Atonement (MERGED)

[Abu]

TheInquisitor
I grew up with the Penal substitution doctrine and and I am having trouble understanding the Catholic version (satisfaction view?) of how it works and how it differs from what I grew up with.

As stated by Paul, for our salvation, what is lacking is what only we can do, for the sake of His Body which is the Church; no one has said that there is anything lacking in Christ’s redemptive passion and crucifixion which has enabled the possibility of our salvation. How could there be? Christ was acting for the whole human race, not instead of, not as a substitute. “He bore our sins in His own Body on the Cross.” (1Pet. 2:29). What did Paul say must happen because Christ is the one mediator? “Supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men” (1Tim 2:1-5). Thus we are all called to be co-redeemers. [See *Christ In Eclipse, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 105-108).

Paul has restated the problem of suffering – how not to waste it but how to make use of it. Hebrews tells us that Jesus entered heaven on our behalf (9:24), and Paul explains (Rom 8:34) that He is at the right hand of the Father, “interceding for us,” pleading with God for us; and “He holds His priesthood permanently.” (Heb 7:24). That is precisely why His continuing priesthood breaks through to our altars at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Bride, His Church.

We are called to be coredeemers with Christ: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1Tim 2:5). And because Christ is the one Mediator St Paul commands “supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.” (1 Tim 2:1). That’s the Mass. The Mass “is beyond compare the most important work Christ does through His Church: and it is our privilege to join the priest and so join Christ Himself in the offering He is making in heaven.” (Frank Sheed, Christ In Eclipse, Sheed and Ward, 1978, p 107).

So we are all called to be coredeemers with Him, and that is why His Church has given the title of Coredemptrix to His Mother, as the holiest of those He has redeemed, and worship at Mass with reception of Jesus Himself is incomparable.

 

[Roger12345]

Does the Catholic Church teach substitutionary atonement? That is that Christ fulfilled the law, died for our sins, and when we believe and our baptized Christ’s life and sacrifice is substituted for our sins and we are saved?

 

[SteveGC]

Does the Catholic Church teach substitutionary atonement? That is that Christ fulfilled the law, died for our sins, and when we believe and our baptized Christ’s life and sacrifice is substituted for our sins and we are saved?

Basically, yes. The Church I think calls it more of a vicarious satisfaction. Christ offered His life to God as a sacrifice of love, the infinite merits of which made satisfaction to the Father for the sins of the world. We are not eternally saved by the sacrifice alone, but rather by our lifelong active faith in Him who was sacrificed for us.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Well the first point is that the very concepts of celebrating the birth of a god, of marking a god’s death and ressurection, earth as a place where a god would walk and live as a separate entity with a separate name, limited in form and able to be conceived in a human form, limited in power for the very way of redemption of sin, the god making the sacrifice to man rather than man sacrificing to the god, for a sin of man, the use of human blood for a human sacrifice, all of these concepts are an anathema to Jewish monotheistic belief and to God’s Torah given a Mt. Sinai, not as a revelation to an individual or to twelve individuals but before the entire Jewish nation in an everlasting covenant.

The problem with Judaism is that it is incomplete without the New Testament. Understand that the Old Testament is filled with typology and shadows of what was to come. The Old Testament (Covenant) is fulfilled in the New Testament (Covenant). If you go to the very first Book of the Bible (Genesis) you will find the promise God made to man, and upon which all of Salvation History is built upon—the promise of sending a redeemer (Genesis 3:15). This redeemer is none other than God becoming man.

The Prophecy of Isaiah gives us a glimpse of who this redeemer will be:

*"…he will be called Wonderful Counselor, **Mighty God, Everlasting Father, ***Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

How He would atone for our sins:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

And that the Savior, the promised Messiah—the King is God Himself:

*I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. . . This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. . . I am the LORD, your Holy One [Messiah], Israel’s Creator, your King.” --Isaiah 43:11-15
*

1. The concept of vicarious atonement, the idea that one person may atone for the sins of another,is rejected in the Jewish scriptures. Moses, the greatest of all prophets,offered to erase himself from God’s book for the Jewish people and God refused. Each person is responsible for their own sins (Exodus 32:33 - 35)and see Ezekiel 18:21-23,27-28)

That’s the reason why God Himself became man. You see, God is Goodness, Truth and Love itself. When He made Man in His Image and Likeness, which simply means that Man has an intellect. The purpose of the intellect is Truth (GOD) and the purpose of Man’s Will is goodness and love (GOD) Thus we are to serve God with all our heart and all our strength.Thus a vivid crucifix is a reminder of God’s great love for us and of the horror of sin. Sin is the misuse of both intellect and will, and is a great offense against God. Thus,* “we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles” 1 Cor. 1:23*

