Attended my second Traditional (high) mass

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EcceAgnusDei said:
It depends on what you mean by the statement. For example, the born-again Christians would use that exact question to dismiss the necessity of the Church and Her Sacraments.

Everything flows from Christ and in that sense, yes, Jesus is enough (infinitely more). But that doesn’t mean we simply discount the Sacraments, the Saints, devotions, prayer, retreats, etc, etc. All of these things help bring us closer to Jesus and without them we would be lost.
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Thank you.

I agree with you.

And for this reason, I beg of the traditionalists to please not dismiss those of us who are not affected in a positive way by Latin, chant, etc.

All of the things that you mention do bring us closer to Jesus, yes. And many of us are brought closer to Jesus by the OF Mass, the vernacular, and the contemporary settings of the liturgy, including practices like seeing the priest’s face and recognizing Jesus in Him.

I am a child of the 1960s, and grew up as an evangelical Protestant during the development and eventual establishment of “Jesus rock” music. I love a lot of the contemporary music, and although I can kind of understand why “Jesus rock” with a full band is probably inappropriate for most Masses, I greatly love the contemporary Catholic hymns that are so often vilified in this section of CAF.

Just yesterday I attended Mass at my parish, and the children (from the school) did the music, and it was all contemporary, with drums, guitar, and piano accompaniment, along with hand-clapping during the recessional hymn, and sung extremely well by a large choir of about 40 children, and it was so beautiful that I was crying during the Mass. I’m still singing various phrases from the songs in my mind as I’m walking through my day!

This didn’t happen when I played for the traditional Catholic school choir a few weeks ago, and they sang a set of traditional Latin hymns. I certainly appreciate the Latin hymns, and respect their value to the Church, and enjoyed hearing the teenagers sing them well. But no tears.

I also love hearing the liturgical prayers, propers, antiphons, etc. in my own dear language (which happens to be English). When I hear Latin used, it does nothing for me. I want to understand. I feel a real urgency to understand everything because I didn’t come into the Church until I was 47, so there isn’t much time left. I’ve spent most of my life in the wrong house, and I need to make up for lost time!

I am grateful that Holy Mother Church allows for a lot of variations in the Mass settings and music. I’m not insisting that the traditions be discarded, and I recognize and respect that there are Catholics, both cradle and convert, who are very much affected emotionally in their hearts by the more ancient Masses and music. That’s beautiful.

All I’m asking is that traditionalist Catholics understand that there are many many Catholics who love the modern Masses and music, and that we are not doing something wrong or anti-Catholic by being attached to these. We are growing closer to Jesus, just like the traditionalists.

We need to respect each other.
 
Cat said:
Isn’t Jesus enough?
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If God thought that just sending Jesus was enough, Pentecost would not have happened.

We are saved through Christ’s life,death and resurrection, but we grow in sanctity by our membership in the Church, participation in the Sacraments and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Since God gave us these things, it is reasonable to conclude that we need them.
 
I never thought I would say this but I am going to have a very difficult time attending the Ordinary Form after I experienced the TLM. Now I know the OF is just as valid form of liturgy and I see many good things in the reform BUT the TLM is holy on many many levels.

This has been my experience. I grew up with the N.O. I hadn’t gone to my first TLM until only a couple of years ago. Of course, it was VERY impressive. At first, my intention was to go once a month, because of course my regular parish was much closer. That quickly went by the wayside. I attend the TLM almost every Sunday now. Only, occasionally do I go to the NO on Sunday. When I go to daily Mass, that’s always the NO. No TLM.
 
Cat said:
I also love hearing the liturgical prayers, propers, antiphons, etc. in my own dear language (which happens to be English). When I hear Latin used, it does nothing for me. I want to understand. I feel a real urgency to understand everything because I didn’t come into the Church until I was 47, so there isn’t much time left. I’ve spent most of my life in the wrong house, and I need to make up for lost time!
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Cat, you wrote a very thoughtful and kind post, I just wanted to add this.

The benefits I’ve found in the traditional Latin Mass are not merely aesthetic. Going to the EF Mass has greatly increased my understanding of the Mass, as well. The theology of the Mass is presented more explicitly, literally, and more repetitively in the EF Mass, while in the OF it is mostly implied.

I really didn’t understand the Mass until I read my 1962 missal through a dozen times. Years with the 1970 missal never taught me what was going on in that way.

I’m not trying to pit the forms against each other. I just wanted to share my experience, too so you know that at least for many people it’s not understanding vs. beauty, I get both.
 
Rich_C said:
The benefits I’ve found in the traditional Latin Mass are not merely aesthetic. Going to the EF Mass has greatly increased my understanding of the Mass, as well. The theology of the Mass is presented more explicitly, literally, and more repetitively in the EF Mass, while in the OF it is mostly implied.

