Atonement

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I am a protestant, and wanting to understand the catholic perspective on atonement. From my understanding catholicism teaches that Christ did not come to pay the price for all sin, but that he came to become the payment for sin. Is that a correct understanding?
 
Welcome to CAF.

You may find if helpful to visit the following website to find Catholic teaching regarding Jesus’ offering of Himself in atonement for our sins.

Warm regards, God bless you,
Trishie

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm
 
I guess my question would be, what was the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? Was it to pay for sin? Or to become a ransom, and make the payment for sin possible?

God Bless
 
I guess my question would be, what was the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? Was it to pay for sin? Or to become a ransom, and make the payment for sin possible?

God Bless
Welcome to the Forum.

The answer to your question can be adequately answered by Jn 3:16 that Protestants know very well and believed by Catholics too.

Those who believe will be saved. Believe is not just words but with action for we cannot enter the Kingdom by merely saying ‘Lord, Lord’ without showing that belief in action. Thus believing can change in a life of a Christian. One day you may believe but another you may not. We can only pray that we do not loose our belief so that we can truly hold to the promise of being saved.

God bless.
 
The reason I am asking because I had someone tell me this

"[If you believe that Christ’s mission was to pay the punishment for sins, then you must agree with Limited Atonement.

The Catholic Church, though, does NOT teach that Christ “paid the punishment” for sins, but rather, that Christ paid for US (i.e., a ransom). He propitiated the Father with His suffering. Satisfying justice strictly by suffering the just punishment for sins is NOT propitiation. Propitiation has nothing to do with Law and strict justice, but everything to do with mercy.

We can see the teaching in Hebrews 10: “In saying before, ‘Sacrifices, and
oblations, and holocausts for sin Thou wouldest not, neither are they
pleasing to Thee’, which are offered ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Then said I: ‘Behold, I come to do Thy will, O God:’ he taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth.”

We are not saved by the Law, but by mercy and grace brought about by the propitiating sacrifice of Jesus.

It may seem like a subtle point, but it is crucial. The reason James White is wrong, is because he is misunderstanding what propitiation is. Instead, thinking of it according to strict Law-justice.](http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=86&title=What_Qualifies_as_a_Substitution_for_Humanity’s_Sin%3F) "

I was looking for some official catholic resources that stated this…

God Bless
 
I guess my question would be, what was the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion?
“…for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven…For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate…”

That’s it in a nut shell for me. You can get into a long drawn out debate over Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth. Christ died for us and for our salvation.

You should really take the time to read Trishie’s link if you are curious about the Catholic position.

God bless you
 
Thanks, I did read from the link provided. It said “to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” but I don’t want to jump to conclusions. I was hoping to find something with a clear cut teaching on Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth. I am not attempting to get in a debate with anyone here over it, I am just looking into the doctrine(s) for the benefit of my understanding
 
“…for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven…For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate…”

That’s it in a nut shell for me. You can get into a long drawn out debate over Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth. Christ died for us and for our salvation.

You should really take the time to read Trishie’s link if you are curious about the Catholic position.

God bless you
Well said, R_C.

Haven’t seen you in a while. Hope you and yours are well, my friend.

Jon
 
Well said, R_C.

Haven’t seen you in a while. Hope you and yours are well, my friend.

Jon
Thanks Jon. I hope the same for you. I’ve been around just haven’t done much posting. It’s tough to involve yourself in a theological discussion with a 3 year old hanging on your shoulder 😉

God bless
 
Aw, come on now, R.C.! I post constantly and I have a 5, 4, and 3 year old hanging on both shoulders! 😛
Thanks Jon. I hope the same for you. I’ve been around just haven’t done much posting. It’s tough to involve yourself in a theological discussion with a 3 year old hanging on your shoulder 😉

God bless
 
I’m no expert on the Atonement really, but I posted a thread not too many months back on this same topic, inquiring as to what the common Catholic view is on the Atonement. I found it is a mixed bag. I would say many Catholics grab onto Christus Victor and even a few penal substitution. This is my understanding:

St. Anselm’s Satisfaction View of the Atonement: To satisfy divine justice that God has coming to Him, God demands a blood sacrifice that is perfect. Since only a man can give sacrifice to God and satisfy the divine justice that God rightly deserves, God sends His Son as a man to sacrifice Himself as Christ is the perfect sacrifice and is fully man to fullfill the requirement. Law and Honor is the focus on Anselm’s approach. Christ offers perfect penance, suffering, sacrifice, and thus a restoration of the honor due to God
So with Anselm I think the key phrases are “substitutionary,” “restitution,” “honor,” and “sacrifice.”