Furthermore, non-Christians often are presented with an incomplete and false Christianity/erroneous theology, courtesy of self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters. What’s more, thee problem with Protestantism is that protestants unwittingly put their trust in Martin Luther–an ex-Catholic priest who took it upon himself to remove sacred books from the Bible. (Luther removed 7 Old Testament books, based upon what the European Jews of his day considered part of their canon of Scripture.) Luther did not realize that the European Jews of his day were using a canon assembled in the year 90 AD (long after the resurrection and the establishment of the Church) when the unconverted Jews who rejected Jesus Christ dismissed the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament). Most of Jesus’ quotes from the Old Testament were from the Septuagint, and one of these books was the *Book of Wisdom *which has describes the prophecy about the suffering messiah:

Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraids us with transgressions of the law, and divulges against us the sins of our way of life. He boasts that he has the knowledge of God, and calls himself the son of God. He has become a censurer of our thoughts. He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different. We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstains from our ways as from filthiness, and he prefers the latter end of the just,* and glories that he has God for his father. **Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words." Wisdom 2:12-20
*

 

[Catholic_Dude]

My point is, this verse seems to indicate itself that blood isn’t required for forgiveness of sins. I see Jewish apologetics use this in order to say that Christ’s sacrifice was not necessary if this the case, how do I refute this?

Sorry I didn’t keep up with this thread. Did you read my Post#6?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

1. The concept of vicarious atonement, the idea that one person may atone for the sins of another, is rejected in the Jewish scriptures. Moses, the greatest of all prophets ,offered to erase himself from God’s book for the Jewish people and God refused. Each person is responsible for their own sins (Exodus 32:33 - 35)and see Ezekiel 18:21-23,27-28)

That’s not accurate. Moses and Phinehas are both explicitly said to have made atonement for Israel’s sins.

1. In Judaism blood was never the only way to atone for sin

1. Animal sacrifices in the Temple were only permitted for unintentional sin (Numbers 15:27, Leviticus 4:27,28, 5:18)

1. While there were guilt offerings for the collective of the Jewish people on Yom Kippur, animal sacrifice was never permitted in Judaism for intentional sin. That would be immoral. Imagine if you could commit a horrible intentional act and all you had to do was to sacrifice an animal. This would lead to horrible behavior.

Overall, true.

King Solomon who built the first Temple and began the temple sacrificial system prophesied that someday the Jews would be exiled from Judea and that in exile confessional prayer alone would bring about atonement for all sins (1 Kings 8:46-50, 2 Chronicles 6:36-39)

But this wasn’t speaking of a 2,000 year span; only the time needed to get back to rebuild the (Second) Temple.

In exile without a Temple the Prophet Hosea in Hosea 14:3 that prayer would substitute for the sacrifice of bulls
"קְחוּ עִמָּכֶם דְּבָרִים, וְשׁוּבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה; אִמְרוּ אֵלָיו, כָּל-תִּשָּׂא עָו‍ֹן וְקַח-טוֹב, וּנְשַׁלְּמָה פָרִים, שְׂפָתֵינוּ.
Take words with you and return to Hashem`say to Him, "May You forgive all iniquity and accept good [intentions], and let our lips substitute for bulls. (Christian translators try to obscure the verse and the phrase “let our lips substitute for bulls” because since prayer replaced animal sacrifice after the destruction of the Temple then the whole idea of the Jesus sacrifice is irrelevant).

I don’t agree with that conclusion, nor does it affect the need for Christ’s sacrifice. The idea that large portions of the Torah would become irrelevant some day and Sacrifice totally vanish from the Jewish scene is not a valid conclusion to come to. It makes a mockery of the Torah, Temple, and Levitical Priesthood.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

How does the protestant view of Penal Substitution differ from the Catholic view? I grew up with the Penal substitution doctrine and and I am having trouble understanding the Catholic version (satisfaction view?) of how it works and how it differs from what I grew up with.

See the link in my signature, and also see THIS post. Penal Substitution is a Protestant invention, thoroughly unbiblical and not part of Catholicism.

Penal substitution from what I learned is that the penalty for sin was completely required. The sacrifice of Christ is a legal transaction so that God wouldn’t punish us. Either we get punished or He does. I thought this was what most Christians believed but it seems Catholics have a different view of this that I don’t quite understand and am having trouble finding the difference.

The key is the distinction between atoning, forgiving, and thus not punishing (Catholic view) versus transferring the punishment, inflicting it on another, and calling that “forgiveness” (Protestant view).

Does the Catholic Church teach substitutionary atonement? That is that Christ fulfilled the law, died for our sins, and when we believe and our baptized Christ’s life and sacrifice is substituted for our sins and we are saved?

