Attacking and criticizing the pope -- how sinful is it?

[AndyF]

mlchance:

From the CCC:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of *detraction *who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them; - of *calumny *who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

2507 Respect for the reputation and honor of persons forbids all detraction and calumny in word or attitude.

– Mark L. Chance.

and your point is?

Andy

 

[AndyF]

michaelmac:

Hi all any Catholic can Attack and Criticize the Pope if the Pope is an heretic and those who have held the office of Pope for the last 200 years,have been the same

Submission to the total Authority of the Pope has Christ commanded sets the Catholic apart from other Christian religions. The Catholic in all humility knows his place, and would never be presumptious, and places his Faith in Christ in whom he feels at least is capable of monitoring and maintaining his own Church. He is confident in the knowledge the Church is self sustaining by the power of it’s founder alone.

1Peter 2,13"Because of the Lord, be obedient to every human institution,whether to the emporer as sovereign, or governors and commissioners…"

Are we to infer from Peter that we can shrug off the Authority of the highest Institution on earth, but bend to the others?"

If the world were suddenly devoid of humans, and there were only evil spirits in it, the Church would still be alive and healthy. It is only when our God, Christ, says it is over that it is. The Catholic is confident in the words of his Master, in that: Rv 20,4-Mat16,18 “the gates of hell will not prevail against it”.

Mat 28,18: “Full authority has been given to me both in heaven and on earth. go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations”

We can see from this implicit excert from Mathew that God establishes an Apostolic succession. The nations of today who are not disciples would not fair well if the succession stopped with the deaths of the Apostles. The effect is twofold. It also established a transferance of Authority, from the Father, to Christ, then to his apostolic successors.

The Reformation, by it’s intrinsic obstinance makes admission that the Church Christ founded is somewhat less than perfect, needing the reformation. It implies that Christ was in error and needed to be corrected. Therefore, these Christian sects, have been born on false ideals to start with. Bad enough, let alone spending an entire lifetime living up to it’s false ideals and errors.

if your a Christian you follow Gods laws not a churchs

…unless of course one day you were to discover a Church that God founded, then no one will have the option not to join it, as that would be the true Church. If one is a true Church, then the others cannot be. That Church would then be the manifestation of Christ on earth, one in the same.

Andy

 

[michaelmac]

Hi all , im not going to respect the Pope or Elders just because your suppossed to, they have to earn my respect ,Christians do not need to be part of the Catholic church to be Christians,i to can quote from the bible theres Matthew 18 ,and where are all the good Samaritans in the Catholic church ,yours michaelmac

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

DavidJoseph:

So often I hear Catholics openly and severely blaming the Holy Father (mainly John Paul II) for allegedly not doing anything to reign in heretics, dissenters, pedophiles, etc. That infuriates me, as while no pope is perfect, they all deserve respect. At any rate, is criticizing and attacking the pope a venial sin or mortal sin? Also, how would you respond to those who make such claims?

It can be a form of fraternal correction to rebuke the Pope.​

Those who think Popes are beyond criticism should read St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s De Consideratione.

Paul rebuked Peter don’t forget. Jesus called him “Satan”.

Instead of praising Popes, those who do so should pray for them, for no one is safe in this world from acting as they ought not - great and terrible falls are the more terrible, the greater the height one falls from. They need prayer, not admiration - still less flattery

These things “were written for our learning”, as much as any others. ##

 

[michaelmac]

Hi AndyF , if the leaders of the church do not act in a Christian manner how are you suppossed to respect them, take the american bishops they attacted south American countrys for human rights abuses 96 out of every 100 commited human rights abuses against children, in the U S A , The last Pope and this one have not shown a lot Christianity by there actions, in giving and allowing Cardinal Law to keep his new job ,and refusing to meet victims of abuse , a TRUE CHRISTIAN HELPS THOSE IN NEED NOT IGNORE THEM YOURS MICHAELMAC

 

[bear06]

DavidJoseph:

So often I hear Catholics openly and severely blaming the Holy Father (mainly John Paul II) for allegedly not doing anything to reign in heretics, dissenters, pedophiles, etc. That infuriates me, as while no pope is perfect, they all deserve respect. At any rate, is criticizing and attacking the pope a venial sin or mortal sin? Also, how would you respond to those who make such claims?

