Attended my 1st Orthodox Vespers today. Holy.

[Shamati]

I used to practiced Yoga and eastern meditation in which I activate what is usually called “The third Eye” which is located in the middle of but slightly above the eyebrows. Since i did this I can physically feel a tingling when I get in a spiritual mindset etc.

Anyway, i since turned to christianity but have in my discerning of catholicism noticed some important differences in lithurgy and theology with the orthodox where i sympatize more often with the orthodox more non dogmatic view. I want to be in communion with the successor of Peter but we have bo eastern catholics in Sweden and even more orthodox than catholics and the local catholic church only celebrate a mass that very much resembles the lutheran mass. So i decided to visit a orthodox vespers service and when the priest started to sing/chant in a language i dont even understand i nonetheless was filled with a sense of awe before the immense holiness of this worship. When the Inscense was being swinged at us accompanied by blessings the spot for the third Eye started to tingle for the first time during a. Church worship (usually happens during meditations and such) and I really felt that there is actually something here that is very Holy Holy Holy, as if the Angels of God were present at the Altar and I didnt understand a word of the slavonic language!
I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

Just wanted to share with you the first time i experienced this kind of spirituality in any church worship service I visited thus far. I think I might need to visit the very games latin mass before i male up my mind

Bless you all & plz pray for me that i may find not mine, bit His way and be willing to walk it.

 

[dzheremi]

Vespers is most definitely a foretaste of heaven, no matter what language you experience it in. May God bless you as you continue your journey.

Syriac vespers at St. Ephrem Syriac Orthodox Monastery in Holland

 

[Indifferently]

I like it a great deal. Especially that everything is either sung or chanted. I’m still more at home in a properly executed English Evensong, but Orthodox Vespers I a great treasure indeed.

 

[dshix]

I used to practiced Yoga and eastern meditation in which I activate what is usually called “The third Eye” which is located in the middle of but slightly above the eyebrows. Since i did this I can physically feel a tingling when I get in a spiritual mindset etc.

Anyway, i since turned to christianity but have in my discerning of catholicism noticed some important differences in lithurgy and theology with the orthodox where i sympatize more often with the orthodox more non dogmatic view. I want to be in communion with the successor of Peter but we have bo eastern catholics in Sweden and even more orthodox than catholics and the local catholic church only celebrate a mass that very much resembles the lutheran mass. So i decided to visit a orthodox vespers service and when the priest started to sing/chant in a language i dont even understand i nonetheless was filled with a sense of awe before the immense holiness of this worship. When the Inscense was being swinged at us accompanied by blessings the spot for the third Eye started to tingle for the first time during a. Church worship (usually happens during meditations and such) and I really felt that there is actually something here that is very Holy Holy Holy, as if the Angels of God were present at the Altar and I didnt understand a word of the slavonic language!
I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

Just wanted to share with you the first time i experienced this kind of spirituality in any church worship service I visited thus far. I think I might need to visit the very games latin mass before i male up my mind

Bless you all & plz pray for me that i may find not mine, bit His way and be willing to walk it.

That’s beautiful. I’m very glad for you that you got to experience the beauty of a sung vespers.

 

[aemcpa]

I suggest that you find and attend a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. There are also Catholic churches that worship according to the same Eastern Rites that the Orthodox Churches use, except the Catholic churches are in union with Rome while maintaining their Eastern traditions and rites of worship.

 

[Shiranui117]

I used to practiced Yoga and eastern meditation in which I activate what is usually called “The third Eye” which is located in the middle of but slightly above the eyebrows. Since i did this I can physically feel a tingling when I get in a spiritual mindset etc.

Anyway, i since turned to christianity but have in my discerning of catholicism noticed some important differences in lithurgy and theology with the orthodox where i sympatize more often with the orthodox more non dogmatic view. I want to be in communion with the successor of Peter but we have bo eastern catholics in Sweden and even more orthodox than catholics and the local catholic church only celebrate a mass that very much resembles the lutheran mass. So i decided to visit a orthodox vespers service and when the priest started to sing/chant in a language i dont even understand i nonetheless was filled with a sense of awe before the immense holiness of this worship. When the Inscense was being swinged at us accompanied by blessings the spot for the third Eye started to tingle for the first time during a. Church worship (usually happens during meditations and such) and I really felt that there is actually something here that is very Holy Holy Holy, as if the Angels of God were present at the Altar and I didnt understand a word of the slavonic language!

