Attend protestant baptism

[andersonbd1]

my sister-in-law (catholic) and brother (protestant) are the godmother and christian witness of one of our children. They were married in a Catholic church. Now they are requesting our presence at the baptism of their first child in a protestant church (I did verify it would be a valid baptism).

1. what would be the status of my sister-in-law if she baptizes her child in a protestant church and not a catholic one?
2. should we attend?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Monica4316]

I’m not sure, but I know that when a couple marries in a Catholic church, they promise to raise the kids Catholic… and it’s assumed that the kids would be baptized in the Church.

 

[1ke]

1. what would be the status of my sister-in-law if she baptizes her child in a protestant church and not a catholic one?

She is under a grave obligation to baptize and raise her children in the Catholic Church, as both she and her husband were instructed in order for permission for a mixed marriage to be granted.

She would be committing a grave sin, and moreover, would have lied in order to receive permission to marry a non-Catholic if she did not intend to raise the children Catholic.

1. should we attend?

I would first talk to her about her grave obligation to baptize her children in the Catholic Church. If she persists in this grave act, I would not participate in it.

 

[choy]

also, what is your sister’s standing with the Church now? has she been lured out? if not, why the preference of a Protestant baptism over a Catholic one?

 

[Crash001]

You’re sister-in-law doesn’t sound catholic anymore. If she is in full communion with the teachings of the Church and attends mass, you should probably call or have lunch with her and discuss your concerns. If she needs additional (name removed by moderator)ut, talking with a local priest is probably in order. I would have a very hard time attending if someone says that they are Catholic, but acts in this way. Good luck. My two cents…

 

[Phemie]

This is what the DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM has to say

1. In carrying out this duty of transmitting the Catholic faith to the children, the Catholic parent will do so with respect for the religious freedom and conscience of the other parent and with due regard for the unity and permanence of the marriage and for the maintenance of the communion of the family. If, notwithstanding the Catholic’s best efforts, the children are not baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church, the Catholic parent does not fall subject to the censure of Canon Law.143 At the same time, his/her obligation to share the Catholic faith with the children does not cease. It continues to make its demands, which could be met, for example, by playing an active part in contributing to the Christian atmosphere of the home; doing all that is possible by word and example to enable the other members of the family to appreciate the specific values of the Catholic tradition; taking whatever steps are necessary to be well informed about his/her own faith so as to be able to explain and discuss it with them; praying with the family for the grace of Christian unity as the Lord wills it.

 

[andersonbd1]

Yes, that’s certainly the document I needed. Turns out that sister-in-law has already left the Church (unknownst to us because recently became the Godmother our our daughter and didn’t mention anything). Here’s my response. Do I lay it on too thick? What do you think?​

I certainly understand what you guys are dealing w/ and I know that many factors go into such decisions. I’m sure that you’re only trying to do what’s best for your family and I’m sure that your intentions are good, but the ultimate question isn’t, “what’s most peaceful for the family?”, it’s “what is the truth?”

So, I don’t know what your beliefs are about the Catholic Church, but if you do happen to believe that she is the One, True, Church established by Jesus and that Jesus is really, truly present in the Holy Eucharist, then I don’t think you could ever rationalize willfully leaving the Church for any reason. Protestant churches have lots of great things. Many things are different, but many things are similar. Some of them have features that the average Catholic parish does not and it makes them enticing. There are even people who will bash the Catholic Church. These attacks are almost always based on ignorance and misunderstanding. But none of them can claim what the Catholic Church claims - the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith as presented by Jesus himself.

I only say this out of love for you and your family. The best thing for your family is for you (and if possible, Baby) to be Catholic. If you do have some part of you that seems unsure about your decision, I wouldn’t ignore it, but would use that as motivation to further explore the matter.