I’d tell them to read the Dogmatic Constitution, Pastor Aeternus. Here’s some highlights:
2

. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

1. Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the **supreme judge of the faithful ** [52], and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53]. The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54]. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.

Now, if I’m criticizing my husband’s judgment on something, I doubt he’s going to find me obedient and submissive. It doesn’t matter how much I profess my love for him, it still wouldn’t be obedient or submissive.

 

[wcknight]

Folks who attack or criticize the pope especially any of the Popes in the last 100 years should be flogged and horse whipped. I consider all of them to be saints and above reproach.

While no one even a pope is without sin (Only Jesus and Mary were without sin), we have been very fortunate to have had a succession of great and wonderful people as popes over the last century.

Cardinal Law made some whoppers of mistakes, and why the Pope(s) did not chastise him, is probably because Cardinal Law himself was not guilty of the crimes for which some of his priests were accused or convicted of. Incompetence is not a sin, even though many of us would like to make it a sin.

It may have been that the good cardinal was just doing what he thought was best for the Church (or it may have been the Church policy to deal with problem priests by trying to rehabilitate them or by shuffling them off to other parishes.)

Yes, it was a disasterous policy for the Church. and maybe the Cardinal should have been reprimanded but the Popes decided not to. I trust the decisions of these Popes far more than I do the judgement of the press or of their critics.

 

[michaelmac]

Hi wcknight, so you would have me horse whipped ,do you think this would make people like me any less critical of the Pope, as a survivor of sexual abuse ,who has had three siblings commit suicide because of there abuse , i will critizise any one who has part in the abuse of children yours michaelmac

 

[bear06]

michaelmac:

Hi wcknight, so you would have me horse whipped ,do you think this would make people like me any less critical of the Pope, as a survivor of sexual abuse ,who has had three siblings commit suicide because of there abuse , i will critizise any one who has part in the abuse of children yours michaelmac

Ours is not a spiteful Church. We do things as lovingly as we can and then we move on. Law will have to answer from a much higher authority. You must remember that the lovely pshychiatric world was the one who told people like Law that these pedophiles were cured. Obciously the Church has learned that there is pretty much no chance of that happening. The biggest mistake was relying on people like them for advice. Where is Law now. Hidden off in some “special” position somewhere.

 

[michaelmac]

Hi bear06 a Question every one gets the blame for things but the right people , You must remember that the lovely pshychiatric world was the one who told people like Law that these pedophiles were cured , you can only use this argument so many times, if people like Law had talk to the right people ,he would have known you cannot cure paedophiles ,and some people like Law ordained people who had abused children even before they became priests against the best advice , yours michaelmac

 

[bear06]

michaelmac:

Hi bear06 a Question every one gets the blame for things but the right people , You must remember that the lovely pshychiatric world was the one who told people like Law that these pedophiles were cured , you can only use this argument so many times, if people like Law had talk to the right people ,he would have known you cannot cure paedophiles ,and some people like Law ordained people who had abused children even before they became priests against the best advice , yours michaelmac

I agree that Law was gullible to believe it. Hopefully this will be a lesson to all that the psychiatric world doesn’t know what they are talking about in most cases. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not for child abuse. I’ve got almost 7 children myself and fought it tooth and nail in my diocese. The Church spoke decades ago about ordaining homosexual priests. Once again, the American Church does’t listen and what do we get? Scandal. In our diocese, the solution offered by the liberals was women priests, married priests and a discussion of human sexuality (gay priests). Abuse in our diocese would have been almost non-existent if they had listened. How exactly do you hold the Holy Father responsible?