I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realize it’s probably already time for Liturgy where you’re at, but here is the English translation of the Divine Liturgy; you obviously have a proficiency in the English language, so perhaps this will help:
ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html

Also, here are the rubrics for Vespers in English
holytrinitymission.org/books/english/liturgical_rubrics_1.htm#_Toc70898614

If you’d like, I could help you understand some of the Slavonic–I can teach you how to read it, and some of the really simple prayers, words and responses

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

Yes, I myself love it

Just wanted to share with you the first time i experienced this kind of spirituality in any church worship service I visited thus far. I think I might need to visit the very games latin mass before i male up my mind

A prudent decision.

Bless you all & plz pray for me that i may find not mine, bit His way and be willing to walk it.

Again, my prayers are with you :byzsoc:

I suggest that you find and attend a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. There are also Catholic churches that worship according to the same Eastern Rites that the Orthodox Churches use, except the Catholic churches are in union with Rome while maintaining their Eastern traditions and rites of worship.

Shamati said that Eastern Catholicism is not an option in his/her area; there are no Eastern Catholic churches.

 

[Shamati]

If you’d like, I could help you understand some of the Slavonic–I can teach you how to read it, and some of the really simple prayers, words and responses

Thank you very much, I’d really like that.
Unfortunately I missed the sunday lithurgy But I am definitely gonna keep going there!! It was by far the best public worship service I have ever witnessed in person!

I like to analyze what kind of feelings and thoughts are being evoked by participation in mass and for this I could notice a feeling of “awe” and when the incense was being swinged over me I was thinking “Lord, have mercy, for I am not worthy of such blessings and beauty”.

I will definitely inspire me to strive for being able to clean my inside so that I may offer a clean sacrifice!

This I have never felt so strongly

 

[Indifferently]

I suggest that you find and attend a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

I know some people have great affection for the so called Extraordinary Form, which is for all intents and purposes the Tridentine Mass, but it always seems more of a performance, and a somewhat affected one at that, than a worship experience. The singing is such that it cannot really be done congregationally, because it is often polyphonic. Many of the prayers are said in silence or mumbled by the priest, and the whole thing is in the perfectly functional, but rather primitive, Latin tongue which is not terribly adept at expressing the poetic majesty of God.

Its systematic functionality was, however, very good for empire-building.

 

[Shamati]

Why don’t the catholic church latin rite use the “Divine Lithurgy” of St. John Chrysostom? He’s a saint in the catholic church to.
I’m sad to say it but the mass of the catholic church of today (that I have witnessed) is much more resembling of a protestant one than that of the ancient worship.
Like Benedict said: “What was Holy for people back then, is Holy for us now”
Why’d you think they wanted to change the catholic mass into it’s current form? I can only speculate that they wanted to take a step towards protestantism rather than taking a step towards orthodoxy in hope of conversion…

 

[aemcpa]

I know some people have great affection for the so called Extraordinary Form, which is for all intents and purposes the Tridentine Mass, but it always seems more of a performance, and a somewhat affected one at that, than a worship experience. The singing is such that it cannot really be done congregationally, because it is often polyphonic. Many of the prayers are said in silence or mumbled by the priest, and the whole thing is in the perfectly functional, but rather primitive, Latin tongue which is not terribly adept at expressing the poetic majesty of God.

Its systematic functionality was, however, very good for empire-building.

There is a huge difference between a “performance” and a ritual. Ritual worship is pleasing and acceptable to God if it is offered according to His commands. And since the prayers are being uttered to God by the priest, why it is your concern whether you can hear them? You know what he’s saying on our behalf. It is sufficient that you join your heart to the prayers and sacrifice being offered on your behalf by the person who has been chosen from the among the people to ascend to the altar and offer the sacrifice. And while many Popes have stated that the congregation should sing the parts of the Mass that pertain to them, the burden is on you to prove why it is better to have all music sung congregationally.

