Attempt At A Mutually Respectful Abortion Discussion

[EmmaSowl]

In another thread, Abrosz and I agreed to a mutually respectful discussion on abortion and he graciously suggested I start.

I guess the best way is to first post my reply to his reply to someone else (hope that’s not confusing) which started this attempt. Then I will begin.

The post:

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As soon as you realize that human DNA, cell, tissue, organ and organism (zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus) are fundamentally different from “children”, I will be happy to have a mutually respectful discussion.

I’m not Ridgerunner, but I would be happy to abide by your rules, as long as we each are willing to define our terms for clarity when asked. No good talking at cross purposes.

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I begin:

How do you define “fundamentally different”?

 

[EmmaSowl]

@camoderator - can you move this to Philosophy? I should’ve put it there. Thanks!

 

[Abrosz]

How do you define “fundamentally different”?

I think, just like you. Just like a medical student is fundamentally different from a brain surgeon. The difference is based upon what they can and supposed to be able to do. Just like a toddler is fundamentally different from an adult.

They belong to the same species, but that is all. The quantitative and qualitative differences are simply too big.

I would like to tell you about my view. I am both pro-choice and pro-life. These are not mutually exclusive. I support the women’s right to have dominion over her body. And I hope that abortion will be as rare as possible. But definitely legal. I wish that every pregnancy would be joyful occurrence, with eager expectation for the result.

But I am aware that this is a pipe-dream. But still worthy to work toward it.

The first step would be to separate the procreative function from pleasure seeking function. They do not need to be combined, even though it is very desirable to have them together. But let’s not forget that the female orgasm is not a logical pre-requisite for conception. It is impractical to demand that “if you do not wish to procreate, stay celibate”. Biology simply does not work like it.

Also let’s remember that the sexual act is much more varied and more involved than the “bam bam thank you ma’am”

I will finish here. Will wait for you reply. Also, we do not have to agree, but a respectful disagreement is still a worthy goal.

Best wishes.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I support the women’s right to have dominion over her body. And I hope that abortion will be as rare as possible.

I think that in this world, that is about as good as it’s ever going to get. Nevertheless, the struggle and the debate for all sides of the issue will carry on, as it must.

 

[EmmaSowl]

I think, just like you. Just like a medical student is fundamentally different from a brain surgeon. The difference is based upon what they can and supposed to be able to do. Just like a toddler is fundamentally different from an adult.

They belong to the same species, but that is all.

I can agree to this.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will ponder it and reply tomorrow. In fact, depending on how in depth we go, I may only make a post or two a day. It’s a serious subject which deserves serious thought.

I will finish here. Will wait for you reply. Also, we do not have to agree, but a respectful disagreement is still a worthy goal.

Agreed!

 

[christismylord]

Are we looking at this from a biblical or hypothetical perspective?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Are we looking at this from a biblical or hypothetical perspective?

A hypothetical perspective.

 

[Pattylt]

Would the two of you prefer to have your discussion before everyone else jumps in or are you ok with others commenting? There are pros and cons to each method and I’d hope we would respect your wishes! Just let us know!

 

[christismylord]

Ok here’s my take; tell me if you disagree! Hypothetically, this fetus could develop into a young child, make friends, enjoy life and grow up, be a spouse to another, have children of their own, change others lives, be a role model to younger people, and serve others with their talents and gifts. Even if you take away the concept of “murder” would it not still be considered robbery? In essence, (usually of course, but there are exceptions in which it is dangerous for mother or child) for ones own sake, they chose to rob another of possible experiences and the fullest possibility of life. Regardless of how the fetus feels about the matter at the time, because it would not have a developed brain, one who chooses abortion takes away a possibility of experiences from a being with no power of its own. Therefore, I’d conclude that abortion should be avoided when at all possible.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Okay, abortion is murder, I would have no problem with women being fined for having abortions, I’m well aware that this is an unpopular opinion. Oh well. I’m sick of holding back on my views on stuff like this, because people pretend to be smarter than me. This is why I don’t have a Twitter, it’s why I don’t have a Facebook, and that’s why I like to go months at a time without coming here. I was against abortion and contraceptives long before I was Catholic. I don’t think you can have a respectful Dialogue on abortion, because of abortion always involved disrespecting The Unborn.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

As soon as you realize that human DNA, cell, tissue, organ and organism (zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus) are fundamentally different from “children”, I will be happy to have a mutually respectful discussion.

I honestly don’t think this is a fair or reasonable criteria. There’s no difference at all other than an arbitrary one, defined by others to be allowed to kill those they don’t like.

“As soon as you accept I’m right, we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, I don’t wanna talk” is . . . not a productive . . . way of speaking.

 

[FiveLinden]

Hypothetically, this fetus could develop into a young child, make friends, enjoy life and grow up, be a spouse to another, have children of their own, change others lives, be a role model to younger people, and serve others with their talents and gifts.