 

[michaelmac]

Hi Bear06 if it was just the U S A ,that had a problem you could say people did not listen ,Canadas Government is paying 1 and half billion ,to victims of abuse ,Ireland is paying a billion to victims of abuse ,Brazil has just found they have 1700 abusing priests,the Vatican sent a group of people to inquiry into the abuse of women and children there, there are calls for an inquiry into abuse in childrens homes run by the Catholic church in Scotland , in the inquiry into abuse in Ireland the leader of the Christian Brother said sexual abuse of children was not a crime ,they Catholic church in Malta let a paedophile priest go to the U S A and told no one about him ,to the best of my knowledge hes still there , there is one thing most good Catholics dont know , the last Pope ,could have done a lot to sort out the problem facing the church today ,if he had listened to vicims in 1983 , yours michael ps all i have writen here can be proved from court case to other documents

 

[michaelmac]

Hi all the Christian Brother have been guilty of all types of child abuse including child slavery , a number of nuns orders round the world have also been guilty of abusing children and slavery ,these are documented facts yours michaelmac one question what would you call making a young woman look after her baby up to three years then then selling the baby to rich Americans ,

 

[wcknight]

The fact of the matter is that none of the Popes abused you or any other children, and I would dare say that every single Pope in the last century would have strongly condemn such abuses.

I am very sorry to hear that you and many other innocent kids were abused by some folks in the clergy. I don’t think anyone here supports child abuse in any form. We don’t know the details of these cases and it is not our responsibility to judge the actions of the hierachy.

We were not in the situations that Cardinal Law were, we did not get the advice that he had and we do not know any of the details of what he did or did not do. We only see that his actions were ineffective and may have aggrivated the problem. As the other poster said, Cardinal Law has his own deeds to answer for, and the Popes have their own as well.

If the Popes saw fit not to defrock or chastise Cardinal Law, I can only assume that they had good reason for not doing so. Given the character of these men in other matters, I can only assume that they made the best decisions that they saw fit.

There are literally thousands of priests and nuns, and condemning them all based on the actions of some is grossly unfair to the majority who are probably decent and innocent priests or nuns.

Even one bad priest or nun is a travesty, but I know there are many good priests and nuns, and they deserve far better treatment than to be lumped into the same basket of bad apples.

It really sounds like you have a huge axe to grind, and you may be entitled to that attitude from having been abused. However, until you can let go of all the hatred, you will never heal completely.

Saying that “ALL Christian brothers have been guilty…” is a far reaching statement and unless you can prove that EACH and EVERY Christian Brother is a bad egg, then that is a lie. Even if most are proven guilty, that would not prove your case.

We already know the pedophilia probem is an international scandal, and hopefully the Church is taking steps to try to solve it, in the interim we can only pray that victims like yourself can heal and help to heal the Church as well.

 

[michaelmac]

Hi wcknight the point im making is , people like Law if they dont listen and take in what being said ,they will go on moving priests around and more children will be hurt ,even with the best advice at the time saying this priest is fine then he goes on to abuse more children ,and you move him again wich has happened not just in Boston,your actions are saying children do not matter ,if it was not for people like me ,there would be no change , there might be good nuns and brothers ,when the head of the order is deaf to the plight of children not just in there own country some thing has to be said ,we are not talking about things here we are talking about destroying the lives of children, only God will know how many victims of abuse have killed them selves,because there pleass fell on deaf ears ,if you turn your back on the plight of children ,you are turning your back on Gods laws ,if the Pope gives a job to some who turned his back on chidren ,it sends a clear messege to survivors of abuse you do not matter yours michaelmac ps please dont mistake anger for hate

 

[wcknight]

I think the vast majority of folks now know that moving pedophile priests was and is a bad policy. It is a lesson taught the hard way. Cardinal Law was removed from his position in Boston. as far as I know he was not personally guilty of these offenses but he made the grossly incompetent decision not to deal with the problem properly.

No one here discounts the impact that these crimes had on the children and their futures. Many here are parents as well, including myself. I think everyone here believes we should do everything we possibly can to protect our children. I believe a lot has been done in that regard, maybe not as fast or as much as we would ideally want, but the problem is being dealt with.

In our archdiocese, everyone who has anything to do with kids, has to have a background check made. It may not be 100% effective, but there are steps being made to better protect our kids. I would think and hope that problem priests and clergy are being dealt with in a more effective manner now than before.

How the Church deals with Cardinal Law is up to the Pope. I don’t know how culpable he was/is. IF he was criminally negligent, then he should be handled by the justice system. We would like to see a zero tolerance policy become the official Church policy, but that is not our call. The Church is NOT a democracy, and it is not our call. We can petition for more stringent policies, but it really is the decisions of the Church hierachy.

