Attendance of homosexual civil unions

[warpspeedpetey]

Bob_Byrnes:
from your profile you seem quite educated and mature, please respond with an argument in keeping with an intellectual, or in other words provide some proof of your assertion

Sodom & Gomorrah were about promiscuity, not homosexuality.

i have seen some arguments concerning this from pro-homosexual theologians, but on closer examination they dont seem to hold up, further, the obvious bias towards homosexuality limits how much credence these arguments have. if you wish to cite a specific example in regards to it only being a matter of promiscuity let me know so i can look it up.

what qualities of homosexual activity would make it not promiscuous in nature?

this is the definition of ‘promiscuous’ that i have

Distributed or applied without order or discrimination;
not restricted to an individual; common; indiscriminate;
as, promiscuous love or intercourse.
[1913 Webster]

that would seem to be the essence of homosexual carnal activity. in fact the nature of homosexuality in both the common imagination and their own media seem to glorify bath house style promiscuity

further, that story is hardly the end of the biblical mention of homosexuality. for one Leviticus 18:22 where it says not to lay with a man like a woman, that is an abomination

there are more but that one alone should seem sufficient

The Church does have the authority to make these decisions but that doesn’t necessarily say it is always right.(Be careful of creeping infallibility!)

it would seem to be a matter of Faith and Morals about which the magisterium may speak about infallibly, especially as it requires little interpretation, from verses such as the Levitican condemnation posted above

Socities do have the right to determine morality but do so by consensus, not law. Clearly, there is not a consensus that homosexuality is wrong. There is a consensus about polygamy, bestiality and child marriage.

more than 30 states have passed laws to ban recognition of homosexual marriage, including California, arguably the most liberal large state. all have done so with majority votes.

it would seem that there is such a consensus based on those votes. further, just in popular culture there seems to be a lot of anti gay feeling, though i can imagine it is not so noticeable in the more liberal culture of the northeast.

So far as marriage as a civil right and institution, try to get married without a civil marriage license.

the fact that one must have a license is indicative that marriage is not a right, it is a privilege.

 

[joe_clark]

in light of the destruction of sodom and gommorrah for their open homosexuality, and lots wife, being turned to stone for sympathizing homosexuals, what argument do you have that the churches position is wrong?

further in light of Matthew 16:18 where authority to bind and loose are promised by Christ, how do you believe that the Church does not have the authority make these decisions?

further how is it a civil right? no marriage of any kind is enshrined as a civil right, as far as i know.

is polygamous marriage a civil right? is bestial marriage a civil right? what about child marriage?

either we are allowed as a society to decide our common morals, as we currently do, or anything that is not physically harmful goes.

from your profile you seem quite educated and mature, please respond with an argument in keeping with an intellectual, or in other words provide some proof of your assertion

This is another dilemma we face. Constitutional law. Now that Prop 8 was overturned and your ready to pop the corks, another legal door was opened. In California because a law that allowed same sex marriages to occur was repealed by voter referendum, this can also be turned around. What stops the next referendum to turn against heterosexual people who want to marry. Sounds far fetched but not constitutionally. Once you open the door everything and everyone comes in.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

This is another dilemma we face. Constitutional law. Now that Prop 8 was overturned and your ready to pop the corks, another legal door was opened. In California because a law that allowed same sex marriages to occur was repealed by voter referendum, this can also be turned around. What stops the next referendum to turn against heterosexual people who want to marry. Sounds far fetched but not constitutionally. Once you open the door everything and everyone comes in.

yeah people forget this democratic republic is an experiment in self goverment, as it evolves it seems to leave further and further behind any sense of unity or common purpose.

a house divided against itself and all. it is time to retune, we need concerted political effort to reform the activist judiciary, the people rule as the purpose and structure of the government, one man on a bench at this point can do much more damage then millions in referendum.

 

[rpp]

Sodom & Gomorrah were about promiscuity, not homosexuality.

Incorrect. When read in the full context, it is clear that the punishment of those cites was about homosexuality.

I would also point out the promiscuity is all part of the homosexual activist movement and lifestyle.

The Church does have the authority to make these decisions but that doesn’t necessarily say it is always right.(Be careful of creeping infallibility!)

Also incorrect. The Church has all the authority, given to her from Christ Himself, to make a determination as to what is moral behavior and what is not. Not only does the Church indeed posses this authority, it is also obligated to do this. In addition, the Church does this infallibly.

Socities do have the right to determine morality but do so by consensus, not law. Clearly, there is not a consensus that homosexuality is wrong. There is a consensus about polygamy, bestiality and child marriage.