I’m guessing most people give the nice response of, “you have to do what’s best for your family”. Probably many Catholics gave you that type of answer. But the Church has a different answer:

This Church’s document on mixed marriages:
adoremus.org/EcumenismNorms.html

1. In view, however, of the growing number of mixed marriages in many parts of the world, the Church includes within its urgent pastoral solicitude coup- les preparing to enter, or already having entered, such marriages. These mar- riages, even if they have their own particular difficulties, “contain numerous elements that could well be made good use of and develop both for their intrinsic value and for the contribution they can make to the ecumenical movement. This is particularly true when both parties are faithful to their religious duties. Their common baptism and the dynamism of grace provide the spouses in these mar- riages with the basis and motivation for expressing unity in the sphere of moral and spiritual values”.140

…

1. In preparing the necessary marriage preparation programmes, the priest or deacon, and those who assist him, should stress the positive aspects of what the couple share together as Christians in the life of grace, in faith, hope and love, along with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit.141 Each party, while continuing to be faithful to his or her Christian commitment and to the practice of it, should seek to foster all that can lead to unity and harmony, without minimizing real differences and while avoiding an attitude of religious indifference.
2. In the interest of greater understanding and unity, both parties should learn more about their partner’s religious convictions and the teaching and religious practices of the Church or ecclesial Community to which he or she belongs. To help them live the Christian inheritance they have in common, they should be reminded that prayer together is essential for their spiritual harmony and that reading and study of the Sacred Scriptures are especially important. In the pe- riod of preparation, the couple’s effort to understand their individual religious and ecclesial traditions, and serious consideration of the differences that exist, can lead to greater honesty, charity and understanding of these realities and also of the marriage itself.
3. When, for a just and reasonable cause, permission for a mixed marriage is requested, both parties are to be instructed on the essential ends and properties of marriage which are not to be excluded by either party. Furthermore, the Catholic party will be asked to affirm, in the form established by the particular law of the Eastern Catholic Churches or by the Episcopal Conference, that he or she is prepared to avoid the dangers of abandoning the faith and to promise sincerely to do all in hisher power to see that the children of the marriage be baptized and educated in the Catholic Church. The other partner is to be informed of these promises and responsibilities.142 At the same time, it should be recognized that the non-Catholic partner may feel a like obligation because of hisher own Christian commitment. It is to be noted that no formal written or oral promise is required of this partner in Canon Law.
4. (not including the text, but I’m over the limit).

Please don’t take this as a condemnation - it is not. I trust you will follow your conscience and if that is away from the Catholic Church, then that’s your decision. We love you guys no matter what and please don’t think this is why we’re not coming to the baptism. Our lack of attendance is merely logistical.

 

[Newbie2]

I would first have discussed my concerns in person (if possible, if not over the phone rather than in an email or letter), but in either case would attend the baptism, presuming as you have said that it’s a valid baptism.

If the parents have chosen to baptize their child in the Protestant faith, and you’ve done your best to inform or persuade them to do otherwise, what is the purpose in “boycotting” the baptism? The child is being baptized into the Christian faith, and as such is joining the Church at large; such is worthy of celebration, methinks.

A valid baptism is a valid baptism.

 

[andersonbd1]

“boycotting” the baptism?

I don’t think you read the whole thing. We’re not boycotting the baptism. It’s out of town. We have 2 little kids. To fulfill our sunday obligation, we’d have to take the kids to a bright and early mass, then go to the baptism service, then go to the baptism reception, then drive 5 hours home. Not sure when our baby would get fed or when the kids would take naps and they’d be expected to be confined all day. In thinking on it, we didn’t think it was a good idea to put us or our kids through that kind of a hectic day.

I also know some people take the opinion that you shouldn’t email what could be said in person. Personally, I take a different approach (not saying it’s right). I articulate briefly in person my position, but provide more details in the email. They have the option of reading it or not. I believe this provides a certain amount of depth and more careful articulation that is difficult to provide in person and would otherwise go unsaid.

 

[Newbie2]

“boycotting” the baptism?

I don’t think you read the whole thing. We’re not boycotting the baptism. It’s out of town. We have 2 little kids. To fulfill our sunday obligation, we’d have to take the kids to a bright and early mass, then go to the baptism service, then go to the baptism reception, then drive 5 hours home. Not sure when our baby would get fed or when the kids would take naps and they’d be expected to be confined all day. In thinking on it, we didn’t think it was a good idea to put us or our kids through that kind of a hectic day.

