L
lozeerose
Guest
Thansk you all for the insight and information. I have yet to make my final decision because I certainly do not with to embarass my wife in any way. It just irks me that there may be some mistruths being stated…
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C
CEM5
Guest
Hi Erich,
Yes, I know those points - I have been taught well.
Nonetheless, once the whole canon of the Bible was officially promulgated, those words are now inclusive of the whole context of the Bible, for the NT is the fullfillment of the OT. Timothy is speaking to those as a reminder of those Scriptures in OT that pointed to Christ, as Christ also did for His Apostles:
Luke 24:32 RSVA
They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the scriptures?”
Luke 24:45 RSVA
Then He opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
Prophecy does not connote only predictions of the future - but also means the words of God spoken by those men inspired by God. He is God’s intermediary. That is also the meaning of a prophet.
The last warning in the Bible from the Book of Revelation is now also inclusive of the whole content of Scripture - does not remain alone for the last book only. No one has the right to take away any words from the official canon of Scripture.
blessings,
Yes, I know those points - I have been taught well.
Nonetheless, once the whole canon of the Bible was officially promulgated, those words are now inclusive of the whole context of the Bible, for the NT is the fullfillment of the OT. Timothy is speaking to those as a reminder of those Scriptures in OT that pointed to Christ, as Christ also did for His Apostles:Luke 24:32 RSVA
They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the scriptures?”
Luke 24:45 RSVA
Then He opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
Prophecy does not connote only predictions of the future - but also means the words of God spoken by those men inspired by God. He is God’s intermediary. That is also the meaning of a prophet.
The last warning in the Bible from the Book of Revelation is now also inclusive of the whole content of Scripture - does not remain alone for the last book only. No one has the right to take away any words from the official canon of Scripture.
blessings,
C
Crumpy
Guest
My opinion: don’t go.
If it’s possible, go to a Catholic bibles study group. Look around, it might be there waiting for you.
when I lived in Elmhurst IL, I went to the “coffee break” scripture study at a local protestant church. What was instructive was how they conducted the study. I thought the group leaders were very well prepared and their study material helped everybody to work through the scripture – but it was distinctly non-Catholic, for sure.
after four years of attendance, there was a new member, a crusty seasoned church member there, and he “jumped me” about purgatory because I had asked a challenging question. I asked for the biblical justification for something and before I got an answer, he was miffed about my just asking the question in the first place.
So, I quit. I always said to myself that I was a guest there, and that I would behave as a guest. And, part of that, was to know when to leave, when I was no longer treated like a guest.
But, there’s better Catholic study material available now, so, don’t even bother with your wife’s session.
If it’s possible, go to a Catholic bibles study group. Look around, it might be there waiting for you.
when I lived in Elmhurst IL, I went to the “coffee break” scripture study at a local protestant church. What was instructive was how they conducted the study. I thought the group leaders were very well prepared and their study material helped everybody to work through the scripture – but it was distinctly non-Catholic, for sure.
after four years of attendance, there was a new member, a crusty seasoned church member there, and he “jumped me” about purgatory because I had asked a challenging question. I asked for the biblical justification for something and before I got an answer, he was miffed about my just asking the question in the first place.
So, I quit. I always said to myself that I was a guest there, and that I would behave as a guest. And, part of that, was to know when to leave, when I was no longer treated like a guest.
But, there’s better Catholic study material available now, so, don’t even bother with your wife’s session.
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. Not all Baptists are as closed-minded as is painted. I would go and listen to see if it is worth engaging in dialog.
I have led a Bible Study in our church for some years. The pastor and I take turns in teaching. I am currently teaching Luke and Acts as a unit. We have had Catholics sit in, along with a friend who belongs to Assemblies of God. All have offered valuable insights. Being afraid of what other Christians have to offer is just what Satan loves.
A true Bible Study rather than an indoctrination should be open to many points of view. I will teach a class on Lutheranism for new members next year and it will be a very different experience than a Bible Study and will in fact be indoctrination. That is the whole point of catechesis. I would never dream of calling it Bible Study. Of course, I think of a remark that the local priest made to a Baptist. He asked the man which church he attended. When the man said he was Baptist, the priest said, “So you don’t believe in anything.” One of his parishioners and I got the joke, but it was over the Baptist’s head. Ah, the humor of confessional churches!
I have led a Bible Study in our church for some years. The pastor and I take turns in teaching. I am currently teaching Luke and Acts as a unit. We have had Catholics sit in, along with a friend who belongs to Assemblies of God. All have offered valuable insights. Being afraid of what other Christians have to offer is just what Satan loves.