Again, incorrect. Societies, by their nature, are fluid and change over time. Up until a few years ago, Homosexual activities were clearly considered wrong by every society on this planet. That same consensus applies to bestiality, polygamy and child marriage as well. It has only been in the last 30 years that extremists and activists, primarily in the entertainment community, begin to pound this into people and flood the media with homosexual garbage.

So far as marriage as a civil right and institution, try to get married without a civil marriage license.

Irrelevant and inapplicable. Driving is not a civil right, but you need a government issued drivers license to drive.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

It has only been in the last 30 years that extremists and activists, primarily in the entertainment community, begin to pound this into people and flood the media with homosexual garbage.

that hit the nail on the head, you want to restore moral society, turn off the tube, pull politics out of school, we would be way ahead then.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I’ve not read any of these replies, but I will reply as a Catholic myself…

You messed up when you brought the Church into the picture.

At the end of the day, churches, scriptures, music, even *religion * do not matter. At the end of the day, it’s your relationship with people, especially family and friends, that has the most significance in your Life and hers.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[mtocalcutta]

Blade,
I disagree. It seems you would put our horizontal relationships with each other over our relationship to our Creator!

Jesus, Himself did not do that. Many times he risked and even offended followers that left Him due to hard sayings. He didn’t run after them begging, and doing things that would have compromised the Truth He came to die for.

Your post is a good example of what has gone wrong in our Church. First God, then our neighbor. Also, speaking the truth, and not attending offending ceremonies would be an act of love. Of course it would be easier to go, smile and be warm and fuzzy. But, the gospel calls us to love even when it’s hard and the harder route is to stand up for truth, explain why you can’t attend something, explain lovingly the church’s position and it’s not to keep anyone from fun, or love. But for our good and something much higher!

I’m starting to get nauseated with the prevelant weakness to idolize warm fuzzies, making others happy and calling that love, etc! I’m wondering if those that feel such ever read the entire bible, especially the gospels! Abby

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Blade,
I disagree. It seems you would put our horizontal relationships with each other over our relationship to our Creator!

Jesus, Himself did not do that. Many times he risked and even offended followers that left Him due to hard sayings. He didn’t run after them begging, and doing things that would have compromised the Truth He came to die for.

Your post is a good example of what has gone wrong in our Church. First God, then our neighbor. Also, speaking the truth, and not attending offending ceremonies would be an act of love. Of course it would be easier to go, smile and be warm and fuzzy. But, the gospel calls us to love even when it’s hard and the harder route is to stand up for truth, explain why you can’t attend something, explain lovingly the church’s position and it’s not to keep anyone from fun, or love. But for our good and something much higher!

I’m starting to get nauseated with the prevelant weakness to idolize warm fuzzies, making others happy and calling that love, etc! I’m wondering if those that feel such ever read the entire bible, especially the gospels! Abby

It’s not warm fuzzies. It’s considering Life and Death. (Yeah, I totally know I’m going a little “out there”. ) It’s amazing at how a person becomes enlightened and philosophical at the end of their Life. It would be a shame to die, knowing you’ve been unkind to someone, especially a friend or family member, for whatever reason.

It’s just the thought of having guilt on your deathbed, remembering that time you mistreated that one person for believing something different or being someone you think is immoral. You wanna die a peaceful Death, to feel at peace with yourself and with God.

At the end of the day, it’s your relationship with people that you are left with.

 

[mtocalcutta]

Blade,
My screen name is always mtocalcutta. It stands for Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Why? Because I find much inspiration in how to treat others and what true love of others is.

Google her speeches and words to those that would grievously offend our Lord. Would you consider her unkind? I find that she is the perfect example of how to love in word and deed.

Yes, pick up the dying off the streets! Yes, give a kind smile to each person you meet, yes, be patient with family memebers that keep erring over and over! BUT, when it comes to offending basic natural laws, when it comes to participating and witnessing to things that destroy our society, when it comes to things that destroy the soul, I suggest we speak kindly, but the truth, I suggest that we not attend an event that we can’t sit silently therfore giving the appearance of approval.

We ask for forgiveness at the beginning of Mass when we confess the sins in our thoughts, words and deeds. We ask to be forgiven for the things left undone! In other words, this would include keeping quiet and going along with very grave/sinful events. I don’t call that love.

Why is it our culture finds it so hard to understand that love corrects. In the epistles the scriptures speak about the Father disciplining us as children and if we resist that we are no longer children but bastards. How much more proof do we need?

Because many have grown up with either an abusive type family or a family with no rules, boundaries, etc. So, we find revolt everywhere when true, loving discipline, admonition is applied.

Many saints visit hell due to a special grace (although they would have not chosen that grace for themselves but submitted to the will of God) and saw people cursing those that knew that truth but didn’t tell them!

