Attaining Peace in Turmoil..........de Caussade

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

quote: BarbaraTherese

That is* very* funny!

A friend once said to me - when we were in school -
“You seem to think that you will find one book that
will explain all…and it’s usually the one you’re currently
reading…”

I’ve never forgotten her insight. :yup:

reen

Howdy Reen…at the risk of hijacking this thread into an admiration thread…Reen I am sure, positive, that The Holy Spirit guides you and that you are a joy to Him!:yup:

But then the subject of this Thread is Peace in Turmoil…and nothing can so provide the soil for peace as mutual encouragement and in all circumstances. “Every day keep encouraging one another” (Divine Office)…just added that Reen to 'indicate '… … that we are still within the confines of the subject of this thread.

Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: de Chaussade

Let us accept all from the hand of our good Father and He will keep us in peace in the midst of the greatest disasters of this world, which pass away like shadows.

Now, I’ve got a* major* problem with the last part of this sentiment.

quote: de Chaussade

…which pass away like shadows.

What does “abandoment to divine providence” mean,
in terms of sudden widow-hood, for instance?
And how “pass away like shadows?” in the midst
of numbing grief? in the face of one of the most
profound losses one can sustain, in a lifetime?

“…pass away like shadows…” seems a bit too spiritually blithe,
to this observer.

Makes me want to say:
“Let’s take a reality-break, shall we, Pere de Chassaude?”

best,

reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

quote: de Chaussade

Now, I’ve got a* major* problem with the last part of this sentiment.
quote: de Chaussade

What does “abandoment to divine providence” mean,
in terms of sudden widow-hood, for instance?
And how “pass away like shadows?” in the midst
of numbing grief? in the face of one of the most
profound losses one can sustain, in a lifetime?
“…pass away like shadows…” seems a bit too spiritually blithe,
to this observer.
Makes me want to say:
“Let’s take a reality-break, shall we, Pere de Chassaude?”
best,
reen12

Yes…I know what you mean Reen. I did mention this on another site and that I did think de Caussade was somewhat remiss (listen to me! ) in not broaching the subject…but then he would have been quite visionary in his own times if he did perhaps.

There is not only sudden widowhood or death of a loved one, but the major disasters in this world which cause dreadful suffering and to the innocent. Spirituality should not rob us of our humanity, rather enrich it. It would be most inhuman to experience no grief at the death of loved ones, or major disasters and many other problems in our world…but one can experience I think real grief and great concern and empathy for others indeed in a certain Peace. The knowledge that God has permitted to happen something that lays absolutely beyond our knowing as to the why of it…this Peace does not ask that we accept such matters without real compassion and concern and actively so if it is possible, in fact the Peace of The Lord will indeed facilitate that we feel that compassion and concern to the depths of our humanity.

Jesus wept over a city…his city: Jerusalem and also the symbolic city of the kingdom of God. He wept over the death of his good pal, Lazurus. Jesus was not indeed an unfeeling person…and plenty of instances in The Gospel where his feelings are on show - right out in the open - no bushel of disguise!..and Jesus remains the greatest mystic and saint who ever lived in His Humanity. We can certainly do no better than Scripture and taking our cues from Jesus, The Lord.

I think de Caussade did write in the 17th or 18th century if memory serves…at any rate his writings are regarded as classical spiritual. In those days our humanity was seen as something to be more or less despised and put aside. In de Caussade’s day the world and our humanity were seen as against the totally spiritual person - to grow spiritually a person was expected to move beyond them. New insight and theology and in closer accord with Scripture now sees our humanity and indeed the world as something to be treasured and valued and not at all cast out of our ‘spirituality’ rather at the very foundation of it. We are expected and as spiritual beings to invest in our humanity and the world. This does not negate de Caussade in that he is correct about establishing the soul in the Peace of The Lord even in misfortune. This is not very often there for the asking…immediate…rather a journey of many stops and starts perhaps, of two steps back three forward, four back etc. type of motion. We need to be gentle with ourselves and this will transfer into gentleness with others as I read things. If I am harsh and hard with myself, chances are this will transfer onto others and by me.

This, I dont think, negates the spiritual classics, rather gives deeper insight than perhaps the author even realized. It does ask that the reader insights that the classical works were of course reflective of the milieu of the writer.

The Peace of The Lord leads to calm and abandonment of undue anxiety…in this type of emotional soil, we can act in the interests of others (and ourselves) without agitation, compulsion and undue anxiety about ourself or others. For the Peace of The Lord insights that He is in charge of His World and His Own…though most mysterious perhaps to us and not reflecting how we would perhaps run things!!!

