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GKC
Guest
Indeed, it is as you say; no more need be said.
As for me, there is considerable more I know about the subject, in general, but you are certainly not obligated to have the same level of information.
GKC
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As for me, there is considerable more I know about the subject, in general, but you are certainly not obligated to have the same level of information.
GKC
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GKC
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Not when the data contradicts itself over and over again.
“Hanging out with ‘other Christians’ to discuss God’s Word
does NOT include allowing their churches to teach one Scripture.”
“Catholics do not “learn” from teachers who have abandoned the Catholic Faith, even when the abandonment is one of historical tradition.”
“Can we rocgnize outpourings of Truth, thanks to the holy Spirit, among other Christians?
Yes. We can recognize it, praise it and give thanks for it.”
“Yet I’ve already stated that I DO accept that.
Did you get lost among posts?”
“The Bible is interpreted in various ways by various denominations.
Would I take such a chance with my Faith? Never.”
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Catharina, Triune is indeed a friend. I’m proud to say so. No quotes needed. It is people like you that have driven away plenty of people from Catholicism in CAF. You are uncharitable, sarcastic, biting, rude, and irreverent. You don’t seek to convince, you seek to tear down. Saying stuff like “listen pal!” shows you have alot of sarcastic issues to deal with. I talk with a lot of Catholics in here. I disagree with most. But I usually like the people. They don’t leave a bad taste in my mouth and seek to use their religion to slam and hurt others. They just seek to defend and broaden understanding. I fail to understand your purpose. You just throw out Matthew 16:18 over and over and over and inject a few insulting nouns of direct address. You’re not being a good apologist for your faith. You use no effective quotations or opinions from the ECF’s, you never cite scripture apart from the forementioned Matthew 16, and your posts are primarily digs.
I can’t speak for Triune as to whether he is trying or wants to understand you. I think he does. So do I. God bless you and I hope you’ll take a deep breath, back off for a while, go get a good night sleep and re-read all your posts in here. Ask yourself prayerfully, honestly, and seriously if you think you did your part to be a charitable, thoughtful, loving poster or if you simply provoked and inflamed?
I can’t speak for Triune as to whether he is trying or wants to understand you. I think he does. So do I. God bless you and I hope you’ll take a deep breath, back off for a while, go get a good night sleep and re-read all your posts in here. Ask yourself prayerfully, honestly, and seriously if you think you did your part to be a charitable, thoughtful, loving poster or if you simply provoked and inflamed?
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GKC
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GKC
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Well, I do sort of donate to a Continuing Anglican jurisdiction.I think you should donate yourself to a Continuing Anglican church body, so they can just run through the history of the English Reformation by linking you up to PowerPoint!
Oddly enough, they have never asked about Hank’s Great Matter, though.
GKC
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Nicea325
Guest
Several early church fathers believed it was the CONFSSION of Peter? Sources please…
Does not matter if the Orthodox,Anglicans and Lutherans share the same view,history does not favor their view. I can provide numerous sources clearly showing how both Eastern and Western bishops appealing to Rome…LONG before the Anglican church or Lutheran existed. Both are newbies in comparison to the RCC/Orthodox chruches.
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Nicea325
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Your comment is open to interpretation. What do you mean by learn about Scripture? Theology? Historical background? Be more specific.
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TriuneUnity
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In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).
And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.’ Then He added, ‘and I say unto thee.’ As if He had said, ‘Because thou hast said unto Me, “Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;” I also say unto thee, “Thou art Peter.” ’ For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which Thou hast confessed, upon this rock which Thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.
For men who wished to be built upon men, said, ‘I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, ‘But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter. This same Peter therefore who had been by the Rock pronounced ‘blessed,’ bearing the figure of the Church (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VI, St. Augustin, Sermon XXVI.1-4, pp. 340-341).
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TriuneUnity
Guest
‘And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’; that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd…For the Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son; but the Son gave him to sow that of the Father and that of Himself in every part of the world; and to mortal man He entrusted the authority over all things in Heaven, giving him the keys; who extended the church to every part of the world, and declared it to be stronger than heaven (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume X, Saint Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3; pp. 332-334).
Let no one then foolishly suppose that the Christ is any other than the only begotten Son. Let us not imagine ourselves wiser than the gift of the Spirit. Let us hear the words of the great Peter, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ Let us hear the Lord Christ confirming this confession, for ‘On this rock,’ He says, ‘I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.’ Wherefore too the wise Paul, most excellent master builder of the churches, fixed no other foundation than this. ‘I,’ he says, ‘as a wise master builder have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.’ How then can they think of any other foundation, when they are bidden not to fix a foundation, but to build on that which is laid? The divine writer recognises Christ as the foundation, and glories in this title (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953), Volume III, Theodoret, Epistle 146, To John the Economus, p. 318).
This faith is that which is the foundation of the Church; through this faith the gates of hell cannot prevail against her. This is the faith which has the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever this faith shall have loosed or bound on earth shall be loosed or bound in heaven…The very reason why he is blessed is that he confessed the Son of God. This is the Father’s revelation, this the foundation of the Church, this the assurance of her permanence. Hence has she the keys of the kingdom of heaven, hence judgment in heaven and judgment on earth…Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter’s mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955), St. Hilary, On The Trinity, Book VI.36,37; Book II.23; Book VI.20.