The tone of your posts exhibits a bit more than anger. You centainly have a right to be angry, but making broad sweeping generalities oversteps those bounds. IF the head of these orders are overlooking these abuses then they and the abusers are the ones who are responsible. Don’t condemn a whole order if there are some bad apples and the administration is not listening.

By all means do whatever needs to be done to bring these problems to light. BUT let’s not say “ALL Christian Brothers are guilty…” unless you know for a fact that this is true. By exaggerating or overstating the problem, it ruins your credibility, and makes yours position less effective not more. PLUS it is grossly unfair to those clergymen who are completely innocent.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

There have been so many good points made on this thread, I wanted to offer a way to view legitimate feedback – both positive and negative – to the Church.

The Church needs criticism. Whether the criticism is constructive is almost as much a function of the hearer as the bearer.

For a long time people seemed to think that I was anti-Church, disrespected the pope, etc. when I was just trying to point out the truth and ask legitimate questions, no just about the pope but in Church operations in general. My way of asking them apparently sounded aggressive or cold, I suppose, and what I called questions others called “attacks.”

Then a friend on this forum showed me a link to a document that speaks of the “prophetic ministry” within the Church. It is a vital function whereby the “groans” of the Church and her people are expressed by those who are able to “hear” them and give them a voice.

The basic idea is that we all know the Church has things wrong with it. Prophetic ministry calls people who are both honest and sensitive to those groans (described in the paper linked below) and who love the Church.

Here is an excerpt. For the whole article, click on: "See, I am Doing Something New: Prophetic Ministry for a Church in Transition:"

Bishop Richard Sklba has just given us a masterful description of the prophetic vocation as it is found in the Scriptures. I would summarize his insights with the following description: The prophet is both a keen observer of the signs of the time and is acutely attuned with the heart of God. Out of these deep sensitivities the prophet speaks truth . . truth that is often uncomfortable and unwelcome yet always essential and life-giving. My task is to ponder the significance of this insight for us as priests here and now. Our question is: What does it mean to exercise a prophetic vocation in the Church in a time of transition? What I offer is simply one perspective, one attempt at prophetic listening to the voice of the presbyterate; and one effort at articulating what the Spirit might be saying to and among us today.

The prophet’s role:

Walter Brueggemann argues; is to propose alternative visions and possibilities than those that are officially endorsed. He states that the biblical prophets have a twofold task: first, in light of God’s word, to express the people’s deepest hopes and lead them to embrace God’s promise of new life. Isaiah’s words have haunted my prayer for the past year; and now echo within me as a summary of this dual vocation: “See; I am doing something NEW.” Thus I believe that the prophetic vocation is first, to help the faith community to embrace a loss it does not want to admit, and then to proclaim to the people a hope that they cannot dare to image.

Part One: “I have heard the groans of my people.” (Exodus 3:7):

The prophetic vocation begins with listening to the community’s groans and giving them voice. A “groan” is different from a mere complaint or gripe. By definition, a groan is inarticulate. It is a cry of deep distress or pain that does not always reveal its source or cause. The prophetic consciousness is peculiarly sensitive to “groans”,” the inarticulate cries of a people’s distress, because such groans are the initial and indisputable signs which announce: “all is not well!! Something is terribly wrong! This is not how God wants things to be!”

Alan

 

[michaelmac]

Hi wckinght in my post i should have put one of these after, Hi all,i did not say all Christian brothers are abusers ,a lot of people thinks the church is helping all victims, only i wish this was true ,lots of victims are getting no help , its not just the church who are turning there backs on these people but governments like the Irish one has excluded them from any redress ,even when a priest has said he abused 15 youg boys ,nobody from the diocese wants to help,any way they cannot help all 15 because one killed himself ,there are many women abused by nuns who are not getting any help from the Catholic church ,what about the youg girls who had to give up there babys , those babys now adults cannot find out who there parents are because the Catholic church got the government to seal the adoption records,the Catholic church in Scotland does not want an inquiry into abuse in childrens homes there ,do you know what its like to wake up every morning and be reminded of your abuse ,yours michaelmac