A true Bible Study rather than an indoctrination should be open to many points of view. I will teach a class on Lutheranism for new members next year and it will be a very different experience than a Bible Study and will in fact be indoctrination. That is the whole point of catechesis. I would never dream of calling it Bible Study. Of course, I think of a remark that the local priest made to a Baptist. He asked the man which church he attended. When the man said he was Baptist, the priest said, “So you don’t believe in anything.” One of his parishioners and I got the joke, but it was over the Baptist’s head. Ah, the humor of confessional churches!
C
CEM5
Guest
So true Oldtimer! Good reminder.
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
Everybody has a different temperment and whether you go depends on yours. If you can go and keep your mouth shut it will be an enlightening experience. I do not have that capacity. After my wife became Evangelical she put the full court press on me to attend this 'non-denominational" bible study called Bible Study Fellowship International. I went to 5 meetings and got so vocally pist off they asked me to leave (nicely, of course.) Non-denominational is fundamentalist speak for no Catholics need apply.
I will not go to her church except on Easter, Christmas, Mother’s Day and her birthday.
The fact of the matter, and this is my experience with every Baptist I have ever met, is that they KNOW everything the Catholic Church teaches is wrong. They don’t know what it teaches but they know it’s wrong, including the Deuterocanon. So you might learn something but you won’t teach anything…
In summary: closed mouth - go, open mouth - stay home. In either case pray.
C
CEM5
Guest
Good post! That was my experience as well - only it went even more so, when I quoted Scripture to refute their position, (I did so very gently), I was told that satan knows scripture very well and can quote it too (implying that my knowledge of Scripture came from the devil - of all things!!
) They didn’t like it that when they started talking about idol worshipping and how Catholics worship graven images, I explained that graven images were anything that took theplace of God, and we Catholics worship God above all else and that our icons were reminders of God and statues were like family pictures - reminders of holy men and women, who we look at as good examples of Christian piety. Then I used Scripture and reminded them that God commanded the Israelites to make statues of cherubim (angels) and woven into the veil of the Tabernacle, were pictures of flowers, angels and other “creatures and creation”. I also mentioned that God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent on a pole and in order for healing, they were to look upon this pole of the bronze statue!! Boy-oh-boy! The Baptist leader did not like that at all for he couldn’t refute a thing I said and I had just used the “Bible only” to demonstrate that carved items and pictures are not graven images if used as God deemed.It was also interesting another time when he started teaching about 1 Cor 3,
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
I then told them that this is where we get “purgatory” from - which means “purging” and this is what happens to those Christians who are going to heaven, yet are not “pure” enough to enter, for we still carry those venial sins along with us that we haven’t repented of before our time of death.
He got mad, but the other people there just said “ohhh!” because this was the first time they had ever seen this and heard about our tie to the Bible of purgatory. Straight from Scripture. He just said “Well, we don’t believe in purgatory”. I did not reply to that
because Scripture said it all. :heaven:P.S. I sure hope you go to the Catholic Easter services and those other mandatory Masses too.
Does your wife reciprocate also? Go to your Mass?
F
FaithJoy
Guest
This is my opinion, it depends on the maturity of your marriage. You know your marriage, we don’t. If you think your wife will support you and respect what you say, do it. Only provided you keep in mind to restrain yourself when someone else gets out of line in the group and that you don’t go too fast. This would be a long process to get your message across, it may take several group meetings.
C
CrimsonCatholic
Guest
I second on that. Now I am not saying they will be rude, but in order to be be protestant, The Catholic Church has to be wrong, otherwise… why would you not be Catholic Than.
Be prepared.
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
It’s an uphill battle! I didn’t mean to imply that I ever went to the Protestant service in lieu of Mass. I went in addition to Mass. I am a daily communicant. My wife, who is an exemplary Christian, left the Church because of horrid catecsis and worse implementation. She was an EMHC, a rosary group leader, a parish council member, a CCD teacher, we were a marriage prep FOCUS couple, she even went to Medjugorja (sic) in 1983. The reason she’s out is legion but it was not the “real” Catholic Church she left, it was this hideous AmCurch remnant where there is no right and wrong. I just wish she’d have gone to be an Orthodox instead of Evangelical.He got mad, but the other people there just said “ohhh!” because this was the first time they had ever seen this and heard about our tie to the Bible of purgatory. Straight from Scripture. He just said “Well, we don’t believe in purgatory”. I did not reply to that
P.S. I sure hope you go to the Catholic Easter services and those other mandatory Masses too.
J
jmcrae
Guest
NOPE, zealot here, and actually I agree. Catholics should not attend non-Catholic Bible studies and absolutely not for the purpose of evangelizing. I completely agree with you - it is a recipe for disaster on every front, and especially the home front.
