Atomic Bomb In WWII

[Al_Masetti]

Re: the caloric level, and the Communist activities (which during the war were heavily surpressed), try EMBRACING DEFEAT/Dunn, too.

There’s so much out there.

For all that we knew of the build up on Kyushu, by late Nov, and that they had correctly spotted the two major landing areas (not that hard to do), we likely would have invaded. And used the nuclear weapons (around 8-9 was Groves estimate by the end of 1945) as tactical support. I can’t imagine a worse scenario.

GKC

I agree that if we had a large number of nukes by invasion day, … I had read one additional nuke every ten days was added to the inventory … the massed Japanese defenders would have constituted an irresistible target.

There could have been all sort of “delivery issues”. The accuracy/ CEP [circular error probability ] was probably half a mile. The B-29 was a “troubled airplane” suffering from all sorts of mechanical problems … engine failures, engine fires, fuel system malfunctions … one of the actual nuclear delivery planes actually ran out of fuel and had to make an emergency landing on Okinawa, if I recall correctly. Japanese anti-aircraft artillery was accurate and the interceptor aircraft were effective. Newer Japanese aircraft were in the early production stages.

But you’re right; it would have been a terrible mess.

 

[bobzills]

The US has been involved only in limited wars during the lifetimes of most posters here, so I’ll ask once again how, in an all out war, do you separate civilian from military? .

In the case of dropping an A-Bomb on a city, there is no possiblity of avoiding a large number of civilian non-combatant casualties so according to my understanding of Catholic principles it would be immoral and unjust to drop the A-bomb on a city.

 

[GKC]

I agree that if we had a large number of nukes by invasion day, … I had read one additional nuke every ten days was added to the inventory … the massed Japanese defenders would have constituted an irresistible target.

There could have been all sort of “delivery issues”. The accuracy/ CEP [circular error probability ] was probably half a mile. The B-29 was a “troubled airplane” suffering from all sorts of mechanical problems … engine failures, engine fires, fuel system malfunctions … one of the actual nuclear delivery planes actually ran out of fuel and had to make an emergency landing on Okinawa, if I recall correctly. Japanese anti-aircraft artillery was accurate and the interceptor aircraft were effective. Newer Japanese aircraft were in the early production stages.

But you’re right; it would have been a terrible mess.

Minimum of 6 nukes was likely by I Nov. Marshall asked Groves how many, back in Aug.

Neither BOCK’S CAR or ENOLA GAY ran out of fuel. BOCK’S CAR (IIRC; all books are in the other house) had a fuel system problem at take off, and also ran low due to trying to make the primary target in spite of cloud cover beyond specified minimum,. But they didn’t run out of fuel. Interceptors were almost non-existant by the first week in August, not that the thought didn’t cause palpitations on everybody’s part. But both a/c, as with the 509th in general, were not factory run of the mill B-29s, but hand-tooled specials, selected by Tibbets, under the SiIverplate program, during the assembly, and treated like babies.

The problems wouldn’t have been droppping a few nuclear bombs on Kyushu. The problem would have been that they would have been treated as what we think of as tactical nukes, over the edge of what was going to be the forward edge of battle. And we would walk right through the debris and radiation. So we drop nukes and then invade behind them. Worst of all worlds. And it was actively in planning.

And no one knows what the CEP might have been, for some repeated drops, but ENOLA GAY dropped the first bomb within about 1000 ft. of the AP. Admittedly, Ferebee was very, very good.

GKC

 

[joe_clark]

Books, pages, sections and paragraphs. She wrote this and he said that. What does your heart tell you? What does your heart tell you about the morality of dropping an atom bomb on two cities full of soldiers, old people AND INFANTS? The ends clearly do not justify the means. Killing everyone innocent in your path just to get to the people you wish to exterminate, is not just or moral. Today they do not call them casualties, they are called collateral damage. Nice huh? There were people in those cities who if given the chance would have wanted Japan to surrender, but we chose not to hear or see them. This is about lessons learned and as we can see we need to go back to school. We won the battle but did not win the war on peace. Acting in this manner always comes back to haunt you. Sometimes the process is more important than the outcome. My father fought in this war as did yours and bless them all. THEY did what they had to do, but dropping the A-bomb was not one of them. This was a decision moved forward by the armchair warriors.