I also know some people take the opinion that you shouldn’t email what could be said in person. Personally, I take a different approach (not saying it’s right). I articulate briefly in person my position, but provide more details in the email. They have the option of reading it or not. I believe this provides a certain amount of depth and more careful articulation that is difficult to provide in person and would otherwise go unsaid.

I musta missed where you said that it was difficult for you to attend. By “boycott”, I mean deciding not to go (for whatever reason). It was my understanding that you were asking “should we attend”, which I took to mean for theological and not logistical reasons.

 

[andersonbd1]

sorry - I guess I didn’t explain that part in the follow up. I was originally asking “should we attend?” not realizing that she had left the Catholic faith. In the mean time, we realized it would be too hard to go anyways. I agree w/ you that it wouldn’t be right to boycott - what would that prove?

The email I posted is more of an attempt to make a Catholic who has recently left the faith think twice before their Catholic faith becomes a thing of the distant past.

 

[choy]

if she has left the faith, then don’t make her feel bad about it. go, she’s family after all. the worst thing you can do is have the appearace of boycotting the baptism because of faith issues. this will reflect badly on our faith, whether its true or not. we don’t want to come in as snotty Catholics who wouldn’t go to another faith’s ceremony. be charitable and be there, and perhaps that would be the start of getting her, and her family, back into the Church.

 

[andersonbd1]

we’re not going. I agree that it would be nice to go, but we’re not up for making a heroic effort to get there.

getting her, and her family, back into the Church

They are going to church. She has just left the Catholic Church. I bet no one has said anything to her about it besides, “you have to do what’s best for your family”. Doesn’t anyone agree that something should be said? Or should I just confirm her in leaving?

 

[Roy5]

Choy is right. Christianity means several things, but certainly charity, respect for other family members, forgiveness, understanding, etc., all are included.

Many of my wider family circle have been baptized in Protestant churches. My understanding is that generally they are baptized Christian rather than Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. Only at the time of confirmation do they become a member of that particular denomination. And Protestants, of course, change denomination often - when they move, perhaps, or because of the quality of Sunday School, the minister, location, even Sunday parking! The big divide is between liberal and conservative Protestants, not unlike the division that in reality exists among Catholics as well. 

 Before Vatican II Catholics were warned by the church against attending any and all Protestant ceremonies. That was absolutely silly, and it was at the root of much hostility toward the Catholic Church. Anti-Catholicism has dipped enormously since then. Witness, for example, how Protestant presidents have appointed six Catholics and three Jews to the Supreme Court - not as single Protestant, and no outcry from the Protestant majority! 

 Let religion become a bridge and shame on those who keep trying to make it a barrier.

 

[choy]

we’re not going. I agree that it would be nice to go, but we’re not up for making a heroic effort to get there.

They are going to church. She has just left the Catholic Church. I bet no one has said anything to her about it besides, “you have to do what’s best for your family”. Doesn’t anyone agree that something should be said? Or should I just confirm her in leaving?

here in CAF, get used to when people use the big-C for Church, we mean THE Catholic Church. i for one will never use big-C Church to refer to a Protestant denomination

i agree that something has to be said. but you have to think and meditate first if what you’re going to say is the right thing to say or not. if they hear what they do not want to hear, you’re only helping to push they away from the Church. sometimes just being a good example of a Catholic would help people draw to you. once you open their hearts, then they will hear your words

 

[andersonbd1]

i agree that something has to be said. but you have to think and meditate first if what you’re going to say is the right thing to say or not. if they hear what they do not want to hear, you’re only helping to push they away from the Church.

ugh - isn’t it a given that I’ve meditated on it. I’m presenting an email that I have meditated on for days, prayed about, and anticipated repercussions, etc. On looking for feedback on that email. Does anyone have any feedback on that email?

sometimes just being a good example of a Catholic would help people draw to you. once you open their hearts, then they will hear your words

I believe this is a time to use words. I’m specifically looking for feedback on those words.

