Atrittion repentance unfair?

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You seem to have a lot of opinions and are becoming very defensive - and are saying things that are simply not reconcilable with Catholic Faith, and maybe even charity… Maybe you could try calming down and considering that you may be seeing things in a skewed way.
 
Look, it’s ironic, okay… I am coming here to CAF for a few minutes from writing a paper on this precise topic - based on Dupuis’ very interesting and complex book on the subject of grace and truth and revelation diffused through other religious traditions… we could have that discussion… but it seems you should take a deep breath. And I mean, for real, it is “out there” to say that “atheists can be saved.” Seems to conflict with Hebrews 11…
Maybe, but which one specifically?
For example, that there is no priesthood in Heaven… That’s wrong, brushing up against Trent and the relatively clear teaching of the ordinary Magisterium. That there are “no religion specifics” is, well, a bit of an odd phrase that sounds like you aren’t thinking too hard about the question but just want something that sounds nice. Precisely because we see God “face to face” the “specifics” are clarified for us, no? And those specifics are at least in part revealed through Christ, and His Church which is His Mystical Body…

Your implication that there is somehow no advantage offered by an explicit entry into the visible Church (the visible expression of the universal and invisible and ever-present covenant of faith) is HIGHLY problematic - as if the Great Commission were a “Great Suggestion” that wasn’t even that “great.” It is a HUGE advantage to have the Magisterium and Sacraments and governance of the Church… especially the Sacraments.

So let’s relax… and have a more peaceful discussion, eh?

-K
 
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Herself, thank you, and I’m sorry if you find my statements . And I am a Catholic in good standing and my statements are Catholic doctrine. . .don’t meet with your approval.

If—I say if—anyone gets to heaven, they will find they are Catholic.

And I specifically said that even baptized Catholics need to cooperate and that anyone non-Catholic may still be saved, so I fail to see your spleen.

Look, if you come to me with a deep blood infection in your foot, and I tell you that it’s gone so far that only an amputation and antibiotics will save you, are you going to complain that I’m not telling the truth, or that if I tried something else it would work just as well? When your doctor tells you that only one treatment will cure you, do you refuse? If your accountant tells you that only a certain combination of factors will keep you from bankruptcy, do you complain that you don’t want to do some of them? And then if you don’t comply with his advice, do you whine that your way should have had the same result as his?
 
My apologies if I insulted/misrespect anybody here. But I am sorry: to say that God plays dice with human salvation is to insult GOD, there are fanatics that would kill because of this, I would never ever do such thing, but you have to understand my angry/deception (which is not personal, because I dont know about you).

How would you feel if you enter in a catholic forum in which most people beleive that is good to kill non-belivers and that is what Church says? you would not kill anyone or hate because of that but decpetion/angry are logical feelings at least.
“atheists can be saved.” Seems to conflict with Hebrews 11
And doesn’t it conflict your CONSCIENCE? why believe LITERALLY a book instead of your conscience?
Using that rule why dont you cut off the limbs that make you sin?
For example, that there is no priesthood in Heaven…
And what about the rest¿? is that the only one? if you mean that the sacrament of order is forever then OK. But if you wanted me to believe that in heaven/paradise there are priests Confessing people, or applyng any sacrament… KO
as if the Great Commission were a “Great Suggestion”
Didn’t say that, but if you try to say that because you are baptized (a thing you do not even choose, most time), or because you use sacraments you think you have more opportunities or that you are God’s favorite… then please read Romans 2:11-13
So let’s relax… and have a more peaceful discussion, eh?
It is OK for me, but been in direct disagreement isn’t veligerant in my opinion
 
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If—I say if—anyone gets to heaven, they will find they are Catholic.
What is your definition of being catholic?

That is your trick, you use that word in a odd way to say
that you need to be Catholic in order to have more opportunities to be saved.

