Atoning for Sins in Judiasm

[Robert6512]

Since Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, how do they atone for their sins? I know back in the day they had the temple and they would sacrifice an animal, but since the temple no longer exists, I was curious how they go about this now.

 

[Loml]

Praying and fasting. Also I don’t think sacrifice was necessary for all sins even back in the day. Maybe just sins which were more serious if I can put it that way.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Since Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, how do they atone for their sins? I know back in the day they had the temple and they would sacrifice an animal, but since the temple no longer exists, I was curious how they go about this now.

You go to a rabbi and this little box and do the confession. and they don’t have a sign of the cross so the rabbi just makes a dot on you with his hand to signify one god and you are absolved. my friend did a jewish confession last week.

 

[Contarini]

Since Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, how do they atone for their sins? I know back in the day they had the temple and they would sacrifice an animal, but since the temple no longer exists, I was curious how they go about this now.

They repent and God forgives them. Or so they believe. Maybe God is not as merciful as they think He is–at least, many Christians seem to think that He isn’t.

Edwin

 

[1234]

Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, is the most solemn and important holiday on the Jewish Calendar. One is supposed to spend it praying and fasting, and many do. One is also supposed to make up for sins of the past year, apologizing to individuals and making restitution. This might involve quite a lot, including financial restitution.

 

[PJM]

=Robert6512;7558981]Since Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, how do they atone for their sins? I know back in the day they had the temple and they would sacrifice an animal, but since the temple no longer exists, I was curious how they go about this now.

I’m afraid that it’s NOT good News. In OT times Yahweh had a system of forgiveness using priest, an sacrifical offerings. HOWEVER:

Luke.22: 20 "And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

2Cor.3: [6] who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life. [14]** But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away". **

Heb. 8: 13 "In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Heb. 7: 19-24 " (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. And it was not without an oath. Those who formerly became priests took their office without an oath, but this one was addressed with an oath, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, “Thou art a priest for ever.’” This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. [Wich passes on to His catholic Priest] The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever”

So ONLY God can know if He forgives there sins. It is questionable. But with God Al things are possible; and ONLY God can read hearts and ententions It certainly is not adhering to th Mndate from Christ in John 20: 19-23, the New Covennt way!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Contarini]

I’m afraid that it’s NOT good News. In OT times Yahweh had a system of forgiveness using priest, an sacrifical offerings. HOWEVER:

Luke.22: 20 "And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

2Cor.3: [6] who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life. [14]** But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away". **

Heb. 8: 13 "In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Heb. 7: 19-24 " (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. And it was not without an oath. Those who formerly became priests took their office without an oath, but this one was addressed with an oath, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, “Thou art a priest for ever.’” This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. [Wich passes on to His catholic Priest] The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever”

So ONLY God can know if He forgives there sins. It is questionable. But with God Al things are possible; and ONLY God can read hearts and ententions It certainly is not adhering to th Mndate from Christ in John 20: 19-23, the New Covennt way!

God Bless,
Pat

So would you agree that God, in your opinion, is less merciful than the Jews think He is?

This seems to follow inevitably from what you say. The Jews think that God can be trusted to forgive them because He is merciful. You say that this is questionable.

Edwin

 

[PJM]

=Contarini;7563030]So would you agree that God, in your opinion, is less merciful than the Jews think He is?

This seems to follow inevitably from what you say. The Jews think that God can be trusted to forgive them because He is merciful. You say that this is questionable.

Edwin

GREAT responce Edwin, THANK YOU.

Not being “a Jew” I can’t speak for them. But the isue really is NOT one of perspective. No, the real issue id God’s Justice, which in an absolute sense in required inorder for God to be “God.” “All and every GOOD thing, Perfected.”

But you say: "Mercy too is a “good thing.” Indeed it it! BUT Mercy; even God’s, have various leveles; whereas an act is either Just or it’s unjust.

So God’s Divine Will in applying His Justice must take precedence over EXTREME acts of Mercy, when the situation calls for it.

They deny Christ; that my friend may be unforgivable sin? **Mark.3: 29 **“but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [means denies the existence of the true God]never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” Because they denined Christ Time of Visitation; they are guilty by association and NOT seeking the TRUTH, which is certainly available to nearly everyone.