 

[choy]

ugh - isn’t it a given that I’ve meditated on it. I’m presenting an email that I have meditated on for days, prayed about, and anticipated repercussions, etc. On looking for feedback on that email. Does anyone have any feedback on that email?

I believe this is a time to use words. I’m specifically looking for feedback on those words.

sorry, i’m not saying that you didn’t. i’m just talking about the general approach in such an issue

 

[Newbie2]

I believe this is a time to use words. I’m specifically looking for feedback on those words.

Since nobody knows your relatives or how you get along with them in specific, it’s difficult to comment on whether they’re likely to help, will be rejected, are appropriate, etc.

You decided not to go for whatever reason. Move on.

 

[sharmin]

“boycotting” the baptism?

I don’t think you read the whole thing. We’re not boycotting the baptism. It’s out of town. We have 2 little kids. To fulfill our sunday obligation, we’d have to take the kids to a bright and early mass, then go to the baptism service, then go to the baptism reception, then drive 5 hours home. Not sure when our baby would get fed or when the kids would take naps and they’d be expected to be confined all day. In thinking on it, we didn’t think it was a good idea to put us or our kids through that kind of a hectic day.

Would you put the kids through a hectic day if it were a catholic baptism? Could you possibly attend mass on Sat? Not sure why your baby wouldn’t get fed…couldn’t you guys stop along the way and feed the baby? I’m so confused! LOL Anyway, maybe you’re not as close as I assume, but If she is your child’s godmother, I would move heaven and earth to be there for her on this special day for her, whether you agree with her decisions or not.

"I also know some people take the opinion that you shouldn’t email what could be said in person. Personally, I take a different approach (not saying it’s right). I articulate briefly in person my position, but provide more details in the email. They have the option of reading it or not. I believe this provides a certain amount of depth and more careful articulation that is difficult to provide in person and would otherwise go unsaid.

I just think email is the easy way out sometimes, to avoid actual conversation and dialogue. I also think it can quickly escalate into an argument because we can more easily type things we would never say face to face.

 

[andersonbd1]

Would you put the kids through a hectic day if it were a catholic baptism? ?

quite honestly, yes. Is there anything wrong with that?

maybe you’re not as close as I assume, but If she is your child’s godmother

so maybe it’s not like this everywhere, but we have maybe 1 person we know who could be a godparent and who is a practicing Catholic.

I would move heaven and earth to be there for her on this special day for her

Can I ask why?

I just think email is the easy way out sometimes, to avoid actual conversation and dialogue. I also think it can quickly escalate into an argument because we can more easily type things we would never say face to face.

perhaps in some sense, but I think that leaves our culture totally devoid of any depth. What we’re left with is trite sayings like, “you have to do what’s best for your family” or “I’ll pray for you” or “we’re all God’s children”. What’s wrong with adding a little intellectualism to the mix? I feel like I can articulate much more in an email. Like I said, this isn’t to say I won’t discuss in person as well, but it’s more difficult especially when the other person doesn’t seem open to talking about it

Since nobody knows your relatives or how you get along with them in specific, it’s difficult to comment on whether they’re likely to help, will be rejected, are appropriate, etc.

ok, fine. But general question to the CAF world. In my experience of our culture, we often only encourage people (often when we shouldn’t be) and no one is ever challenged. Why should we be like that? “Do not challenge someone or oppose their decisions” has become the 11th commandment. It doesn’t mean you stop loving them and you make it clear through your actions. But aren’t we supposed to “instruct the ignorant?” I don’t know her that well, but I don’t understand why when people make decisions that will only hurt themselves and their families that everyone makes it as comfortable as possible for them to make such decisions.

You decided not to go for whatever reason. Move on.

Ouch. The whole reason I started this thread is because I love my sister-in-law and her family and that a Catholic is WALKING AWAY FROM HER FAITH. So, I’m supposed to just ignore that and it’s my own problem that I wish to bring her back into the fold?