You can’t argue a principle 'the end does not justify the means, (abortion) by pointing to consequences. Otherwise we might as well argue abortion would have been good in the case of Hitler, or that my sleeping with my neighbour while cheating on my wife is good because a child who might have a wonderful life could be born, or that rape in warfare is good for the same reason. The Catholic view is that you can’t ever to a bad thing to achieve a good thing. So in my view Catholics cannot argue consequences. Point to them - yes. Argue them as justification for opposing abortion - no.

 

[Abrosz]

I think that in this world, that is about as good as it’s ever going to get. Nevertheless, the struggle and the debate for all sides of the issue will carry on, as it must.

Agreed.

I can agree to this.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will ponder it and reply tomorrow. In fact, depending on how in depth we go, I may only make a post or two a day. It’s a serious subject which deserves serious thought.

Thank you, I am patient… in every sense of the word… having had a triple bypass surgery not too long ago.

Are we looking at this from a biblical or hypothetical perspective?

From a secular, rational perspective.

Would the two of you prefer to have your discussion before everyone else jumps in or are you ok with others commenting? There are pros and cons to each method and I’d hope we would respect your wishes! Just let us know!

Well, there are some boards, where you can have a one-on-one discussion, and a “balcony” where comments can be made. To my best knowledge this software does not have that capability, so all I can ask for is to be civil and stick to the topic. Thanks in advance.

Therefore, I’d conclude that abortion should be avoided when at all possible.

This I can agree with. But don’t forget that the newborn CAN also develop into a mass-murderer. What “could happen” is not pertinent, because almost everything COULD happen.

I don’t think you can have a respectful Dialogue on abortion, because of abortion always involved disrespecting The Unborn.

That remains to be seen.

I honestly don’t think this is a fair or reasonable criteria.

Then you are welcome to stay away. I present the argument based upon Biology 101. Science is not interested in “respect”.

 

[Abrosz]

A quick addition. When you speak about abortion, how do you define it? Does it include the morning-after pills, too? What about the abortifacient medications, which work only for a few days after conception?

Just a little clarification.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Obviously you are entitled to your views. However, if you think abortion is murder (in a legal sense), why only a fine? Murder would require a term of imprisonment or even the death penalty. Are you willing to go that far?

 

[EmmaSowl]

And I hope that abortion will be as rare as possible.

Why do you hope it will be rare?

The first step would be to separate the procreative function from pleasure seeking function.

Am I correct in concluding you are not Catholic?

I guess those are my only two questions for now.

Lol, I’m still deciding about reading other posts. I’m sure they’re interesting and informative, but this is a big topic and I don’t want to get lost in multiple aspects of it all at once - especially when I’m trying to be moderate (not obsessive) with my social media time!

Fyi, I was brought up atheist, Democrat, and pro-abortion. Talked two teen-aged girlfriends into abortions (drove one to the place). Over the decades, I converted in all three areas. Becoming Catholic was my most painful, but hands-down quickest, conversion. It was also the easiest one to go public with.

Looking forward to your answers!

 

[Stephen_says]

@Abrosz

As soon as you realize that human DNA, cell, tissue, organ and organism (zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus) are fundamentally different from “children”, I will be happy to have a mutually respectful discussion.

I realize that this quote was taken from a different thread, but must one really submit to the idea that zygotes, blastocyst, embryo, fetus are “fundamentally” different from children for a respectful discussion to occur? It can be argued that they are not fundamentally different at all, only what Aquinas would call accidentally different while they are essentially the same, a human being.

Is it possible to have a mutually respectful discussion while having such vastly different views on the nature of human development?

 

[Aquinas11]

I think, just like you. Just like a medical student is fundamentally different from a brain surgeon. The difference is based upon what they can and supposed to be able to do. Just like a toddler is fundamentally different from an adult.

The medical student and brain surgeon are more similar (both human, both adults, both with science background, both etc etc) than they are different (one can practice medicine, other can’t).

In which case the above definition “fundamentally different” just means “some difference”

Which is a ubiquitous standard, since everything has some difference with everything else.

In fact, per your definition, the baby is “fundamentally different” from the mother during pregnancy, thus baby is not “her body”. Despite their similarity (both human, both in various stages of human cycle, etc) they have some difference (baby can do things mother can’t and vice versa).

I support the women’s right to have dominion over her body.

 

[Aquinas11]

Obviously you are entitled to your views. However, if you think abortion is murder (in a legal sense), why only a fine? Murder would require a term of imprisonment or even the death penalty. Are you willing to go that far?

When you say “far”, can you give us a reference frame? For example, would “far” in above post be less than or more than killing a baby?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Not sure I understand your question. I’m referring to going “that far” regarding the punishment for the murder of a baby. Murder, according to its legal definition, generally requires a more severe punishment than a fine.