There are numerous scriptures speaking of other’s blood being on our heads when we don’t speak the truth.

Also, this syndrome in our society to throw out the baby with the bath water is amazing. I see complete blindness many times. Why, must we go to the extreme of offering no admonition, warning, etc. just because there has been abuse from others who don’t do this in love and why must we point to those not filled with God’s love and desire as examples?

I am beginning to see that the saints are rarely read! What value they are! What shining stars. What myriads of different personalites living out the same Gospel! I see that many lack wisdom due to not making studying/reading about the saints and their lives! Abby

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Blade,
My screen name is always mtocalcutta. It stands for Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Why? Because I find much inspiration in how to treat others and what true love of others is.

Google her speeches and words to those that would grievously offend our Lord. Would you consider her unkind? I find that she is the perfect example of how to love in word and deed.

Yes, pick up the dying off the streets! Yes, give a kind smile to each person you meet, yes, be patient with family memebers that keep erring over and over! BUT, when it comes to offending basic natural laws, when it comes to participating and witnessing to things that destroy our society, when it comes to things that destroy the soul, I suggest we speak kindly, but the truth, I suggest that we not attend an event that we can’t sit silently therfore giving the appearance of approval.

We ask for forgiveness at the beginning of Mass when we confess the sins in our thoughts, words and deeds. We ask to be forgiven for the things left undone! In other words, this would include keeping quiet and going along with very grave/sinful events. I don’t call that love.

Why is it our culture finds it so hard to understand that love corrects. In the epistles the scriptures speak about the Father disciplining us as children and if we resist that we are no longer children but bastards. How much more proof do we need?

Because many have grown up with either an abusive type family or a family with no rules, boundaries, etc. So, we find revolt everywhere when true, loving discipline, admonition is applied.

Many saints visit hell due to a special grace (although they would have not chosen that grace for themselves but submitted to the will of God) and saw people cursing those that knew that truth but didn’t tell them!

There are numerous scriptures speaking of other’s blood being on our heads when we don’t speak the truth.

Also, this syndrome in our society to throw out the baby with the bath water is amazing. I see complete blindness many times. Why, must we go to the extreme of offering no admonition, warning, etc. just because there has been abuse from others who don’t do this in love and why must we point to those not filled with God’s love and desire as examples?

I am beginning to see that the saints are rarely read! What value they are! What shining stars. What myriads of different personalites living out the same Gospel! I see that many lack wisdom due to not making studying/reading about the saints and their lives! Abby

Everyone of course makes excellent examples, and that’s a part of having a wonderful relationship with people. Mother Theresa definitely had a wonderful relationship with people. Many have-- maybe not as great as hers, but it’s there, no matter what religion that person holds or the color of their skin, or even their orientation.

Something about your reply makes me believe it agrees with me.

 

[mtocalcutta]

Blade,
Of course we mostly agree! The difference is that you appear to believe that attending or withholding the truth about grave offences is the loving thing to do!

That is dangerous and borders, no in fact, according to the Catholic faith is sin! It’s an act of mercy to be authentic and merciful, meaning telling the truth, pleading and NOT attending something as a witness giving the false impression that it is accepted or condoned. It’s a very important difference! Abby

 

[RosaryFan]

When you attend a wedding, you are acting as a witness to the union. Whether you realize it or not, your presence as a “witness” is an affirming action. A Catholic attending this ceremony would be heretical and hypocritical. I would not attend. I would simply explain that I could not be a witness to a union that I don’t believe exists.

Incidentally, my Godchild is toying with the idea of not getting married in the Catholic Church. Rest assured, if she doesn’t, I cannot and will not attend. I couldn’t endanger my soul by watching my “Catholic” Godchild slap Jesus in the face.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Blade,
Of course we mostly agree! The difference is that you appear to believe that attending or withholding the truth about grave offences is the loving thing to do!

That is dangerous and borders, no in fact, according to the Catholic faith is sin! It’s an act of mercy to be authentic and merciful, meaning telling the truth, pleading and NOT attending something as a witness giving the false impression that it is accepted or condoned. It’s a very important difference! Abby

Well… attending a different church, knowing that it’s completely false is not sinful. Why would attending a same-sex wedding, knowing that it’s offensive (which I honestly don’t believe, by the way) be sinful? It’s basically the same concept, just different scenarios.

 

[RosaryFan]

We ask for forgiveness at the beginning of Mass when we confess the sins in our thoughts, words and deeds. We ask to be forgiven for the things left undone! In other words, this would include keeping quiet and going along with very grave/sinful events. I don’t call that love.