I really didn’t understand the Mass until I read my 1962 missal through a dozen times. Years with the 1970 missal never taught me what was going on in that way.

I’m not trying to pit the forms against each other. I just wanted to share my experience, too so you know that at least for many people it’s not understanding vs. beauty, I get both.
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This is much like my experience. I would even say that I appreciate the doctrinal clarity more than I appreciate the beauty. For example, the Extraordinary form has increased my understanding of the Mass as propitiatory sacrifice and the role of the ordained priesthood.
 
Cat said:
I also love hearing the liturgical prayers, propers, antiphons, etc. in my own dear language (which happens to be English).
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Then the EF is not for you because unless microphones are used, chances are you won’t hear anything at all. That’s why they have handmissals so you can read in Latin or your own dear language. :rolleyes:
 
Cat said:
Thank you.

I agree with you.

And for this reason, I beg of the traditionalists to please not dismiss those of us who are not affected in a positive way by Latin, chant, etc.

All of the things that you mention do bring us closer to Jesus, yes. And many of us are brought closer to Jesus by the OF Mass, the vernacular, and the contemporary settings of the liturgy, including practices like seeing the priest’s face and recognizing Jesus in Him.

I am a child of the 1960s, and grew up as an evangelical Protestant during the development and eventual establishment of “Jesus rock” music. I love a lot of the contemporary music, and although I can kind of understand why “Jesus rock” with a full band is probably inappropriate for most Masses, I greatly love the contemporary Catholic hymns that are so often vilified in this section of CAF.

Just yesterday I attended Mass at my parish, and the children (from the school) did the music, and it was all contemporary, with drums, guitar, and piano accompaniment, along with hand-clapping during the recessional hymn, and sung extremely well by a large choir of about 40 children, and it was so beautiful that I was crying during the Mass. I’m still singing various phrases from the songs in my mind as I’m walking through my day!

This didn’t happen when I played for the traditional Catholic school choir a few weeks ago, and they sang a set of traditional Latin hymns. I certainly appreciate the Latin hymns, and respect their value to the Church, and enjoyed hearing the teenagers sing them well. But no tears.

I also love hearing the liturgical prayers, propers, antiphons, etc. in my own dear language (which happens to be English). When I hear Latin used, it does nothing for me. I want to understand. I feel a real urgency to understand everything because I didn’t come into the Church until I was 47, so there isn’t much time left. I’ve spent most of my life in the wrong house, and I need to make up for lost time!

I am grateful that Holy Mother Church allows for a lot of variations in the Mass settings and music. I’m not insisting that the traditions be discarded, and I recognize and respect that there are Catholics, both cradle and convert, who are very much affected emotionally in their hearts by the more ancient Masses and music. That’s beautiful.

All I’m asking is that traditionalist Catholics understand that there are many many Catholics who love the modern Masses and music, and that we are not doing something wrong or anti-Catholic by being attached to these. We are growing closer to Jesus, just like the traditionalists.

We need to respect each other.
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You are aware that alot of people weren’t even able to experience the TLM until about 6 or 7 years ago right? Many that wish to now, don’t even have one available within their area. And… there are situations where even the idea of having a TLM offered is met with hostile resistance. Yes, much more respect is truly needed.
 
ProVobis said:
Then the EF is not for you because unless microphones are used, chances are you won’t hear anything at all. That’s why they have handmissals so you can read in Latin or your own dear language. :rolleyes:
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Pro, I always hear the priest at the high masses I’ve attended and they generally don’t use microphones.

I’m not saying I always hear them loudly, but I definitely hear the sung parts.

Now low masses are another matter.
 
TrueLight said:
Pro, I always hear the priest at the high masses I’ve attended and they generally don’t use microphones.

I’m not saying I always hear them loudly, but I definitely hear the sung parts.

Now low masses are another matter.
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Yes, good point. But I doubt if some people would care for even their own dear language without amplification and the priest facing them and speaking in their local dialect as well.

As we both know, however, the EF is more than just the text and what the politically-correct translation of “et cum spiritu tuo” is.
 
AdDeum said:
I never thought I would say this but I am going to have a very difficult time attending the Ordinary Form after I experienced the TLM. Now I know the OF is just as valid form of liturgy and I see many good things in the reform BUT the TLM is holy on many many levels.
Click to expand...
This has been my experience. I grew up with the N.O. I hadn’t gone to my first TLM until only a couple of years ago. Of course, it was VERY impressive. At first, my intention was to go once a month, because of course my regular parish was much closer. That quickly went by the wayside. I attend the TLM almost every Sunday now. Only, occasionally do I go to the NO on Sunday. When I go to daily Mass, that’s always the NO. No TLM.

