain. They even knighted Arthur ‘butcher’ Harris for what he did in his raids. He killed more children in Hamburg than total people killed at Hiroshima.

 

[GKC]

What is interesting is that whether or not you agree with dropping atomic (not nuclear) weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the biggest villain in WWII air wars was Great Britain. They even knighted Arthur ‘butcher’ Harris for what he did in his raids. He killed more children in Hamburg than total people killed at Hiroshima.

No he didn’t. See Middlebrook’s THE BATTLE OF HAMBURG. The best estimates of deaths in the two British raids in July 1943 is around 45,000+. One source Middlebrook cites included a percentage breakdown of around 1/4 of that total number. If the ratio held true for the whole, around 5400 children died.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I’ve been studying this subject for a long time too. The action was entirely suspicious. German V-1s were copied and were ready for use pre-invasion. Ford made the engine, Willis Overland the airframe. I’ve read Downfall as well and I find the entire planning scenario suspect as well. Napalm was also available.

God bless,
Ed

Then I conclude you didn’t read it closely enough. I’ve read DOWNFALL, as noted, and lots of other titles, that I have suggested. My collection in this area runs to over 60 books and additional studies. My conclusions are as stated. Any other action would have led to far more deaths, across the entire Pacific theater. Two planes, two bombs. No more war. Good.

GKC

Added: I overlooked the V-1 remark. Yes, we made a few. That was the JB-2 Loon. So?

 

[edwest2]

Then I conclude you didn’t read it closely enough. I’ve read DOWNFALL, as noted, and lots of other titles, that I have suggested. My collection in this area runs to over 60 books and additional studies. My conclusions are as stated. Any other action would have led to far more deaths, across the entire Pacific theater. Two planes, two bombs. No more war. Good.

GKC

Added: I overlooked the V-1 remark. Yes, we made a few. That was the JB-2 Loon. So?

Well, I disagree. The US had access to tons of German nerve gas packed in artillery shells and ready to go. I’m skeptical the United States had more than the two bombs they dropped.

God bless,
Ed

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Couldn’t agree more. Truman called it…

Then I conclude you didn’t read it closely enough. I’ve read DOWNFALL, as noted, and lots of other titles, that I have suggested. My collection in this area runs to over 60 books and additional studies. My conclusions are as stated. Any other action would have led to far more deaths, across the entire Pacific theater. Two planes, two bombs. No more war. Good.

GKC

Added: I overlooked the V-1 remark. Yes, we made a few. That was the JB-2 Loon. So?

 

[GKC]

Well, I disagree. The US had access to tons of German nerve gas packed in artillery shells and ready to go. I’m skeptical the United States had more than the two bombs they dropped.

God bless,
Ed

As of that date, they didn’t. The third bomb was scheduled for delivery in the last week in August, to the 509th on Tinian. The production schedule, according to MG Groves, would have made around 7-8 more available by the scheduled time of OLYMPIC, in November. And to show that things could have been much, much worse, consideration was given to using some of them as support for the landings on Kyushu, so great was the concern over the increased numbers of Japanese troops that were to be opposing the landing (from an estimated ratio of 3-1, in the US favor in June, to an accurately estimated ratio of 1-1 by August, a recipe for disaster. See Drea’s MACARTHUR’S ULTRA.

You would have preferred gas to be used?

GKC

 

[GKC]

Couldn’t agree more. Truman called it…

You’ve found me. Only topic I get agitated about. And one, like Hank and like Apostolicae Curae, that forms a major subsection of my library. Among many other such.

GKC, bookworm

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It irks me as well. I have read the anti-Truman position a lot in here and I couldn’t disagree more with the position of the Truman-haters.

You’ve found me. Only topic I get agitated about. And one, like Hank and like Apostolicae Curae, that forms a major subsection of my library. Among many other such.

GKC, bookworm

 

[cthulhubryan]

No he didn’t. See Middlebrook’s THE BATTLE OF HAMBURG. The best estimates of deaths in the two British raids in July 1943 is around 45,000+. One source Middlebrook cites included a percentage breakdown of around 1/4 of that total number. If the ratio held true for the whole, around 5400 children died.

GKC

I’ll have to read that work. I know that the Queen went to Hamburg a few years ago to apologize for the bombing that even killed children hiding in basements via asphyxiation.

Harris should have been hanged at Nuremburg

 

[GKC]

It irks me as well. I have read the anti-Truman position a lot in here and I couldn’t disagree more with the position of the Truman-haters.

Somewhere up above here, in this year’s posts, there’s a couple of links to two threads from 2008 and 2009. The 2008 is particularly heavy-weight, running close to 50 pages. I quote a lot of facts in there, slaying revisionist codswallop.

Each year, I look, around August, to see if the topic is resurrected. Each year I say I won’t do it again. Each year I do. To some degree.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I’ll have to read that work. I know that the Queen went to Hamburg a few years ago to apologize for the bombing that even killed children hiding in basements via asphyxiation.

Harris should have been hanged at Nuremburg

It’s a fair appraisal, corrects some excesses in figures, and gives an even-handed treatment to the whole issue of area bombing.

Harris should not have been hanged at Nuremburg.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but when you talked about reading “Downfall,” is the movie inspired from it? I have a DVD of an outstanding film made in Germany called “Downfall” (Der Untergang) with subtitles and it’s all about Hitler’s last weeks in the bunker. It is absolutely RIVETING. I can’t take my eyes off it. It’s over 3 hours and boy is it amazingly well done. It’s based on the eye-witness folks in the bunker with Hitler especially his secretary Traudle. It’s just an amazing film. Is the book the same thing or ???

Somewhere up above here, in this year’s posts, there’s a couple of links to two threads from 2008 and 2009. The 2008 is particularly heavy-weight, running close to 50 pages. I quote a lot of facts in there, slaying revisionist codswallop.

Each year, I look, around August, to see if the topic is resurrected. Each year I say I won’t do it again. Each year I do. To some degree.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but when you talked about reading “Downfall,” is the movie inspired from it? I have a DVD of an outstanding film made in Germany called “Downfall” (Der Untergang) with subtitles and it’s all about Hitler’s last weeks in the bunker. It is absolutely RIVETING. I can’t take my eyes off it. It’s over 3 hours and boy is it amazingly well done. It’s based on the eye-witness folks in the bunker with Hitler especially his secretary Traudle. It’s just an amazing film. Is the book the same thing or ???

I’m not familiar with a movie made from it. Though I’ve seen the author interviewed on the Military channel. But it’s definitely not about Hitler and the bunker (though I got some books on that, none of which I can recall).

Full title is DOWNFALL: THE END OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE EMPIRE/Richard Frank (who also did a good book on Guadalcanal). Of all the books in my collection on the end of the Pacific war it is by far the most essential.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, gotcha. I didn’t think it was the same. Honestly have you seen the film I’m talking about though? It’s just a totally stunning film. amazon.com/Downfall-Bruno-Ganz/dp/B0009RCPUC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1281231308&sr=8-1

I’m not familiar with a movie made from it. Though I’ve seen the author interviewed on the Military channel. But it’s definitely not about Hitler and the bunker (though I got some books on that, none of which I can recall).

Full title is DOWNFALL: THE END OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE EMPIRE/Richard Frank (who also did a good book on Guadalcanal). Of all the books in my collection on the end of the Pacific war it is by far the most essential.

GKC