Attack on Church: Crusades, Holocost, Inquisition

[NolePaul2005]

How do I respond to this…

Attacker: “The Catholic Church should not ever be lecturing about good and evil. Does turning a blind eye to the holocaust make the church a good judge on evil and good? Oh yeah, another little thing called the Inquisition might help explain the moral authority of the Catholic Church. I’m not against the Catholic Church, they are the mother church. Everything came from the original church of Paul. But that does not absolve them of some horrible things that have been committed in the name of the church. Also, the church played kingmaker for many centuries. It is called a little thing like power. Power corrupts all men. And wasn’t a Pope responsible for the original crusade against the muslims. Did not a Pope offer eternal salvation to all who ventured on the crusade? Now if God told the Pope to send people to kill other people, then I really do not want a lot to do with that God. Jesus said to love your neighbor, the Pope said to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land. Gee, I wonder who I am going to follow on that one…”

 

[Thal59]

NolePaul2005:

How do I respond to this…

Attacker: “The Catholic Church should not ever be lecturing about good and evil. Does turning a blind eye to the holocaust make the church a good judge on evil and good? Oh yeah, another little thing called the Inquisition might help explain the moral authority of the Catholic Church. I’m not against the Catholic Church, they are the mother church. Everything came from the original church of Paul. But that does not absolve them of some horrible things that have been committed in the name of the church. Also, the church played kingmaker for many centuries. It is called a little thing like power. Power corrupts all men. And wasn’t a Pope responsible for the original crusade against the muslims. Did not a Pope offer eternal salvation to all who ventured on the crusade? Now if God told the Pope to send people to kill other people, then I really do not want a lot to do with that God. Jesus said to love your neighbor, the Pope said to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land. Gee, I wonder who I am going to follow on that one…”

By the time the church inaugarated the crusades, the Muslims had converted by “fire and sword” 2/3 of Christian territory. Tell the "attacker’ if it was not for the RCC, he would most likely be a Muslim, since no other kingdom or principality could ally the Christian kingdoms; only the popes. Please suggest he read about the subject before he attacks it.

Recent studies on the inquisition show that the inquisition was beneficial, and that it was the secular and Protestant courts that were bloodthirsty and injust. Please suggest he read about the subject before he attacks it.

The RCC was “neutral” during the war. Tell the man he is a fool to presuppose that the church could have somehow stopped Nazi Germany and the holocaust. There is many sources he can study on that will show how the church, while even fettered by neutrality, saved many lives. Please suggest he read about the subject before he attacks it.

Thal59

 

[Fuerza]

I can usually tolerate ignorance regarding the Crusades and the Inquisition, as these events do look pretty damning to the Church to those who don’t understand all the facts. A thorough explanation will usually at least somewhat calm down those who are willing to listen. However, I get extremely irritated with people who claim that the Church did nothing during the holocaust, and even that they aided the nazis in their genocide. Explain to these people that the Vatican does not have a military (it barely has 1,000 civilian citizens as it is)and certainly could not have ousted the nazis by force. You may also want to refer them to this article explaining some ways in which the Church aided the Jews during their persecution.

catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp

 

[Liberian]

NolePaul,

Your attacker is way off base. The Catholic Church during World War II sheltered tens of thousands of Jews–including many in Pope Pius’s private apartments and summer residence–and in fact saved about 750,000 Jewish lives, more than all the relief agencies put together. Ask your attacker how many more Jews he would have liked to have been killed so that the Church could satisfy his after-the-fact desire for some grandstanding.

• Liberian

 

[mom_07]

Let me get this straight. It was wrong of the Church to try rescue the Orthodox from he Muslims but it was the Church’s responsiblity to rescue Hitler’s victims from the Nazis? Seems to me like some people are never satisfied.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

mom 07:

Let me get this straight. It was wrong of the Church to try rescue the Orthodox from he Muslims but it was the Church’s responsiblity to rescue Hitler’s victims from the Nazis? Seems to me like some people are never satisfied.

Pax vobiscum!

I like the way you put that. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

You know, just yesterday in my history class on the Cold War we watched a video and then discussed it. It was on communism in Italy after WWII and I think the History Channel produced it. It talked about how the Church had led quite a large campaign against communism and several people that lived during that time in Italy were interviewed. The only one who knew what he was talking about was the Catholic priest. The others bashed the Church for “excommunicating” every communist “and friends of communists” (which I haven’t gotten a chance to look into yet, but I doubt there was a formal excommunication of all these people…Pius XII probably just declared it to them). And then, of course, the narrator said, “Pope Pius XII, who had supported the Facist movement throughout the war, was opposed to the communist movement.” I was livid, but didn’t get a chance to share with the class the truth. I didn’t want to just bring that up, so I was going to wait until someone mentioned that section of the video, but no one did. Hopefully on Tuesday we’ll continue discussing it and I can shed some truth on that terrible lie.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[mom_07]

Rand Al'Thor:

Pax vobiscum!