 

[Indifferently]

Why don’t the catholic church latin rite use the “Divine Lithurgy” of St. John Chrysostom? He’s a saint in the catholic church to.
I’m sad to say it but the mass of the catholic church of today (that I have witnessed) is much more resembling of a protestant one than that of the ancient worship.
Like Benedict said: “What was Holy for people back then, is Holy for us now”
Why’d you think they wanted to change the catholic mass into it’s current form? I can only speculate that they wanted to take a step towards protestantism rather than taking a step towards orthodoxy in hope of conversion…

I actually think the Novus Ordo would be fine if they had a decent translation and chanted the psalms properly. Luckily, we orthodox Anglicans already have both. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Protestant worship, as long as it is faithful to the practice of the ancient Church.

 

[aemcpa]

Shamati said that Eastern Catholicism is not an option in his/her area; there are no Eastern Catholic churches.

Yes, he did. I missed that in my first reading of the original post.

 

[gmcbroom]

Shamati,

 I'm glad you got to experience a Divine Liturgy in an eastern church.  They can be truly awe inspiring.  As for the masses of today in the Roman Catholic Church they truly are every bit as holy as those celebrated in the Orthodox churches.  After all the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the catholic churches as well.  I understand it may not seem that way to some because hearing the divine liturgy in ones own language can help one understand the mass but sometimes it can take away the mystery of it.  

 My own take on it thus it is my opinion and subject to bias is thus.  Vatican 2 was a council to make spreading the good news easier.  The only problem was its implementation, as that coincided when major social changes were ocurring ie the sexual revolution, abortion issues.  So, you add those things together and you have the confusion we have today.  I am an eastern catholic so I completely understand how difficult it can be to find an eastern catholic parish.  My 2 cents.  Learn about the catholic mass ie divine liturgy and read vatican 2.  

 As for that spiritual feeling you had at the orthodox divine liturgy I'd recommend learning about orthodoxy as well as catholism.  Read the early church fathers and then pray and go where Jesus leads you.

 

[Shamati]

For me, who can not yet partake in the eucharist, I can just as well go to the Lutheran mass in the church I was born into because it is basically the exact same thing as the catholic. And I dont know, I just don “feel it” when I am there. I want to think about God all the time when I’m in church. Theres no incense, there are organs, they shake hands in the middle of the service just like the lutherans.
Also, in the Orthodox church there are information for all senses, just like there used to be in the catholic: smell, sight, singing etc. and nobody except the priest can step behind the altar. Makes me think of the Jewish temple and thus there is a present continuation between Old and New. So for me, i’ll just stay at home and pray for myself if the worship doesnt evoke certain things in me and if I don’t feel it is the ultimate expression of worship that I can show towards God, because I havent been a regular church-goer for more than a couple of years.

 

[aemcpa]

For me, who can not yet partake in the eucharist, I can just as well go to the Lutheran mass in the church I was born into because it is basically the exact same thing as the catholic. And I dont know, I just don “feel it” when I am there. I want to think about God all the time when I’m in church. Theres no incense, there are organs, they shake hands in the middle of the service just like the lutherans.
Also, in the Orthodox church there are information for all senses, just like there used to be in the catholic: smell, sight, singing etc. and nobody except the priest can step behind the altar. Makes me think of the Jewish temple and thus there is a present continuation between Old and New. So for me, i’ll just stay at home and pray for myself if the worship doesnt evoke certain things in me and if I don’t feel it is the ultimate expression of worship that I can show towards God, because I havent been a regular church-goer for more than a couple of years.

There is a profound difference between the Lutheran service and the Catholic Mass. The Catholic Mass is a true sacrifice, wherein the God of the universe truly and substantially becomes present on the altar, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and becomes our food in Holy Communion. Catholic priests are true priests of the new and eternal covenant. Lutherans have no priests and therefore no sacrifice. The Orthodox have true priests and true sacrifice as well, but they are not in communion with Peter. If you know that you must be in a Church with true sacrifice that is in communion with Peter, then you MUST join the Catholic Church or you cannot be saved.

 

[gmcbroom]

aemcpa,
Keep in mind, that what you said is partially true. in the fact that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox are true churches with validly confected eucharists and priests through apostolic succession. One is simply in communion with Peter and the other not. Which brings on the Petrine debate which has kept the two great churches debating for centuries.