There were other alternatives, that were discussed here that did not have to include enilating two cities full of people. A blockade would have offered a weakened Japan and maybe their answer would have been different. Patience is also a military tatic that was discarded. It was also discarded in Iraq, and you can see, didn’t work out too well. I fear, that some of our leaders are trying too hard to live in a time that past us by. My way or the highway. No one is really scared of the U.S. anymore. G. Bush jr. took care of that. Negotiation is the way to peace. If the enemy doesn’t understand that, after given a chance, then it will be by their own hand. Negotiation in good faith should be the first alternative.

 

[GKC]

Minimum of 6 nukes was likely by I Nov. Marshall asked Groves how many, back in Aug.

Neither BOCK’S CAR or ENOLA GAY ran out of fuel. BOCK’S CAR (IIRC; all books are in the other house) had a fuel system problem at take off, and also ran low due to trying to make the primary target in spite of cloud cover beyond specified minimum,. But they didn’t run out of fuel. Interceptors were almost non-existant by the first week in August, not that the thought didn’t cause palpitations on everybody’s part. But both a/c, as with the 509th in general, were not factory run of the mill B-29s, but hand-tooled specials, selected by Tibbets, under the SiIverplate program, during the assembly, and treated like babies.

The problems wouldn’t have been droppping a few nuclear bombs on Kyushu. The problem would have been that they would have been treated as what we think of as tactical nukes, over the edge of what was going to be the forward edge of battle. And we would walk right through the debris and radiation. So we drop nukes and then invade behind them. Worst of all worlds. And it was actively in planning.

And no one knows what the CEP might have been, for some repeated drops, but ENOLA GAY dropped the first bomb within about 1000 ft. of the AP. Admittedly, Ferebee was very, very good.

GKC

Added: Correcting myself. I was wrong, you correct, on the fuel. I thumbed through Sweeny’s WAR’S END. The solenoid problem in the special reserve fuel bladder in the rear bay trapped 600 gallons, as I recalled. And the attempts to bomb the primary target used more, before they broke for Nagasaki. And making it to Okinawa was a near thng, after that.

Memory is the 2nd thing to go. IIRC.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Books, pages, sections and paragraphs. She wrote this and he said that. What does your heart tell you? What does your heart tell you about the morality of dropping an atom bomb on two cities full of soldiers, old people AND INFANTS? The ends clearly do not justify the means. Killing everyone innocent in your path just to get to the people you wish to exterminate, is not just or moral. Today they do not call them casualties, they are called collateral damage. Nice huh? There were people in those cities who if given the chance would have wanted Japan to surrender, but we chose not to hear or see them. This is about lessons learned and as we can see we need to go back to school. We won the battle but did not win the war on peace. Acting in this manner always comes back to haunt you. Sometimes the process is more important than the outcome. My father fought in this war as did yours and bless them all. THEY did what they had to do, but dropping the A-bomb was not one of them. This was a decision moved forward by the armchair warriors.

There were other alternatives, that were discussed here that did not have to include enilating two cities full of people. A blockade would have offered a weakened Japan and maybe their answer would have been different. Patience is also a military tatic that was discarded. It was also discarded in Iraq, and you can see, didn’t work out too well. I fear, that some of our leaders are trying too hard to live in a time that past us by. My way or the highway. No one is really scared of the U.S. anymore. G. Bush jr. took care of that. Negotiation is the way to peace. If the enemy doesn’t understand that, after given a chance, then it will be by their own hand. Negotiation in good faith should be the first alternative.

My heart tells me that ending the war, quickly, with approx 80% fewer casualties of all sorts, military, civilians, young, old, infants, male, female, Allied, Japanese, captive native populations, POWS, even Russians, was indeed the moral path. The people, of all sorts, not killed, are called survivors

For every month the war continued, even at the level it was then, approx. 100,000 casualties of all sorts were suffered, throughout the Pacific theater. No one wanted to exterminate anyone. What was wanted was the end to killing. What the people in any given place in Japan might have wished had no bearing on the issue of surrender. That lay totally in the hands of 3 members of the committe for the direction of the war. And even the 2nd bomb did not cause them to yield. It took the Emperor’s voice to do it.