I like the way you put that. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

You know, just yesterday in my history class on the Cold War we watched a video and then discussed it. It was on communism in Italy after WWII and I think the History Channel produced it. It talked about how the Church had led quite a large campaign against communism and several people that lived during that time in Italy were interviewed. The only one who knew what he was talking about was the Catholic priest. The others bashed the Church for “excommunicating” every communist “and friends of communists” (which I haven’t gotten a chance to look into yet, but I doubt there was a formal excommunication of all these people…Pius XII probably just declared it to them). And then, of course, the narrator said, “Pope Pius XII, who had supported the Facist movement throughout the war, was opposed to the communist movement.” I was livid, but didn’t get a chance to share with the class the truth. I didn’t want to just bring that up, so I was going to wait until someone mentioned that section of the video, but no one did. Hopefully on Tuesday we’ll continue discussing it and I can shed some truth on that terrible lie.

In Christ,
Rand

It’s amazing just how much pop culture history is out there. I hope too that you get the chance to resond to fabrication. The Church’s resistance of facism and Mussulini is well established by historians. It is hard to believe that this polemic version of the past is still fed to students. Remember, you’re in this class for a reason. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Subrosa]

NolePaul2005:

How do I respond to this…

Attacker: “The Catholic Church should not ever be lecturing about good and evil. Does turning a blind eye to the holocaust make the church a good judge on evil and good? Oh yeah, another little thing called the Inquisition might help explain the moral authority of the Catholic Church. I’m not against the Catholic Church, they are the mother church. Everything came from the original church of Paul. But that does not absolve them of some horrible things that have been committed in the name of the church. Also, the church played kingmaker for many centuries. It is called a little thing like power. Power corrupts all men. And wasn’t a Pope responsible for the original crusade against the muslims. Did not a Pope offer eternal salvation to all who ventured on the crusade? Now if God told the Pope to send people to kill other people, then I really do not want a lot to do with that God. Jesus said to love your neighbor, the Pope said to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land. Gee, I wonder who I am going to follow on that one…”

I like to counter these arguments with the fact that Pope John Paul II apologized and took responsability for all the errors of the past.

During his address to the Jews during his pilgrimage to Jerusalem the Pope said, ‘‘As bishop of Rome and successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love, and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place.’’ He also met with Holocaust survivors, including several from Wadowice, his own home town in Poland and impressed Israelis with the warmth he showed toward them." II’s Pilgrimage to IsraelPope John Paul

He also apologized to the Orthodox Christians and Muslims for the sacking of Constantinople during the crusades. bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_religions.shtml
opednews.com/boyne_070304_pope.htm
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=28935

In commiting himself personally to the sins of the past, he indeed opened the doors to new relationships with these groups.
adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/4607_96.htm
Letters Between Pope and Moscow Patriarch
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=5330
rcab.org/EandI/catholic-orthodoxnews.html

I then tell the people making the argument that a basic concept in Christianity is FORGIVENESS. As Christians, we are called to forgive by Christ who tells us to pray the words, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive people who trespass against us.”

If the people who were actually offended by the Catholics of the past can find it in thier hearts to forgive todays Catholic church, why can’t they?

Blessings,
Subrosa

 

[SFH]

Subrosa:

I like to counter these arguments with the fact that Pope John Paul II apologized and took responsability for all the errors of the past.

During his address to the Jews during his pilgrimage to Jerusalem the Pope said, ‘‘As bishop of Rome and successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love, and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place.’’ He also met with Holocaust survivors, including several from Wadowice, his own home town in Poland and impressed Israelis with the warmth he showed toward them." Pope John Paul II’s Pilgrimage to Israel

He also apologized to the Orthodox Christians and Muslims for the sacking of Constantinople during the crusades. bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_religions.shtml
opednews.com/boyne_070304_pope.htm
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=28935

In commiting himself personally to the sins of the past, he indeed opened the doors to new relationships with these groups.
adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/4607_96.htm
Letters Between Pope and Moscow Patriarch
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=5330
rcab.org/EandI/catholic-orthodoxnews.html

I then tell the people making the argument that a basic concept in Christianity is FORGIVENESS. As Christians, we are called to forgive by Christ who tells us to pray the words, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive people who trespass against us.”

If the people who were actually offended by the Catholics of the past can find it in thier hearts to forgive todays Catholic church, why can’t they?

Blessings,
Subrosa

But Pope John Paul II never, and I repeat, NEVER, apologized for anything Pope Pius XII did, nor did he apologize for any of the popes who preached the Crusade. Nor did he have to. They did nothing wrong.

According to Pinchas E. Lapide, Israeli consul to Italy, Pope Pius XII was personally responsible for saving the lives of over 860,000 Jews during WWII. Can any other religion boast as much?