Lutherans do indeed have priests and some though illicit do indeed have apolostolic succession though that depends on who ordains whom. However, the Lutherans are more ecclesial communities than churches though they are part of the Church as they share the trinitarian baptism and they have valid marriages as you know a priest simply witnesses a marriage, the celebrants of the marriagae are actually the bride and groom. They lack the other sacraments true so the official Catholic definition of church doesn’t apply but they are members of the church in a broad since though imperfectly.

As for the saved comment well the church has never pronounced who is in hell…so.

 

[Shamati]

There is a profound difference between the Lutheran service and the Catholic Mass. The Catholic Mass is a true sacrifice, wherein the God of the universe truly and substantially becomes present on the altar, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and becomes our food in Holy Communion. Catholic priests are true priests of the new and eternal covenant. Lutherans have no priests and therefore no sacrifice. The Orthodox have true priests and true sacrifice as well, but they are not in communion with Peter. If you know that you must be in a Church with true sacrifice that is in communion with Peter, then you MUST join the Catholic Church or you cannot be saved.

Well, since the catholic church utilizes “positive” theology which gives rise many strange dogmatic statements that have evolved from the dogmas established in the first 7 ecumenical councels I cannot convince myself that the catholic church dogmas are more “true” than the Orthodox which are the same as they have always been. the catholic and orthodox church have pretty radically different ideas on what original sin means and I happen to think that the orthodox position is way more logical than the catholic because the orthodox is similar to judaism while the catholic is more similar to dualistic beliefs. Also, Peter was “the first among equals” not a sole ruler.
While catholic theologians reach dogmatic statements by speculations utilizing pagan philosophical models such as aristotelean while the orthodox claim that noone who have not achieved theosis and theoria can call himself a theologian. Therefor I trust the orthodox more because they have achieved the vision of the uncreated light and dont have the need to paint themselves into a corner with dogmas continuing dogmatic development about marys bodily assumption and immaculate conception etc. since they donts see original sin as putting a “stain” on every individual, but merely separation which we can all heal…

There are many saints in the orthodox church, do you propose they are in Hell?
I don’t believe that the current catholic mass is gives the right Glory to God.

 

[aemcpa]

aemcpa,
Keep in mind, that what you said is partially true. in the fact that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox are true churches with validly confected eucharists and priests through apostolic succession. One is simply in communion with Peter and the other not. Which brings on the Petrine debate which has kept the two great churches debating for centuries.

Lutherans do indeed have priests and some though illicit do indeed have apolostolic succession though that depends on who ordains whom. However, the Lutherans are more ecclesial communities than churches though they are part of the Church as they share the trinitarian baptism and they have valid marriages as you know a priest simply witnesses a marriage, the celebrants of the marriagae are actually the bride and groom. They lack the other sacraments true so the official Catholic definition of church doesn’t apply but they are members of the church in a broad since though imperfectly.

As for the saved comment well the church has never pronounced who is in hell…so.

Of course baptized Lutherans and other baptized Christians are joined to the Church, but they are not in communion with her. And I explicitly stated that the Orthodox have true priests and a true sacrifice but lacked communion with Peter. The Church has pronounced that “those who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it, cannot be saved”. The OP expressed a desire to be in communion with Peter, which makes me think he knows or at least senses that he should enter the Catholic Church. A more subjectively beautiful liturgy elsewhere is not a sufficient cause to refuse to enter into the Church.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

 

[Indifferently]

The first seven ecumenical councils are definitive documents of the Christian faith. The problem with the Church of Rome is that it has to contend with all the other ones that various Popes have convened over the years, which have caused it to err on a number of serious matters. The Eastern churches don’t really have this problem, but they do have problems of their own too. The sort of scholastic, medievalist theology that Rome adopted in the Middle Ages is haunting them gravely, but Vatican II was a very brave step towards moving back to the orthodox Faith of the Fathers and Apostles (even if liberals did try to hijack it for their ends, but Pope Benedict has put a stop to that). I pray that the next Pope will continue in this direction.

 

[aemcpa]

The problem with the Church of Rome is that it has to contend with all the other ones that various Popes have convened over the years, which have caused it to err on a number of serious matters.

A member of the Church of England attempting to claim authority to determine where Rome has erred is supremely ironic.