Attack on our doctrines

[Mikel12]

My friend sent me this stuff attacking our faith. Especially Purgatory

"Catholics are taught that “it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins”

2nd Maccabees7:43-46 Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel,"making a gathering…sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead,thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”

The Catholic Church used 2nd Maccabees for validation but they excluded 4th Esdras 7:105 “Speaking of death declares no one shall ever pray for another on that day.” they rejected this because it went against their own new doctrine"

Anyone more knowledgable about this subject who can help?

 

[Vincent]

Your friend’s citation of 2 (4) Esdras has nothing to do with Purgatory at all.

Here’s the context from verse 102-105:

I answered and said, “If I have found favor in thy sight, show further to me, thy servant, whether on the day of judgment the righteous will be able to intercede for the ungodly or to entreat the Most High for them, fathers for sons or sons for parents, brothers for brothers, relatives for their kinsmen, or friends for those who are most dear.”

He answered me and said, “Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisive and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be ill or sleep or eat or be healed in his stead, so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness and unrighteousness.”

The question is whether one can pray for (1) the ungodly (2) on the day of judgment.

First, Purgatory is not for the “ungodly” but for the “godly”. Purgatory describes the transition into the love of God that the godly experience if, at the point of death, they still suffer from the disordered attachments entailed by the sins they’ve committed.

Second, the ungodly on the day of judgment have definitively made their choice to refuse God’s gift of himself. It’s Hell for them, basically. No amount of intercession on their behalf can help them.

The rest of the context (106-115) makes this clear:

I answered and said, "How then do we find that first Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom, and Moses for our fathers who sinned in the desert, and Joshua after him for Israel in the days of Achan, and Samuel in the days of Saul, and David for the plague, and Solomon for those in the sanctuary, and Elijah for those who received the rain, and for the one who was dead, that he might live, and Hezekiah for the people in the days of Sennacherib, and many others prayed for many?

If therefore the righteous have prayed for the ungodly now, when corruption has increased and unrighteousness has multiplied, why will it not be so then as well?"

He answered me and said, "This present world is not the end; the full glory does not abide in it; therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak.

But the day of judgment will be the end of this age and the beginning of the immortal age to come, in which corruption has passed away, sinful indulgence has come to an end, unbelief has been cut off, and righteousness has increased and truth has appeared.Therefore no one will then be able to have mercy on him who has been condemned in the judgment, or to harm him who is victorious."

As the context shows, one can intercede for the ungodly while they still live on this earth, for they haven’t permanently fixed their will on themselves. They can still repent. But after death and on the day of judgment, the ungodly are Hell-bent on choosing themselves over the God who is Love.

This is totally different from those experiencing Purgatory.

 

[jburgherr]

Bishop Fultun Sheen, of the television show “Life Is Worth Living” fame did a show on Purgatory. I believe that this is one of the most eloquent explanations of what the Catholic Church’s belief of what Purgatory actually is. You can download the MP3 program free from:

americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

Right Click on the Purgatory (3rd column, close to the bottom) link, save to your desktop, and enjoy.

The question that your friends are asking are in error. If a person is in Purgatory, their Sins have already been forgiven through the grace of Jesus Christ. However their soul must be purified to enter into heaven and stand before the Glory of God.

 

[jburgherr]

sorry…a double post

 

[Mikel12]

Thanks for the responses so far, I can now go back and hammer him with the truth

 

[sires6]

Thanks for the responses so far, I can now go back and hammer him with the truth

2 things to remember: 1) Love, this person attacks what he does not know… educate in love. 2) there is NOTHING in the Bible that contradicts Catholic Faith and Doctrine. Nothing.

biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=4

Good luck sharing the true faith with your friend. I was converted by a man with great faith, great love and great patience, I would recommend the same to you.

By the way, why is he using Maccabees to refute Catholic Doctrine? If he uses maccabees, he has to agree that it is Catholic canon. I am curious.

 

[sires6]

Thanks for the responses so far, I can now go back and hammer him with the truth

2 things to remember: 1) Love, this person attacks what he does not know… educate in love. 2) there is NOTHING in the Bible that contradicts Catholic Faith and Doctrine. Nothing.

biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=4

Good luck sharing the true faith with your friend. I was converted by a man with great faith, great love and great patience, I would recommend the same to you.

By the way, why is he using Maccabees to refute Catholic Doctrine? If he uses maccabees, he has to agree that it is Catholic canon. I am curious.

 

[sires6]

Thanks for the responses so far, I can now go back and hammer him with the truth

2 things to remember: 1) Love, this person attacks what he does not know… educate in love. 2) there is NOTHING in the Bible that contradicts Catholic Faith and Doctrine. Nothing.

biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=4

Good luck sharing the true faith with your friend. I was converted by a man with great faith, great love and great patience, I would recommend the same to you.

By the way, why is he using Maccabees to refute Catholic Doctrine? If he uses maccabees, he has to agree that it is Catholic canon. I am curious.

 

[Todd_Easton]

In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul offers the following prayer for Onesiphorus, who seems to have died:
may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day

 

[Genesis315]

Yep, even the NAB footnotes, which usually seek to deny purgatory any chance they get, affirms it:

11 [16-18] The family of Onesiphorus because he . . . of my chains: Onesiphorus seems to have died before this letter was written. His family is mentioned twice (here and in 2 Tim 4:19), though it was Onesiphorus himself who was helpful to Paul in prison and rendered much service to the community of Ephesus. Because the apostle complains of abandonment by all in Asia during his second imprisonment and trial, the assistance of Onesiphorus seems to have been given to Paul during his first Roman imprisonment (A.D. 61-63).

 

[Genesis315]

Yep, even the NAB footnotes, which usually seek to deny purgatory any chance they get, affirms it:

11 [16-18] The family of Onesiphorus because he . . . of my chains: Onesiphorus seems to have died before this letter was written. His family is mentioned twice (here and in 2 Tim 4:19), though it was Onesiphorus himself who was helpful to Paul in prison and rendered much service to the community of Ephesus. Because the apostle complains of abandonment by all in Asia during his second imprisonment and trial, the assistance of Onesiphorus seems to have been given to Paul during his first Roman imprisonment (A.D. 61-63).

 

[puzzleannie]

honest disagreements are not attacks

 

[Genesis315]

honest disagreements are not attacks

Sure it is–it’s an offensive argument to undermine Catholic dogma–it’s polemics. Apologetics, on the otherhand, is a defensive argument to counter the offensive one.