So there perspective of God’s Mercy is not the Critial issue. Also; OT Jews thought fearfully of Yahweh; [THE GREAT :I AM!], and would not even utter His name. I think they too count on Justice more than Mercy?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Contarini]

Not being “a Jew” I can’t speak for them. But the isue really is NOT one of perspective. No, the real issue id God’s Justice, which in an absolute sense in required inorder for God to be “God.” “All and every GOOD thing, Perfected.”

But you say: "Mercy too is a “good thing.” Indeed it it! BUT Mercy; even God’s, have various leveles; whereas an act is either Just or it’s unjust.

I could not disagree more. To me it seems clear from Scripture that mercy is God’s final word–the ultimate truth about who God is. Of course in God mercy and justice are one thing. It would be better to say that the limited and imperfect human concept of “mercy” corresponds more precisely to the reality of God than the still more limited and imperfect human concept of “justice.”

Mercy, as St. James reminds us, triumphs over justice. As the Psalmist tells us, God’s tender mercies are over all his works.

I don’t think that the fact that one can be more or less merciful shows that mercy is somehow more contingent and less ultimate than justice. Nor do I agree that justice is not susceptible of levels. For instance, to cut off someone’s hand for theft is, on some level, just. Certainly it is more just than either executing a thief or failing to protect innocent people from theft. But it is not perfectly just. A more merciful policy, which punishes the thief in ways that promote restitution of what was stolen, is also more just.

So God’s Divine Will in applying His Justice must take precedence over EXTREME acts of Mercy, when the situation calls for it.

Non sequitur. Indeed, I think that your position is heretical.

They deny Christ; that my friend may be unforgivable sin? **Mark.3: 29 **

“but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [means denies the existence of the true God]never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” Because they denined Christ Time of Visitation; they are guilty by association and NOT seeking the TRUTH, which is certainly available to nearly everyone.

I think that it is presumptuous to say that Jews today knowingly deny the truth, whatever may have been the case for certain Jewish leaders in Jesus’ own day. And I think the Catholic Church agrees with me on this point.

So there perspective of God’s Mercy is not the Critial issue.

You don’t think it’s ironic and disturbing that Jews have a more merciful view of God than you do? What does it mean to say that the Gospel is good news, if in fact those who believe the Gospel have less confidence in God’s mercy than those who do not?

Also; OT Jews thought fearfully of Yahweh; [THE GREAT :I AM!], and would not even utter His name.

This is true of modern Jews as well.

I think they too count on Justice more than Mercy?

I think not. The priority of mercy over justice is repeatedly affirmed in the OT. Both Jews and Christians have developed the theme further.

Edwin

 

[chosen_people]

You go to a rabbi and this little box and do the confession. and they don’t have a sign of the cross so the rabbi just makes a dot on you with his hand to signify one god and you are absolved. my friend did a jewish confession last week.

If you don’t place a smiley after your post someone might think you were being serious.

In as much as we are talking about intentional sin, even at the time of the Temple, this could not be atoned for through sacrifice. If someone could intentionally commit horrible acts and all they had to do to atone was to sacrifice an animal, this would lead to horrible immoral behaviour.

According to Jewish law, if intentional sin causes injury or loss, restitution to the victim is required, sometimes including a heavy monetary penalty (Leviticus 5:21-26, Numbers 5:6)

After restitution to the victim (where applicable) the only way one attones for intentional sin is through prayer, repentance and charity (Isaiah 55:6-9,Hosea 3:4-5,1 Samuel 15:22,Daniel 4:27,Micah 6:6,Proverbs 16:6,21:3,Psalm 51:16-17)

Prayer, repentance and charity could always be used to redeem unintentional sin but when the Temple was standing, Jews redeemed unintentional sin by animal sacrifice.

 

[SempirVeritas]

Even if blood sacrifice was the only method of atonment for sins

Jesus death doesnt quallify

Torah by NT was still applicable up until the crucificion.