And the Crusades were the first attempt by the Catholics to liberate the Holy Lands from the enslavement of the Muslims–something that the Catholic Church was unable to do earlier because She was fighting for survival against the Muslim invasion of Europe.

Before anyone starts throwing stones at the Crusaders, I think they should take some time to read about Charles Martel and the Battle of Tours, the Reconquista in France and Spain, the Battle of Lepanto, and the Siege of Vienna.

Would God that the current Holy Father would preach another Crusade for the Christian world is again threatened by Islam!

 

[assassin99]

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the Catholic church HAS done bad things in its history? Lots of bad things happened in the name of Christ during the Crusades and the Inquisition, etc. Here in our modern and enlightened age, we see pervert priests going to jail for child rape. In years past - during much less enlightened times - equally evil and reprehensible men acting under Jesus’ name as priests and bishops and even popes committed vile acts that can’t be denied. Why did this happen? We have to assume it occurred because priests and bishops and popes are susceptible to sin just like everyone else. Anyone who thinks that the history of the Church is nothing but a story of love, peace, prayer, and humility is wrong.

 

[mom_07]

assassin99:

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the Catholic church HAS done bad things in its history? Lots of bad things happened in the name of Christ during the Crusades and the Inquisition, etc. Here in our modern and enlightened age, we see pervert priests going to jail for child rape. In years past - during much less enlightened times - equally evil and reprehensible men acting under Jesus’ name as priests and bishops and even popes committed vile acts that can’t be denied. Why did this happen? We have to assume it occurred because priests and bishops and popes are susceptible to sin just like everyone else. Anyone who thinks that the history of the Church is nothing but a story of love, peace, prayer, and humility is wrong.

The Church has never condoned evil. In fact, the Church defines what is evil and what evil is. However, everyone has the free will to either act or not act according to the moral law. With all her frailties the history of the Church is a love story told by God. And the world owes the Church a great debt for all she has accomplished throughout history in every conceivable area, such as: the arts, education, the university system, science, medical advances, morality in government, and the law, self-governing law, language, literacy, peace, civil rights, charity, human rights, architecture, health care and on and on.

Could Catholics be more humble? I know I could and I’m willing. How about you assassin99? Any humble resonses?

 

[Thal59]

assassin99:

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the Catholic church HAS done bad things in its history? Lots of bad things happened in the name of Christ during the Crusades and the Inquisition, etc. Here in our modern and enlightened age, we see pervert priests going to jail for child rape. In years past - during much less enlightened times - equally evil and reprehensible men acting under Jesus’ name as priests and bishops and even popes committed vile acts that can’t be denied. Why did this happen? We have to assume it occurred because priests and bishops and popes are susceptible to sin just like everyone else. Anyone who thinks that the history of the Church is nothing but a story of love, peace, prayer, and humility is wrong.

The problem isn’t acknowledging that bad things have happened, the problem is that the events have been so villified and exaggerated by the church’s enemies that one not only cannot be sure such things happened, but one cannot ever know the extent of the events in question.

Thal59

 

[kryogenix]

First of all, a lot of what people say against the Church is greatly exaggerated. Some try to portray the Crusades as if the Church decided to randomly slaughter Muslims because they weren’t Christian. In fact, the Crusades were launched becaues Muslims were making conquests in Christian lands. Calling the Crusades unjust would be like calling the Allied invasion at Normandy unjust.

Secondly, the arguement that one who has commited wrong cannot judge others for the same crime is a fallacy. I believe it is called 'argumentum tu quoque"- which means arguing “you too!”.
Would it be wrong for a long time smoker to say smoking is bad for your health? The person making a arguement has little bearing on the truth of the arguement.

 

[Subrosa]

SFH:

But Pope John Paul II never, and I repeat, NEVER, apologized for anything Pope Pius XII did, nor did he apologize for any of the popes who preached the Crusade. Nor did he have to. They did nothing wrong.

According to Pinchas E. Lapide, Israeli consul to Italy, Pope Pius XII was personally responsible for saving the lives of over 860,000 Jews during WWII. Can any other religion boast as much?

And the Crusades were the first attempt by the Catholics to liberate the Holy Lands from the enslavement of the Muslims–something that the Catholic Church was unable to do earlier because She was fighting for survival against the Muslim invasion of Europe.

Before anyone starts throwing stones at the Crusaders, I think they should take some time to read about Charles Martel and the Battle of Tours, the Reconquista in France and Spain, the Battle of Lepanto, and the Siege of Vienna.

Would God that the current Holy Father would preach another Crusade for the Christian world is again threatened by Islam!

I understand all that. But my counter-argument simply means that by acceping responsability, PJPII opened the doors to new relationships with the people who were offended.

We cannot be blamed for the sins of our forebarers. However, we can take action to heal the wounds and that is what JPII did when he said, ‘‘As bishop of Rome and successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love, and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place.’’

This argument usually leaves them with nothing else to say!

Blessings,
Subrosa