J
jmcrae
Guest
If she brings up questions, discuss them with her gently and lovingly.
I would say, don’t come down on your wife like a ton of bricks and don’t crash her Bible class - the “ton of bricks” treatment is what CAF is for - the safety of anonymity works both ways - and it’s always a bad idea to try to fight the enemy in his own house. Meet him on neutral ground, or else invite him to your house, where you will have all the advantages.
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lutherlic
Guest
I also agree and think it would be inappropriate as well.
C
CEM5
Guest
That is so sad to hear that. No matter what a singular parish’s faults are, is it a pitty that she left the whole Church because of this one parish. For me, it is no reason: she could have found a more faithful Catholic parish - there are plenty out there. She should have first brought up her concerns to the Bishop, because maybe this parish was straying (? liberalism) which our Pope is against.
I liken it to the analogy that if a person attends a school (which is mandatory up to a certain age), and there is a teacher who incorrectly teaches and perhaps abuses students, people don’t leave the whole system - they report the abusive teacher, and/or leave THAT school and still attend another affiliated school but are taught as they were meant to be taught. They don’t leave the sytem and teach of their own accord new ideas that are incorrect just because they didn’t like that particular teacher.
It is sad to hear that she left the true Church because of one parish, but it is not an excuse. She has to stand before God one day and cannot blame anyone for her choice. She decided to leave of her own free will. I pray that your good example and love and patience will prevail and her eyes will be opened, her ears will hear, and her heart return to the living Presence of the Eucharist which is only found in the “Catholic” Church.
Point out to her John 6:66 (note that number - ironic!!) They too left, because they didn’t like what they were being told and taught by Jesus.
blessings and prayers
P
PJM
Guest
Ask her if she and her friends beleive what the bible actually says?
This quote is from the KJBV
** 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. **
Then ask if you believe ALL the bible is TRUE and inspired by God; then on what basis does your church accept a biblw with Seven FEWER BOOKS and many verbage changes?
Either the bible is inspired from God ALL OF IT or it is of no spiritual value at all.
Z
Zenas
Guest
This is good and wise advice. If a Catholic accompanied his/her spouse to a Bible study in my church that person would be made to feel welcome and treated with the utmost respect. The leader would undoubtedly ask the Catholic visitor about Catholic views of the scripture being studied and those views would be well received. We would do the same with a member of any other religious group–Christian or otherwise.
However, if the Catholic visitor volunteered to prove the leader wrong and more or less took over the class, he/she would probably be contacted later and asked not to do this if they came back. It’s just not nice come on another person’s turf to evangelize.
That is the attitude of my church and I believe most Southern Baptist churches, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship churches and American Baptist churches. It is not the attitude of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches. If that is where you are going to explain anything about your faith, they will not listen to you. They will, however, remind you that the Pope is the antiChrist, that Catholics have persecuted and killed untold millions of real Christians, and that anyone who embraces Catholic beliefs will certainly go to Hell.
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
Actually, over a period of several years, she went to 5 different parishes. The problems here are diocesan in nature and were created, over a number of years, by a very modernist mentality at the top. The point is, what was being told and done didn’t have a whole lot to do with Jesus but it had a lot to do with feel good. Did you ever see a clown throwing handfuls of candy out to the first communicants as part of a homily (don’t worry, it wasn’t the presider giving the homily)? Well, I have. Who’s going to bear that for years and years when they read the Bible and see how hokey such stuff is?That is so sad to hear that. No matter what a singular parish’s faults are, is it a pitty that she left the whole Church because of this one parish. For me, it is no reason: she could have found a more faithful Catholic parish - there are plenty out there. She should have first brought up her concerns to the Bishop, because maybe this parish was straying (? liberalism) which our Pope is against.
I liken it to the analogy that if a person attends a school (which is mandatory up to a certain age), and there is a teacher who incorrectly teaches and perhaps abuses students, people don’t leave the whole system - they report the abusive teacher, and/or leave THAT school and still attend another affiliated school but are taught as they were meant to be taught. They don’t leave the sytem and teach of their own accord new ideas that are incorrect just because they didn’t like that particular teacher.
It is sad to hear that she left the true Church because of one parish, but it is not an excuse. She has to stand before God one day and cannot blame anyone for her choice. She decided to leave of her own free will. I pray that your good example and love and patience will prevail and her eyes will be opened, her ears will hear, and her heart return to the living Presence of the Eucharist which is only found in the “Catholic” Church.