Knowing what he wrote, or what he said, is the essence of understanding history. As I’ve pointed out in this lengthy thread before.

GKC

 

[bobzills]

Books, pages, sections and paragraphs. She wrote this and he said that. What does your heart tell you? What does your heart tell you about the morality of dropping an atom bomb on two cities full of soldiers, old people AND INFANTS? The ends clearly do not justify the means. Killing everyone innocent in your path just to get to the people you wish to exterminate, is not just or moral. .

My heart and my understanding of Catholic teaching tells me that you are absolutely right and the apologists for dropping the A-Bomb are absolutely wrong. In addition to the immoral and gravely wrong mass murder of thousands of innocent people, the dropping of the A-bomb on Japan set a bad precedent to the world that the way to pressure an enemy to surrender unconditionally is by killing thousands of innocent civilians.

 

[pa226p]

This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

                                                                                                 --John Steinbeck
                                                                                                        “The Law”

It is easy to arm chair quarterback a fight, actually fighting and winning is a whole different story.

 

[bobzills]

This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

                                                                                                 --John Steinbeck
                                                                                                        “The Law”

It is easy to arm chair quarterback a fight, actually fighting and winning is a whole different story.

Well, in your opinion then, is it OK to destroy whole cities with their civilian inhabitants in order to pressure an enemy to unconditional surrender?

 

[wabrams]

Well, in your opinion then, is it OK to destroy whole cities with their civilian inhabitants in order to pressure an enemy to unconditional surrender?

It is ok when those cities are part of that countries war effort and those cities contain an Army Division and a major port used by the military.

My heart and my understanding of Catholic teaching tells me that you are absolutely right and the apologists for dropping the A-Bomb are absolutely wrong. In addition to the immoral and gravely wrong mass murder of thousands of innocent people, the dropping of the A-bomb on Japan set a bad precedent to the world that the way to pressure an enemy to surrender unconditionally is by killing thousands of innocent civilians.

That precedent was set a couple of thousand years ago, so don’t play the “America is evil” card.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Memory is the 2nd thing to go. IIRC.

GKC

On the other hand, retirement is the neverending coffee break!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Memory is the 2nd thing to go. IIRC.

GKC

On the other hand, retirement is the neverending coffee break!

 

[Al_Masetti]

There were other alternatives, that were discussed here that did not have to include enilating two cities full of people. A blockade would have offered a weakened Japan and maybe their answer would have been different.

Read Hastings’ description of the Japanese psyche and ethos and culture as he writes in huge detail in “Retribution”.

One can hypothesize that “maybe the answer would have been different” … but when you’re actually in combat, “maybe this and maybe that” doesn’t cut it.

By 1945, we had had years of actual experience with the martial spirit of the Japanese. There was absolutely no indication of any lessening of their desire to fight to the end.

Read “Retribution” … It may not change your mind, but it will provide some perspective on what was actually going on at the time.

 

[RWMorris]

… Patience is also a military tatic that was discarded. It was also discarded in Iraq, and you can see, didn’t work out too well …

Iraq, from the beginning, was, and is a success, against a determined enemy that refused to surrender.

As for your contention about patience and negotiation, following are a few quotes from some “armchair” warriors:

an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently will always succeed better than a perfect plan.

• Major General George S. Patton

War is cruel and you cannot refine it.

• General William Tecumseh Sherman, US Civil War,1864

Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay its price.

• Sun Tzu, about 200 BC

 

[bobzills]

Well, in your opinion then, is it OK to destroy whole cities with their civilian inhabitants in order to pressure an enemy to unconditional surrender?

It is ok when those cities are part of that countries war effort and those cities contain an Army Division and a major port used by the military.

I do not agree with you and the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not agree
“Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation.”
CCC2314
Clearly then, it is contrary to the law of God to use an A-bomb destroy a whole city or a vast area with inhabitants.

 

[bobzills]

Iraq, from the beginning, was, and is a success, against a determined enemy that refused to surrender.

This is off the topic of the discussion of the use of the A-Bomb in WWII. But of course, the Iraq war from the beginning to the end was a complete and total failure and an immoral and unjust war since it was started on false pretenses and caused the death of thousands of innocent people. And it was not in accord with the statement of Our Divine Lord, the Prince of Peace: "“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:9).