Again, this Peace takes us to the core of our humanity and does not at all negate it creating harsh and unfeeling creatures without concern and empathy to others…quite to the contrary.

My take Reen on matters…but do pick it apart and maybe together and with anyone else who would like to give (name removed by moderator)ut, we can arrive at something closer to the truth of matters.

Regards Reen…and thank you indeed for the insight, it is something that does need addressing about de Caussade’s writings for one only I think. As usual, you go to the heart of matters with a rare abandon Reen!!!

 

[reen12]

quote: BarbaraTherese

New insight and theology and in closer accord with Scripture now sees our humanity and indeed the world as something to be treasured and valued…

Yes, I think you’re right, on this.

It is also more redolent of Judaic spirituality, if I understand
same correctly.

quote: BarbaraTherese

The Peace of The Lord leads to calm and abandonment of undue anxiety…in this type of emotional soil, we can act in the interests of others (and ourselves) without agitation, compulsion and undue anxiety about ourself or others

.

Yes, a lack of “undue anxiety” is what’s to be achieved, with God’s grace, I think.
Though I think agitation is almost invariably present, during the initial period of loss.

[And, too, there’s something to be said for what earlier
spiritual writers termed “resignation” to God’s will.]

quote: BarbaraTherese

The knowledge that God has permitted to happen something that lays absolutely beyond our knowing as to the why of it…this Peace does not ask that we accept such matters without real compassion and concern and actively so if it is possible, in fact the Peace of The Lord will indeed facilitate that we feel that compassion and concern to the depths of our humanity.

The funny thing is, the “clues” - in terms of how we are
to negotiate great loss - are found in the Scriptures.
The Psalms are a sure guide, I think, as are…as you say…
the human experience of Jesus, recorded in the gospels.

Best,

reen

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Reen…

Yes, I think you’re right, on this.

It is also more redolent of Judaic spirituality, if I understand
same correctly.

Hi there Reen…it does not surprise me at all that new insights may reveal a close reflection of Jadaic spirituality. Jesus was Jewish and hence our roots are in Judaic spirituality. That our newer insights reveal these close connections is a ‘smoothness’ introduced…a ‘making sense’ …not a jarring birth of a completely disconnected Christian spirituality. Hence I rejoice, and truly wish that I knew more of Judaic spirituality…all I do know is only what I can glean from Scripture - but no mistake in that tho a limited understanding methinks.
We actually I dont think accomplish anything at all that is good not of ourselves…all comes from God’s Grace. Gpd often stuns me with His Humility and how silently and behind the scenes He Chooses to Work - hence no demand for any glory at all…which nevertheless entirely belongs to Him and Him only.

.

Yes, a lack of “undue anxiety” is what’s to be achieved, with God’s grace, I think.
Though I think agitation is almost invariably present, during the initial period of loss.

Yes, I agree with you Reen. I was watching last night a very old movie with Dirk Bogarde and John Mills “The Singer not The Song” it was quite a deep I thought comment and on religion and spirituality. The initial quandry of the priest is fully human and it is only with a passage of time that he comes to a decision. This is the way of being human…unless God performs a miracle which is when He Chooses to act outside the very rules that He has inbuilt into His Creation. It is entirely human to be absolutely devastated in the face of some terrible loss…and only over a passage of time that one comes to terms with it. To me, there is nothing of imperfection as far as humanly speaking goes in this…rather the order that God has established and thus good. It is just the way humanity is constructed and according to our ideas of perfection…presents an imperfection in us in that only a passage of time normally brings about acceptance, resignation and The Peace of The Lord. I think that this is due to Original Sin…but this is inbuilt into our nature too. Original Sin and the consequences.

The funny thing is, the “clues” - in terms of how we are

to negotiate great loss - are found in the Scriptures.
The Psalms are a sure guide, I think, as are…as you say…
the human experience of Jesus, recorded in the gospels.

Again I agree with you…and to read and ponder the Psalms can only be done over a passage of time…a mini journey within the overall journey. Journey to me is a beautiful and apt description…for it implies that we travel from point A to point B. And we need to have the interior liberty to allow ourselves to actually journey without thrusting on ourselves (and perhaps reflective of 15th. century spirituality) a burden of guilt because we need indeed to actually journey. Rare is it the person I tend to think that has the gift of an immediate Grace cancelling out the journey.