Point out to her John 6:66 (note that number - ironic!!) They too left, because they didn’t like what they were being told and taught by Jesus.
blessings and prayers
L
lozeerose
Guest
Sunday stopped by and went - so did I. My wife is a Sunday school teacher at the church there and needed the help so before I could even say that I felt uncomfortable going because I did not want to put her on the spot for my beliefs, I was enlisted as her teaching assistant.
That went well because it is her class and my job is to follow her lead (and be extra silly with the 2-year-olds). But then came the Bible Study.
Right before the Sunday school class let out I was tasked with buying some doughnuts for the adult class. I took that opportunity to pray earnestly to the Holy Spirit for guidance. If it is your will, provide me the opportunity and give me the words. If it is not, please give me the patience and humility to sit quietly and learn their view. All in your glory - Amen!
The class started and it was no class. It was simply a fellowship - this week. The regular instructor was not present and requested that the class meet and “fellowship.” We did, I ate, I drank - and the Holy Spirit gave me an opportunity.
I was talking to a guy (nice fellow, met him before at a bar-b-que hosted my a friend of my wife’s) and we spoke on things like rasing kids in a secular word, etc. Well, needless to say I spoke quite about how my faith influences my outlook on life and children and how that has changed as I returned to the Church.
He eventually asked me if I had been to a church like this one and I mentioned yes, with my wife as I grew up in a Catholic household and remain Catholic today. There was an implication on his part concerning the denomination as I am sure I said plenty about the differences in my faith tradition and his.
He went on to say that his cousin was recently ordained in Arizona and that the bishop there did not allow him to minister in his home parish. I began to speak about the hierarchy of the Church and he replied with questions that were soon answered. This went on for a good 45 minutes and to the degree that no one approached or butted in. My wife and his got up and left without saying a word - and there was no negativity afterward.
All in all, this guy shook my hand and left stating that it was refreshing to speak to a Christian, let alone Catholic, that was confident in his knowledge about scripture and history, etc. I thanked him and the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly enough, I was approached by another person prior to me exiting the room and he broached the subject of the Bible. It seemed awkward and out-of-place so I did not continue and went to sit with my wife.
I am intrigued enough to entertain the possibility of returning next week because from the conversation I had with the first gentleman it seems to me that all of the classic, textbook arguments against the Deuterocanon and the Church were being disseminated and I feel a need to be there to keep things honest and shake things up if necessary. Only if this is God’s will!
I will be praying a whole lot this week…
Thanks again to everyone for your insight and prayers. Keep 'em coming. I LOVE BEING CATHOLIC!
That went well because it is her class and my job is to follow her lead (and be extra silly with the 2-year-olds). But then came the Bible Study.
Right before the Sunday school class let out I was tasked with buying some doughnuts for the adult class. I took that opportunity to pray earnestly to the Holy Spirit for guidance. If it is your will, provide me the opportunity and give me the words. If it is not, please give me the patience and humility to sit quietly and learn their view. All in your glory - Amen!
The class started and it was no class. It was simply a fellowship - this week. The regular instructor was not present and requested that the class meet and “fellowship.” We did, I ate, I drank - and the Holy Spirit gave me an opportunity.
I was talking to a guy (nice fellow, met him before at a bar-b-que hosted my a friend of my wife’s) and we spoke on things like rasing kids in a secular word, etc. Well, needless to say I spoke quite about how my faith influences my outlook on life and children and how that has changed as I returned to the Church.
He eventually asked me if I had been to a church like this one and I mentioned yes, with my wife as I grew up in a Catholic household and remain Catholic today. There was an implication on his part concerning the denomination as I am sure I said plenty about the differences in my faith tradition and his.
He went on to say that his cousin was recently ordained in Arizona and that the bishop there did not allow him to minister in his home parish. I began to speak about the hierarchy of the Church and he replied with questions that were soon answered. This went on for a good 45 minutes and to the degree that no one approached or butted in. My wife and his got up and left without saying a word - and there was no negativity afterward.
All in all, this guy shook my hand and left stating that it was refreshing to speak to a Christian, let alone Catholic, that was confident in his knowledge about scripture and history, etc. I thanked him and the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly enough, I was approached by another person prior to me exiting the room and he broached the subject of the Bible. It seemed awkward and out-of-place so I did not continue and went to sit with my wife.
I am intrigued enough to entertain the possibility of returning next week because from the conversation I had with the first gentleman it seems to me that all of the classic, textbook arguments against the Deuterocanon and the Church were being disseminated and I feel a need to be there to keep things honest and shake things up if necessary. Only if this is God’s will!
I will be praying a whole lot this week…
Thanks again to everyone for your insight and prayers. Keep 'em coming. I LOVE BEING CATHOLIC!
- Status