 

[RWMorris]

I do not agree with you and the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not agree
“Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation.”
CCC2314
Clearly then, it is contrary to the law of God to use an A-bomb destroy a whole city or a vast area with inhabitants.

I do not agree with you and your indiscriminate use of the CCC to justify your pacifism. The use of atomic weapons in WW II were not indiscriminate. They were used against legitimate industrial, transportation, communication, and military targets. They saved lives, many hundreds of thousands of lives.

bobzills:

… But of course, the Iraq war from the beginning to the end was a complete and total failure and an immoral and unjust war since it was started on false pretenses and caused the death of thousands of innocent people …

This is, of course, not true. And before you ask, not a single item in your statement is true. And, by the way, joe clark bought it up, not me.

 

[RWMorris]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. It is almost a history lesson in itself. I really learned a lot.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I’ve been reading WWII since the 1950’s starting with the 940.91 section of the library. My recollection was back then it was mostly “memoir” types of books. The 629.1 section was about aviation. Later, I learned there were other relevant sections as well.

The kids I hung out with were also into WW2 history. One fellow found a huge book on WW2 destroyer operations. We all memorized that.

Our interest was stoked by “Victory at Sea” and “Navy Log” on television.

Naval action (at least the books we read) mostly took place in the Pacific Theater and culminated in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. There were a large number of books about Pacific Theater submarine operations … and “flying the Hump” to support B-29 operations.

[We didn’t have much access to British history, so we missed out on a lot of the Battle of the Atlantic anti-submarine action and the HUGE naval campaigns that took place in the Mediterranean.]

Until relatively recently, it was very difficult to get “the big picture” … how much action took place north of the Arctic Circle, for example. And the impact of the “battle of Norway”.

There was relatively little, as I recall, on B-29 operations … I had one flight instructor who flew B-29’s in combat in Korea and another fellow who flew B-29’s in combat over Japan. They didn’t talk too much about it … except for saying how they got chopped up by MiG’s and also how taking off with four new engines was about as close to a death wish as you could get.

Lately, a large number of “new” historians have emerged.

Hastings is one of them.

Norman Davies is another.

Martin Gilbert has been around for a while and his books get better and better. I suspect as time goes by, the authors are able to correlate various research efforts and those efforts tend to fill in a lot of blanks. In addition, a lot of archives are declassified after 50 years so a lot of previously warehoused material becomes available and gets “re-correlated” and added to the mix to fill in the “big picture”.

As people die, their children find memoirs and paperwork and diaries (it was considered treason … according to my father … during WW2 to keep a diary when in combat … it might get captured by the enemy. So the men who kept diaries didn’t tell anyone and if their children recognized the importance or value of the documents when they were discovered in the back of a closet or in an attic or basement when cleaning out the veteran’s house, then that gets added to the stock of knowledge.)

Some researchers have taken on projects to record oral histories from WWII, Korea, and Cold War veterans … and those bits add to the mix.

Recently the CIA declassified a lot of OSS archives [Moe Berg, Julia Childs, etc.] And NSA has been publishing papers and releasing them at their museum in Laurel, Md. NSA even has two unclassified societies open to the public.

Tons of stuff is coming available.

… Which makes it double important to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. … Did Japan really develop an atomic bomb? Did Moe Berg really get sent to interview German nuclear physicists to determine their progress and to perform assassinations, if necessary …

Hastings, for example, constantly refers to the extravagant use of money by the United States … pursuing multiple research projects … having two or three attack strategies in the Pacific … done at the same time. Fielding 100 aircraft carriers by the end of the war.

For example, the B-29 had a backup airplane, the B-32, which actually flew the last mission of WW2. [It was attacked by a swarm of Japanese interceptors … and it shot them all down!]

And the U.S. followed multiple research paths for the atomic bomb. Extravagant. But we had the resources. Our economy was ten times the size of Japan’s economy.

 

[peary1]

Did the Church support or condemn the use of the atomic bomb (after it was dropped of course) at the end of WWII?

All I know is that, after hundreds of years of Jesuit missionary work, the two largest Christian communities in Japan were located in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These are the two cities upon which the United States dropped the bombs.