Penal Subsitution is a more precise type of satisfaction view that some attribute to Augustine but definitely became common place after the Reformation era.

**The Ransom Theory of the Atonement: ** When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, they were enveloped by sin and thus Satan. They became something of his property and dominated by the forces of sin and death. Christ is a ransom paid by God to get humanity back and out of Satan’s grasp and thus restored to the possibility of salvation and sanctification. Anselm rejected this theory and formulated a new one because he couldn’t imagine why God would have to become a man to engineer the ransom and why God would ever owe Satan anything? For Anselm it was about honor, not ransom payments. The key thought behind Ransom Theory is “buying back” I would say from my understanding of it. Christus Victor is a type of Ransom Theory of Atonement.

You have some like St. Athanasius saying that God sent Christ to restore the divine in the human condition and replace the sinful with Godly, a restoration of the image of God within us to set theosis in place.

To this day, from my observation, the Catholic Church isn’t exactly detailed or steadfastly holding to any one of these per se. I happen to hold to the satisfaction model. I’m more Anselmian. I see the Orthodox Church’s focus on Christ just being a divine physician and a healer and a restoration of the divine image in humanity to not be sufficient. Why did Christ have to die in order for that to happen? Looking at the Orthodox theosis/divine image restoration angle, what exactly about blood sacrifice was at all relevent to restore the divine image in humanity? Why death? Why mutilation? Why the scourging? Why the crown of thorns or spit in His face, rejection by His people, falling three times, being beaten and kicked and stripped down, nailed to the cross? This doesn’t fit with “just” a healing or a divine restoration within humanity. Why is this BLOODY episode and journey necessary for that?

In my opinion, Isaiah is largely the key. Christ is a suffering servant who “bears” our sins! It is painfully clear (literally) that Jesus takes on our burdens and our sins on his back, literally and bloodily. He is a sacrificial character who, in the process of being substituted for a sinful humanity, does heal. In the process of this sickening treatment in His Passion, he does restore the divine image. But I think Orthodox Christians ignore the"how" and just look at the outcome not liking the image of sacrifice and Atonement that Isaiah prefigures so obviously. The “suffering servant” is IMO a clear reference to the view of Anselm. Isaiah 53 bolsters the substitutionary Anselmian or even penal substitution views quite well with phrases like–“it was our infirmities that he bore, our suffering that he endured…” and “he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins” and “upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole.” Then also in Isaiah 53 it says “[He was]smitten for the sin of his people” and “he gives his life as an offering for sin” and “their guilt he shall bear.”

Personally I find substitution theory the most logical and Scriptural because of Isaiah. And the way Paul continually refers to the Law as nailed to the Cross and dead to us along with its legal claims, it truly sounds legal, penal, and sacrificial, not just some vague restoration of godliness and opening the doors for theosis. Those are outcomes that ignore the process.

But on the other hand, why does it say in Isaiah 35:10 “Those whom the Lord has ransomed will return and enter Zion singing crowned with everlasting joy?” That has an air of ransom about it obviously as even the word itself is used…In context there God is ransoming His people from the barbarous age of Assyrians and foreign domination. But if God will deliver a ransom in this mode, why not to Satan for all humanity? Just playing devil’s advocate.

I still advocate Anselm and substitution. I hope this helps. God bless in your quest to understand the Atonement. Were you to become Catholic, you would be free to embrace any of these views I believe. I’m sure someone would correct me on that if I am in error. God bless!
Thanks, I did read from the link provided. It said “to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” but I don’t want to jump to conclusions. I was hoping to find something with a clear cut teaching on Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth. I am not attempting to get in a debate with anyone here over it, I am just looking into the doctrine(s) for the benefit of my understanding
 
I am a protestant, and wanting to understand the catholic perspective on atonement. From my understanding catholicism teaches that Christ did not come to pay the price for all sin, but that he came to become the payment for sin. Is that a correct understanding?
What Jesus did was die for all sin. He did pay the price for all sin by his death. But what we have to remember is just because he died for all sin and made it possible for us to be forgiven we are not off the hook.