See the link above.

 

[Abu]

Roger12345 #40
Does the Catholic Church teach substitutionary atonement? That is that Christ fulfilled the law, died for our sins, and when we believe and our baptized Christ’s life and sacrifice is substituted for our sins and we are saved?

No, Christ redeemed us – to be saved we have to be coredeemers with Him.

See post #39.

 

[Luvtosew]

As stated by Paul, for our salvation, what is lacking is what only we can do, for the sake of His Body which is the Church; no one has said that there is anything lacking in Christ’s redemptive passion and crucifixion which has enabled the possibility of our salvation. How could there be? Christ was acting for the whole human race, not instead of, not as a substitute. “He bore our sins in His own Body on the Cross.” (1Pet. 2:29). What did Paul say must happen because Christ is the one mediator? “Supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men” (1Tim 2:1-5). Thus we are all called to be co-redeemers. [See *Christ In Eclipse

, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 105-108).

Paul has restated the problem of suffering – how not to waste it but how to make use of it. Hebrews tells us that Jesus entered heaven on our behalf (9:24), and Paul explains (Rom 8:34) that He is at the right hand of the Father, “interceding for us,” pleading with God for us; and “He holds His priesthood permanently.” (Heb 7:24). That is precisely why His continuing priesthood breaks through to our altars at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Bride, His Church.

We are called to be coredeemers with Christ: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1Tim 2:5). And because Christ is the one Mediator St Paul commands “supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.” (1 Tim 2:1). That’s the Mass. The Mass “is beyond compare the most important work Christ does through His Church: and it is our privilege to join the priest and so join Christ Himself in the offering He is making in heaven.” (Frank Sheed, Christ In Eclipse, Sheed and Ward, 1978, p 107).

So we are all called to be coredeemers with Him, and that is why His Church has given the title of Coredemptrix to His Mother, as the holiest of those He has redeemed, and worship at Mass with reception of Jesus Himself is incomparable.

Talk about being confused, well I am. Were saved by Calvary but were not really.

 

[Abu]

Luvtosew
Talk about being confused, well I am. Were saved by Calvary but were not really

Naturally, because you have been misinformed, and by taking the time and trouble to assent to the truths expressed by the great St Paul you may come to see the wisdom and understand the truths.

By being “redeemed” heaven was reopened for us after the Fall, by Christ’s Passion and death now St Paul says “work out your salvation in fear and trembling”.(Phil 2:12)

 

[Luvtosew]

Naturally, because you have been misinformed, and by taking the time and trouble to assent to the truths expressed by the great St Paul you may come to see the wisdom and understand the truths.

By being “redeemed” heaven was reopened for us after the Fall, by Christ’s Passion and death now St Paul says “work out your salvation in fear and trembling”.(Phil 2:12)

Misinformed yes apparently as a Catholic for many years.

This statement by St Paul
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

means that he has to work to spread the word of the gosple teaching about Christ, which he is going to endure physical and mental suffering doing.

I am not sure I take the verse “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” like you do. I take it to have great reverance for the Lord and joy and love and worship and great contentness.

also I"m not sure what you mean by we are co-redemptors. I get the impression that what Christ did at Calvary was not enough.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I"m not sure what you mean by we are co-redemptors. I get the impression that what Christ did at Calvary was not enough.

Ask yourself, why did Christ say that you must carry your own cross --and if you don’t you cannot be His disciple? Carry the cross? Christ carried His cross to be crucified and to die on it. Where are you to carry your cross? For what purpose? What good comes out of it?

 

[Abu]

#49
in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions….means that he has to work to spread the word of the gosple teaching about Christ, which he is going to endure physical and mental suffering doing.
I"m not sure what you mean by we are co-redemptors. I get the impression that what Christ did at Calvary was not enough.

We are created with free will, therefore we can reject God – if at the point of death, we are not saved – that is precisely why we need to cooperate with Christ by following our consciences, doing what we know to be right and avoiding what we know to be wrong. That is why St Paul explains that we need to cooperate with Him for our salvation.

As Fr William G Most writes: “Protestants insist strongly that we contribute nothing at all to our own salvation.”

In fact, by not rejecting a good idea received from God we are then moved by grace and, at the same time, moving ourselves through the power of that grace to do the good thus cooperating with God and contributing to our salvation.

The Church has thus called Mary Coredemptix, in Her special role, and we are all coredeemers when we cooperate with God’s graces.
[See *Catholic Apologetics Today, Fr William G Most, TAN Books Chap 20].