I wish the TLM was closer to me so I could attend it much more often, and go only to Ordinary Form when I have to for things with family that normally do not attend the TLM.
 
I wonder if the situation were reversed, if the EF were everywhere and the OF hard to find (of course in that case the names would be different, but you know what I mean), I wonder how many people would travel an hour, or two, or three, just to go to the OF.

Maybe I’ll start a thread on this.
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EcceAgnusDei said:
I wonder if the situation were reversed, if the EF were everywhere and the OF hard to find (of course in that case the names would be different, but you know what I mean), I wonder how many people would travel an hour, or two, or three, just to go to the OF.

Maybe I’ll start a thread on this.
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In some areas, the priests come so infrequently and/or Masses so rare that the bishops allow communion services. So this hypothetical may come sooner than you think.
 
paperwight66 said:
Fair enough. Who’d have known that the word ‘bored’ meant something so different in Malaysia?
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Not everyone had english as their first language… the church spreads further then the english speaking world…
 
ProVobis said:
Then the EF is not for you because unless microphones are used, chances are you won’t hear anything at all. That’s why they have handmissals so you can read in Latin or your own dear language. :rolleyes:
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Historically since the Mass is a prayer and not a Protestant-like “service”, people’s understanding of every word and gesture the priest gave was not important to them. In fact, Catholics 1000 years ago would have looked very confused if you wanted a complete translation of the Mass. Silence was also a major part of the Mass and considered very important. If one chose to pray during those “silent” parts they were many times encouraged to.
It irritates me when I hear modern Catholics say things like “those little old ladies who prayed the Rosary during Mass…” As if they were doing something wrong. The Mass was and is a prayer, praying is to be encouraged. When the priest prays toward the Tabernacle the people pray with him.
In fact, I’ll have to look it up, but I don’t think handmissals were even used until the 19th century.
 
JustaServant said:
Historically since the Mass is a prayer and not a Protestant-like “service”, people’s understanding of every word and gesture the priest gave was not important to them. In fact, Catholics 1000 years ago would have looked very confused if you wanted a complete translation of the Mass. Silence was also a major part of the Mass and considered very important. If one chose to pray during those “silent” parts they were many times encouraged to.
It irritates me when I hear modern Catholics say things like “those little old ladies who prayed the Rosary during Mass…” As if they were doing something wrong. The Mass was and is a prayer, praying is to be encouraged. When the priest prays toward the Tabernacle the people pray with him.
In fact, I’ll have to look it up, but I don’t think handmissals were even used until the 19th century.
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Wonderful point. The Council of Trent anathemizes a lot of today’s common objections to the EF Mass because they were voiced by the Protestants, also.

I think the first hand missals for laity came about in the early 20th century. I found a 1914 Catholic prayer book although it contained the whole missal it was called the “server’s part.” The “part of the laity” on the other hand, had prayers to be said at different parts of Mass that complemented the priest and server’s prayers but were not drawn from the missal.
 
And I’ll say that once the content of the missal was firmly in my head and heart from repetition, I stopped reading along (except the propers) and began just praying in my own words all through Mass, conforming each of my prayers to father’s intentions at that point in the Mass.
 
Rich_C said:
Wonderful point. The Council of Trent anathemizes a lot of today’s common objections to the EF Mass because they were voiced by the Protestants, also.

I think the first hand missals for laity came about in the early 20th century. I found a 1914 Catholic prayer book although it contained the whole missal it was called the “server’s part.” The “part of the laity” on the other hand, had prayers to be said at different parts of Mass that complemented the priest and server’s prayers but were not drawn from the missal.
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I believe in the large Cathedrals of Europe during the Middle Ages the music during a High Mass was far more complicated than today. Each choir, musician, and leader had a different text for thier part of the Mass. There was no complete text for the people, only the priest and the musicians.
I’ll start a thread on the subject, and look it up later today.
 
JustaServant said:
Historically since the Mass is a prayer and not a Protestant-like “service”, people’s understanding of every word and gesture the priest gave was not important to them. In fact, Catholics 1000 years ago would have looked very confused if you wanted a complete translation of the Mass. Silence was also a major part of the Mass and considered very important. If one chose to pray during those “silent” parts they were many times encouraged to.
It irritates me when I hear modern Catholics say things like “those little old ladies who prayed the Rosary during Mass…” As if they were doing something wrong. The Mass was and is a prayer, praying is to be encouraged. When the priest prays toward the Tabernacle the people pray with him.
In fact, I’ll have to look it up, but I don’t think handmissals were even used until the 19th century.
Click to expand...
Good point… The Mass IS a prayer and not a “service”, and the priest is praying to GOD. This is why I don’t freak out if don’t understand every word being said
 
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