It is a better understanding to say that Jesus made all things possible by his death we received God’s GRACE.

It is by Grace that all thing’s are now possible for us. But before his death we did not have the perfect grace needed to even begin to become perfected in Christ.

But not by his Grace all thing’s are possible. Before nothing was possible.

By his cross and now Baptism he wiped out Original sin, which before was (name removed by moderator)ossible to reach heaven.

Now the moment we are Baptised all sin is wiped away, I believe we all agree with that. But now we come into actual sin. Now thats a different story.

That is where his by his grace he made it possible through the Sacraments in the Church to have all sin removed. But we must do our part and repent etc.

But now to say that a Person is baptised and then dies right of the bat, then yes, clean slate, your sinless and eligible for heaven.

But now in this world who actually does that happen to. Unfortunately we put ourself in actual sin, which is mortal or venial.

But the point is all sin is wiped out by Christ by his Grace that he got for us by the cross. Or let me say there is no sin that cannot be forgiven if we repent and quit the sin. So yes there is NO sin that is possible to keep us from God now. Only if we choose it that way.
 
As a member of the Jewish faith, I am curious regarding the (Roman) Catholic position about the salvation of those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. I’m fairly certain (but not entirely) that Protestants argue that anyone who does not believe Jesus is Lord and Savior will not be saved, provided they have knowledge about Jesus (that is, young children are automatically saved, as well as those who may live in a country that has no understanding of Jesus). But I’ve heard several differing views from Catholics. Is there an official Church position? Thanks for your reply.
 
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1992

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CHAPTER THREE
GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
 
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace…

Continues at: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1992
 
“I was hoping to find something with a clear cut teaching on Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth.”

Most cradle Catholics will be absolutely clueless as to any understanding of those terms. Converts from Protestanism might be best able to piece together the various pieces and practices of Protestant & Catholic thought and provide an answer for you.

Quite simply, Catholics understand the work of Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament Atonement practices.

In practical application to our lives, we experience Jesus’ fulfillment of the Old Testament Atonement practices (Yom Kippur) through union with Jesus by doing (or not doing) His Commandments and then we atone with Jesus in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, when we receive His absolution, we then join back in union with Him in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
 
Barbkw provided a great link so check it out. Basically through invincible ignorance of the Church and Christ provides the ‘possibility’ of salvation for those of the Jewish faith. God is the only one who can judge the Jewish people’s salvation. But if a Jewish person knows about Christ fully, understands what is taught about Him and His Passion, resurrection, and Gospels, and openly rejects him, they put their salvation in peril. Is it certain doom? Only God knows in the end. As Christians we are given the Great Commission to preach to all nations the Gospel, including the Jewish faith. I hope you find the truth of Christ and that your religion is fulfilled already in Our Saviour. He died for your sins and loves you dearly. God bless!
As a member of the Jewish faith, I am curious regarding the (Roman) Catholic position about the salvation of those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. I’m fairly certain (but not entirely) that Protestants argue that anyone who does not believe Jesus is Lord and Savior will not be saved, provided they have knowledge about Jesus (that is, young children are automatically saved, as well as those who may live in a country that has no understanding of Jesus). But I’ve heard several differing views from Catholics. Is there an official Church position? Thanks for your reply.
 
As a member of the Jewish faith, I am curious regarding the (Roman) Catholic position about the salvation of those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Is there an official Church position?
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**The Church and non-Christians **

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

**The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. **

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men”:339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340
 
“I was hoping to find something with a clear cut teaching on Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Christus Victor so on and so forth.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/e.htm#Expiation

See also: Expiation

Jesus as victim of expiation for human sins, 457, 604, 615-16, 1476, 1992
of sins in Israel, 433, 578
value of expiation through punishment, 2266

(On the website above, the numbers are hot buttons, click on them and they will take you to that section of the Catechism.)
 
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