I repeat, no one is saying, or has said, that Christ’s Redemption “was not enough” – that’s monstrous – but He created hell for those who knowingly and willingly reject Him.

 

[Luvtosew]

Ask yourself, why did Christ say that you must carry your own cross --and if you don’t you cannot be His disciple? Carry the cross? Christ carried His cross to be crucified and to die on it. Where are you to carry your cross? For what purpose? What good comes out of it?

True, we are to die to self and follow Christ. To accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour means to die to self and follow him. What good comes out of it- we love our neighbor as ourself and Our Lord with our whole being, and put our faith and trust in him. I can do no more for my salvaton.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

True, we are to die to self and follow Christ. To accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour means to die to self and follow him. What good comes out of it- we love our neighbor as ourself and Our Lord with our whole being, and put our faith and trust in him. I can do no more for my salvaton.

So you’re saying that your salvation is contingent on you doing something? Jesus says that *“only those who persevere until the end will be saved.” *

 

[Luvtosew]

So you’re saying that your salvation is contingent on you doing something? Jesus says that *“only those who persevere until the end will be saved.” *

I think I said I can do nothing for my salvation except follow Christ with my heart and soul and believe in him and what he did at Calvary as our Lord and Saviour, and of course confess our sins and repent.

and in your response of what comes out of it,

is to love my neighbor as myself. My sacrifice is my life given to him and my praise and worship to only him.

Whats involed in your salvation, since were both Catholic, is yours the same as mine?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I think I said I can do nothing for my salvation except follow Christ with my heart and soul and believe in him and what he did at Calvary as our Lord and Saviour, and of course confess our sins and repent. and in your response of what comes out of it, is to love my neighbor as myself. My sacrifice is my life given to him and my praise and worship to only him.

Whats involed in your salvation, since were both Catholic, is yours the same as mine?

According to Jesus, the basic plan for salvation is to repent of our sins, turn away from our sin, confess our sins, and follow the commandments, and that only those who persevere until the end would be saved. But Jesus also warned that there are many ways we can lose our salvation. In your view, what do you think are the ways that a Christian can lose his salvation?

 

[Luvtosew]

According to Jesus, the basic plan for salvation is to repent of our sins, turn away from our sin, confess our sins, and follow the commandments, and that only those who persevere until the end would be saved. But Jesus also warned that there are many ways we can lose our salvation. In your view, what do you think are the ways that a Christian can lose his salvation?

Sin against the Holy Spriit which is turning your back on Christ.

Jesus is the only way to salvation, there is no other way. He is not the basic plan , he is our salvation, without him we have no hope.

How can you loose yours.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Sin against the Holy Spriit which is turning your back on Christ. Jesus is the only way to salvation, there is no other way. He is not the basic plan , he is our salvation, without him we have no hope. How can you loose yours.

The Sin against the Holy Spirit is simply the refusal to repent after the Holy Spirit has inspired and offered the grace for repentance. Since we know not when we will die, it is thus necessary to always be in a state of grace so as to not die separated from God.

Grace is a gift from God, but just as any gift, it can be rejected or squandered. The basic plan for salvation is to repent, be baptized, confess and turn away from sin and to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. But believing in the gospel does not simply mean you intellectually accept that it is true; no it’s much more than that; one mus live it with all his heart. Thus the reason why Jesus asked “Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?” – (Luke 6:46) After all, lukewarm believers are an abomination to God, so much so that He will spit them out of his mouth–Rev. 3:16

There are many ways to squander one’s salvation. For example, you may say you believe in Christ, but if you do not forgive others their sins, God will not forgive your sins (Matt. 6:15) God call us to holiness, and through the Sacraments of the Church He gives us the grace to achieve the degree of holiness He set for each of us. If you so much as look at a woman lustfully you’ve committed adultery in your heart. But with God’s grace you can be transformed and become pure and chase in both mind and body.

God does not merely call us to just be saved; He calls us to be fruitful servants for the Kingdom. Jesus tells the parable of the servant who was given the talent and didn’t do anything with it. In the end the master threw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.–Matt: 25:30

There will be many who will be saved through the grace of God by a final repentance on their deathbed, but they will have to undergo much suffering in order to enter the kingdom of God. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 3:13-15, and Jesus speaks of this in Matt. 1834-36, Matt. 5:25-26, etc.

Here’s a short video you might find interesting CLICK HERE TO WATCH
img35.imageshack.us/img35/5862/followmeo.jpg

 

[Luvtosew]

Gabriel,
I agree with everything you say and you said it all so well. I can tell your a spirit filled Christian with a pure love for Our Lord. Yes we must have his words in our hearts, and to be forgiven we must forgive and show mercy for others. Thank you for the video, I can’t watch it now but I will.