But if you dare to define what is to be Catholic, soon or later you will fall into specifics like sacraments, traditions that doesn’t make any sense in Heaven, albeit people are not CATHOLIC in Heaven.
What is the point of Confession in Heaven?
and that anyone non-Catholic may still be saved, so I fail to see your spleen.
My spleen is that you consider yourself God’s favourite because we are catholics, that you have more
opportunities than others to be saved because sacraments, what happens to those not lucky to be catholics? why do they have less opportunities to be saved? where is their guilt?
Look, if you come to me with a deep blood infection
That is a bad analogy. You can’t compare nature rules to GOD’s rules. What if a pregnant woman use drugs? the baby will die, is that fair? NO, it is a natural consequence but it is not FAIR.
 
I’ve read Romans 2… You are right - being a certain race and following a pedagogical law does not make you better than anyone else. But grace DOES - like the grace that comes through baptism.

I reiterate the need for you to chillllll.

-K
 
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Please try not to put words in my mouth which I never said.

Catholics have the fullness of faith. Does that mean because we do, we’ll all have a free ticket to heaven? No. And I said that already.

Let’s suppose that I’m Buddhist. I follow my Buddhist faith because I believe it’s true. I don’t hear of Jesus.

IF I have lived according to God’s way. . .if in pursuing truth I am also pursuing Jesus, who is Truth, even though I don’t know Him. . .then I MAY be saved just as much as if, as a Catholic, I live according to God’s way in seeking truth. I’ll probably have an easier time as a Catholic because I do have the fullness available, but if I ignore or don’t follow Catholic teaching, I probably will NOT be saved despite my ‘Catholicity’.

Do you think God is so ‘unfair’ that He doesn’t allow sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved, whether they know Christ or not?

What do you think happened to all the people who never knew Christ as they died prior to His life, Death, and Resurrection?
 
But grace DOES, - like the grace that comes through baptism.
Grace do not come only from sacraments as you surely know. But that is not my point, my point is that you think you have more Grace than others only because of sacraments.
I reiterate the need for you to chillllll.
I am just answering to what you say, I am not feeling offended by you, I am just exhaustive when it comes to answer a post. That is why I write an essay for every sentence. If you don’t want me to write that much, say so.
 
Why do you think so? I will state why I said that. First of all, yes it is difficult for them, and yes being Catholic with access to the sacraments is the royal road, filled with grace and meeting Christ in the flesh every Sunday. Who does not love to be united body and soul to the Lord? For this alone conversion efforts should be made as if it is a life and death issue (because it matters more than all things). BUT it is still possible for atheists to be saved, and not the least reason is that God can do what He wants, and desires the salvation of all, and does not give salvation based on foreseen merits, but only based on His grace and love for the elect (no action, even being Catholic and following the teachings in soul and body, is inherently meritorious of salvation without God first deciding to make it so based on His love for the person doing it, which is never based on anything they did or will do, only on Him.)

Refusal to believe or acknowledge God is an objective mortal sin, but if not done with full knowledge and deliberation it is not an actual mortal sin, therefore not violating the state of grace. Baptism is required for salvation, but there are three (water, blood, desire), an atheist may have an implicit desire for the third of the truly love their neighbors which is always ordered toward God (imago dei, 1 John 4:20-21), pope Pius XII: “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism.” If they commit an actual mortal sin they can return to the state of grace by the same kind of act of love, or sincere regret over their wrongdoings not out of attrition but because they know it was unjust, even if they do not recognize God as Justice itself (God is Mercy, Justice, Truth, Love, Beauty, anyone who seems these things with a whole heart and not selfishly seeks God, even if they do not know it is God they seek, see divine simplicity). Even if someone rejects the Church, and knows of it, they can be saved and joined to it, therefore “no salvation out side the church of Christ” is preserved, see St. JP2: The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her . It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. " therefore, atheists can be saved, and in my opinion, many a probably saved. We shall know when we see God.

God bless and may St. Joseph intercede for us, so we may all see God.
 