Torah forbids human sacrifice(Jesus being 100%man also)
Torah requires only priests can sacrifice (romans are not priests)
Torah requires sacrifice in the temple (golgotha is not temple)

therefore, since the Torah was still 100% in force, Jesus`s sacrifice was not atonement.​

Contention 2, regardless the precise time in the life of Jesus that the Torah ceased to be in 100% force God clearly rejects human sacrice, requires priests do it for it to be effective, and in the temple, etc etc. If God changed the requirements for acceptable blood sacrifice then God infact changed.​

Contention 3, again supposing blood is the ONLY method of atonement. That means without blood you arent forgiven, and if you arent forgiven and you die well… SO, what happend to all the Jews who died between the first and second temple? Babylonian captivitiy, etc- when there WAS NO sacrifice? if “without blood, no forgivness” is true post second temple, then it was true from Creation Day 1 up to second temple also​

Contention 4, Jesus didnt die by blood loss. asphyxiation etc… For a proper sacrifice- Blood loss is the only method, if you strangle an animal as a sacrifice, the sacrifice is rejected. Furthermore a sharp knife, singular, deep, swift cut to the neck is also required?

 

[Loml]

Even if blood sacrifice was the only method of atonment for sins

Jesus death doesnt quallify

Torah by NT was still applicable up until the crucificion.

Torah forbids human sacrifice(Jesus being 100%man also)
Torah requires only priests can sacrifice (romans are not priests)
Torah requires sacrifice in the temple (golgotha is not temple)

therefore, since the Torah was still 100% in force, Jesus`s sacrifice was not atonement.​

Contention 2, regardless the precise time in the life of Jesus that the Torah ceased to be in 100% force God clearly rejects human sacrice, requires priests do it for it to be effective, and in the temple, etc etc. If God changed the requirements for acceptable blood sacrifice then God infact changed.​

Contention 3, again supposing blood is the ONLY method of atonement. That means without blood you arent forgiven, and if you arent forgiven and you die well… SO, what happend to all the Jews who died between the first and second temple? Babylonian captivitiy, etc- when there WAS NO sacrifice? if “without blood, no forgivness” is true post second temple, then it was true from Creation Day 1 up to second temple also

How about this contention: Jesus’ sacrifice was the will of God and does not require validation.

By the way, traditionally blame is put on the Jewish priests and elders that demanded Jesus be crucified not the Roman soldiers (irrelevant from my point of view I know).

 

[SempirVeritas]

How about this contention: Jesus’ sacrifice was the will of God and does not require validation.

By the way, traditionally blame is put on the Jewish priests and elders that demanded Jesus be crucified not the Roman soldiers (irrelevant from my point of view I know).

contra contention: Islam is the will of God yes, only the will of God happens, but it is not appropriate to assert that your interpretation is Gods interpretation of why it whatever happened happened.

By your same argument, should we not also assume that Islam was the will of God, and that we should accept it as truth without validation? or perhaps random cults?

 

[Loml]

contra contention: Islam is the will of God yes, only the will of God happens, but it is not appropriate to assert that your interpretation is Gods interpretation of why it whatever happened happened.

By your same argument, should we not also assume that Islam was the will of God, and that we should accept it as truth without validation? or perhaps random cults?

Obviously you didn’t understand my post. I never said that everything that happens is God’s will. I made that argument that IF Jesus’ crucifixion was God’s will then it did not need to be justified.

By the way any sacrifice within the restrictions you listed would never be great enough to be a final and eternal sacrifice. The final sacrifice had to be independent of those rules and so it was.

 

[SempirVeritas]

Obviously you didn’t understand my post. I never said that everything that happens is God’s will. I made that argument that IF Jesus’ crucifixion was God’s will then it did not need to be justified.

By the way any sacrifice within the restrictions you listed would never be great enough to be a final and eternal sacrifice. The final sacrifice had to be independent of those rules and so it was.

oh, i did understand your post the first time

yes it was Gods will, but that doesnt mean Christianity is Gods will. everything that has happened or well happen is Gods wil.

perhaps you miss the point of sacrifices because you are forced by Christianity to read in christological significance? your right, God also demands repentance… if all you do is sacrifice and never repent, you wont be forgiven… you can also give charity, and offer incense for like blood, charity and incense make atonement for your soul.