Why is it our culture finds it so hard to understand that love corrects. In the epistles the scriptures speak about the Father disciplining us as children and if we resist that we are no longer children but bastards. How much more proof do we need?

mtocalcutta, you are EXACTLY right! Love does not mean a warm fuzzy feeling, otherwise, it would be impossible to “love” our enemies. Love simply means wanting someone’s salvation at any cost - even our enemies. If you want someone’s salvation, you are not silent when they turn against Our Lord. That makes our silence (or lack of action) a sin, because it is a lack of love for our fellow man (or woman).

 

[YipYupYep]

Why would attending a same-sex wedding, knowing that it’s offensive (which I honestly don’t believe, by the way) be sinful? It’s basically the same concept, just different scenarios.

Its hard to relate to your post.

I see you would like to be a religious teacher. By the way our Roman Catholic Education is going down hill, you very well may be working for us, and leading our children further astray.

A same sex wedding is a grievous offense to God and does violence to Him and mocks His Soulful Passion. It is a demonic ritual celebrating this violence and mockery with a false doctrine, sodomy, and evil prayers. No person of faith can attend.

 

[RosaryFan]

Its hard to relate to your post.

I see you would like to be a religious teacher. By the way our Roman Catholic Education is going down hill, you very well may be working for us, and leading our children further astray.

A same sex wedding is a grievous offense to God and does violence to Him and mocks His Soulful Passion. It is a demonic ritual celebrating this violence and mockery with a false doctrine, sodomy, and evil prayers. No person of faith can attend.

Amen to that!

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Its hard to relate to your post.

I see you would like to be a religious teacher. By the way our Roman Catholic Education is going down hill, you very well may be working for us, and leading our children further astray.

A same sex wedding is a grievous offense to God and does violence to Him and mocks His Soulful Passion. It is a demonic ritual celebrating this violence and mockery with a false doctrine, sodomy, and evil prayers. No person of faith can attend.

Apparently, there is no changing your mind… that’s a good thing, but now things are getting redundant.

But paying more attention to your comment on my goals, I can’t say whether I will lead your children astray or not, considering that I’d like to teach college students who are presumably sure of their own beliefs, if not, trying to find out more.

As for teaching Catholicism (which I’m still contemplating), I will do my best in teaching its concepts along with the concepts of other religions. What I’ve been displaying in these many posts are only my opinions.

Bear in mind, I am only seventeen. I’ve got a lot more to learn.

 

[joe_clark]

that hit the nail on the head, you want to restore moral society, turn off the tube, pull politics out of school, we would be way ahead then.

The problem is that The Catholic Church is considered and percieved as an extension of the Republican Party and will be treated as such. Important life issues such as abortion are dismissed with the rest of the political issues. I think as long as abortion is politicized, it will be ignored. Please see majority of posts that end in Republicans good, Democrats bad. This is a problem. If you align yourself with a political party, all issues will be treated with the same callous attitudes. I may get peppered here but: I believe that you cannot legislate abortion for or against. Politics only serves to keep the issue alive without resolving zippo. As long as the battle exsists, the politicians can put the issue on the voting machines convieniently around election time=to get the voters riled up and storm the voting polls=which get’s them elected, and this is the most important part, for them. Don’t kid yourselves. I believe there are honest politicians, just in the minority. It is the human being that chooses life or abortion. Laws against abortion and murder would be irrelevant, if people respected life. This is where the battle begins and ends. It is with you and I.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

The problem is that The Catholic Church is considered and percieved as an extension of the Republican Party and will be treated as such.

thats like saying my body is an extension of my foot.

how else can we make murder illegal, other than pass a law?

the issue must be politicized or no action will occur

the point i was expressing was that instead of morals coming from the home, now they come from the popular media and college class rooms

without the politicization of these issues you are cooperating with an intrinsic evil by not acting

just because the battle is hard does not mean we simply give up. we fight.simple as that

 

[joe_clark]

I am not saying hosexuality is good, I am just staing what I see.
From my own experience in life growing up from grade school to college, homosexuals that I encountered along the way do not appear to choose being this way. I don’t believe that they have a disorder or are mentally ill. They never tried to recruit me or touch me in any way. They were also some of the people that lived in my neighborhood, went to grade school, yes went to church, college and employment. I knew of male kids I grew up with that had a femine way about them from the time they were 9. If you closed your eyes, you would think that the boy was female. It went from funny and odd to strange at about 15 years old. I pray hard because I tortured these people when I was younger. I laughed at them and were afraid of them because that is what I was taught. If a person is homosexual it is not like hitting the lottery. Society is hard and sometimes life threatening to them.

For the benefit of doubt, if a person that is homsexual is born or wired this way, then what? If this were true, then what would the churches position be? This is a possibility and one that people are praying that is not true.