Please try not to put words in my mouth which I never said.
you need to be Catholic in order to have more opportunities to be saved
Maybe I did. Then answer to the question:

DO you need to be Catholic in order to have more opportunities to be saved?
Does that mean because we do, we’ll all have a free ticket to heaven?
Now it is you putting words on my mouth, I never said that, I said more opportunities no free ticket to heaven.
I’ll probably have an easier time as a Catholic because I do have the fullness available
What do you mean by “easier time”? will it be easier to you not to sin? Then you already answered my question, of course you believe you have more opportunities to go Heaven, why? you already said so: less sin, more probabilities to be saevd.
Do you think God is so ‘unfair’ that He doesn’t allow sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved, whether they know Christ or not?
I DO NOT believe it, but the point is not the SUFFICIENCY, the point is that you believe you have more GRACE than others because of sacraments which means more salvation opportunities.
What do you think happened to all the people who never knew Christ as they died prior to His life, Death, and Resurrection?
They will be judged by their conscience like all of us
 
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my point is that you think you have more Grace than others only because of sacraments.
Says who? You just made that up - and it is inflammatory, whether you realize it or not. How about asking questions instead of making accusations? I am not the only one who gets the vibe that you are being hostile… So, if you aren’t some troll, then you need to take a serious look at how you are responding to people. You are also clearly just a novice in the world of theology - you might do well to assume that a few people here might actually have something helpful for you in your walk with the Lord… We are not all beginners.
 
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I think Hebrews 11 stands in the way of your assessment. The only “exception” - and it is still a reach - would be one who is wrong about his own belief… Somehow he actually believes in God but without realizing it. I leave that open as a possibility, but it is not at all clear to me how such a thing would work, let alone redound to supernatural friendship with the Trinity. The simple point is, if you don’t believe in God, you can’t be friends with God. You can’t love what you don’t know. (See also Garrigou-Lagrange’s chart on the different “kinds” of the love of God - the most fundamental of which is present in a person simply in virtue of existing… and it builds from there through several stages to charity.)
 
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It is possible to be friends with God, even if one does not know Him, or know Him perfectly. Like Jesus told the Samaritan woman, they worship what they don’t know, we worship what we know. The Church believes that God is Triune, and yet also teaches that Muslims and Jews adore (worship) God. Even pagan philosophers who did not know God, by seeking the truth and goods like it, have been considered to have been friends with God and been Christians before Christians, St. Justin Martyr: We have been taught that Christ is the First-begotten of God, and have previously testified that he is the Reason of which every race of man partakes. Those who lived in accordance with Reason are Christians, even though they were called godless, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus and others like them… " what I am saying, is that essentially they are mistaken in their identification of all those things I mentioned, and don’t recognize that it is essentially God Himself. So yes they believe in God without realizing it, and if one is in the state of.grace, they have supernatural faith, even without realizing it. That is why I mentioned divine simplicity, if they love these things they implicit love God, and can be saved, even if they don’t explicitly acknowledge His existence as His triune self.
 
There are a number of assertions in there that are difficult if not impossible to defend or are seriously problematic, needing many distinctions (like the mess of a thread that was just had here on whether Muslims worship the same God as us). But I submit the theoretical possibility of a confused kind of “anonymous Christianity” as Rahner suggested… though I remain intensely skeptical about the possibility of anything but almost perfectly formed Trinitarian faith sufficing for faith en route to charity.
 
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Also, for reference, see St. Thomas here (Articles 5-8 especially): SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The act of faith (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 2)

In case you didn’t catch my edit… I think the bar is “high” for the virtue of faith. I clarified it… it was maybe saying the opposite of what I meant.

I tend to agree with Thomas here (as usual), but I wonder about the significance of Acts 19:2…
 
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I also generally agree with St. Thomas on some issues, although here, I just suppose the faith has developed in understanding.
 
Maybe… but I remain extremely skeptical.

-K
 
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