Send regards to you Reen - Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: BarbaraTherese

We actually I dont think accomplish anything at all that is good not of ourselves…all comes from God’s Grace. Gpd often stuns me with His Humility and how silently and behind the scenes He Chooses to Work - hence no demand for any glory at all…which nevertheless entirely belongs to Him and Him only.

• hence no demand for any glory at all…which nevertheless entirely belongs to Him and Him only.

Isn’t* that* the truth.

I have fought a [losing] battle, not to heartily congradulate
myself, when I have somehow! managed to “do good”…
in the sense of a lot of “self back-patting”…trying not to
“see” or acknowledge that it was God’s gift of strength,
patience and courage that made that “good” even remotely possible.

“Not to us, Lord, not to us, but to You, be the glory.” [Psalms?]

May I take exception to the following?

quote: BarbaraTherese

It is just the way humanity is constructed and according to our ideas of perfection…presents an imperfection in us in that only a passage of time normally brings about acceptance, resignation and The Peace of The Lord. I think that this is due to Original Sin…but this is inbuilt into our nature too.

And I’ll tell you why:

Christ wept, over Jerusalem, over the death of Lazarus.
Yet He was free from Original Sin.
He prayed, in the Garden: Father, if it be possible,
remove this cup, from Me…
And on the cross:
My, God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?..

Full acceptance of our humanity, I think, means that we
will, with little doubt, experience devastation…[often, over
a considerable period of time] at at great loss…not due to O.S.,
but *because *of our cherished humanity…i.e. cherished, by God, Himself.

I suppose the point could be made that Christ* immediatley*
resigned Himself to His Father’s will, and yet…

[What do you think of my “take” on OS *not being involved,
in terms of the period of time - that needs pass - before
we can say: Not my will, but Yours, be done?]
That, perhaps, this acceptance of loss is of even greater
value, to the Father, because of what it takes, on our part,
to accept such loss? [our cherished humanity?]
“Not my will, but Yours, be done.”]

I’d would appreciate your thought on same.

---

As far as Judaic spirituality is concerned, at least part
of same can be intuited from Hasidic stories:

chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=6588

If you ever have time, Barb, please consider taking a look
at some of these. [Many are so beautiful.]

Best,

reen

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

quote: BarbaraTherese
Isn’t* that* the truth.

I have fought a [losing] battle, not to heartily congradulate
myself, when I have somehow! managed to “do good”…
in the sense of a lot of “self back-patting”…trying not to
“see” or acknowledge that it was God’s gift of strength,
patience and courage that made that “good” even remotely possible.
“Not to us, Lord, not to us, but to You, be the glory.” [Psalms?]

May I take exception to the following?

Edited for Space…please see Reen’s Original Post
As far as Judaic spirituality is concerned, at least part
of same can be intuited from Hasidic stories:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=6588

If you ever have time, Barb, please consider taking a look
at some of these. [Many are so beautiful.]

Best,

reen

Quoting Reen…

Christ wept, over Jerusalem, over the death of Lazarus.

Yet He was free from Original Sin.
He prayed, in the Garden: Father, if it be possible,
remove this cup, from Me…
And on the cross:
My, God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?..

Quoting BarbaraTherese…

It is just the way humanity is constructed and according to our ideas of perfection…presents an imperfection in us in that only a passage of time normally brings about acceptance, resignation and The Peace of The Lord. I think that this is due to Original Sin…but this is inbuilt into our nature too.

Hi Reen…I stand corrected and thank you. Jesus was not affected by Original Sin…hence my concept above that our ‘imperfections due to human nature’ are due to Original Sin is illogical and therefore theologically unsound. It is simply human nature (and nothing to do with Original Sin) that terrible loss or human tragedy should affect us to the core of our being.
In fact in weeping over Jerusalem and Lazurus etc. as you mentioned above, Jesus indicates to us that deep loss will affect us deeply and no imperfection to feel it to the core of our being. Hence there should be no guilt when it does!
Good point Reen…this is what I mean about hashing out matters in threads in a spirit of searching for the truth of matters.

Hope that makes sense, Reen.

I frequently find myself in the face of some good that may have occurred of congratulating myself, feeling good and patting my back…and then at some point wake up how very wrong I am and that the full and absolute credit is not mine at all. Journey.

I have bookmarked the website re Hasidic stories/Judaic spirituality…thank you for the reference.

Peace Reen and you and yours are on my mind prayerfully until after Friday and the results…

Regards Reen…Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: BarbaraTherese

Peace Reen and you and yours are on my mind prayerfully until after Friday and the results…

Thank you, Barb, I am grateful.

reen