He confessed that ‘Christ’ is ‘the Son of the living God,’ and was told, ‘On this rock of sure faith will I build my church’—for he plainly confessed that Christ is true Son (The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis (Leiden: Brill, 1994), Books II and III, Haer. 59.7, 6-8,3, pp. 108-109).
Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it ‘Peter,’ perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: ‘For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.’ To whom be glory and power forever (St. Basil of Seleucia, Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297).
Whom do you say that I am?’ Instantly, the Coryphaeus of the apostles, the mouth of the disciples, Peter, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God…Upon this faith the Church of God has been founded. With this expectation, upon this rock the Lord God placed the foundations of the Church (Homily of the Nativity. Cited by J. Waterworth S.J., A Commentary (St. Paul of Emesa, London: Thomas Richardson, 1871), p. 148).
This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded. Against this the gates of hell, the mouths of heretics, the machines of demons—for they will attack—will not prevail. They will take up arms but they will not conquer (St. John of Damascus, Homily on the Transfiguration, M.P.G., Vol. 96, Col. 554-555).
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Nicea325
Guest
U-huh just as I thought,been there,done that a billion times. You’re reading Scripture in an either/or fashion. The above argument is called using eisegesis, i.e., of reading one’s theology into the text.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Uhm, what are you talking about? Those are quotes from the church fathers. You asked for sources where some of the fathers said the rock was Peter’s confession. There you are.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
In Isaiah 28:16 Christ is called the rock as the cornerstone of Zion. We are told Christ is the rock again in 1 Peter 2:8. Both show us Christ as the Rock. One rock is enough, some might say.
But regarding the Fathers, here’s the answer to your question:
If we, too, have said like Peter ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’…we become a Peter. For every disciple of Christ is a Rock. And upon every such rock is built every word of the Church and the polity in accordance with it.–Origen (c. 245, E) 9.456
"But if you suppose that upon only Peter the whole Church is built by God, what would you say about John, the son of thunder, or about each one of the apostles? Shall we dare to say that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against Peter in particular, but that they will prevail against the other apostles…?–Origen
I’m getting tired of typing quotes I find so I’ll keep this simple…
**St. Cyril of Alexandria **(In Is.4, or. 2 pg 70, 940) tells us that Christ Himself is the rock
**St. John Chrysostom **(In Matt. hom. 54, 2; in Gal. comm. I, I) say the Rock is a symbol of Peter’s faith, the rock not actually being him
Epiphanaeus and Theodoret say the same things as above (Haer. 59, 7) and (Quaest. in Exod. interr. 68.) respectively
Chrysostom also says in his Matt. homily 54, 3 “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church’ that is upon the faith of his confession.”
Mark, the friend and follower of Peter, whose teaching he repeats does not record that Jesus said anything in reply to Peter’s confession probably because Peter did not speak of it in his teachings and wished it passed over in silence. But Peter published to all men his denial, hence Mark records it. This is a proof that Peter was far removed from self-love…Eusebius(Dem. Evang. 3,5)
But regarding the Fathers, here’s the answer to your question:
If we, too, have said like Peter ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’…we become a Peter. For every disciple of Christ is a Rock. And upon every such rock is built every word of the Church and the polity in accordance with it.–Origen (c. 245, E) 9.456
"But if you suppose that upon only Peter the whole Church is built by God, what would you say about John, the son of thunder, or about each one of the apostles? Shall we dare to say that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against Peter in particular, but that they will prevail against the other apostles…?–Origen
I’m getting tired of typing quotes I find so I’ll keep this simple…
**St. Cyril of Alexandria **(In Is.4, or. 2 pg 70, 940) tells us that Christ Himself is the rock
**St. John Chrysostom **(In Matt. hom. 54, 2; in Gal. comm. I, I) say the Rock is a symbol of Peter’s faith, the rock not actually being him
Epiphanaeus and Theodoret say the same things as above (Haer. 59, 7) and (Quaest. in Exod. interr. 68.) respectively
Chrysostom also says in his Matt. homily 54, 3 “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church’ that is upon the faith of his confession.”
Mark, the friend and follower of Peter, whose teaching he repeats does not record that Jesus said anything in reply to Peter’s confession probably because Peter did not speak of it in his teachings and wished it passed over in silence. But Peter published to all men his denial, hence Mark records it. This is a proof that Peter was far removed from self-love…Eusebius(Dem. Evang. 3,5)
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doughnut
Guest
Hi, even if you sincerely think that Catherina is being ‘that whole list of uncharitable names’ that you called her, by slapping on with more of your ‘disdain’ towards her, isn’t that provoking her? By provoking another person, are you not guilty of encouraging her to be exactly what you accused her of? I read through the previous posts, and I cannot sincerely agree with you that your friend is entirely innocent.
Ultimately, even if there is no common agreement on views, there should at least be common agreement of mutual respect.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
You pretty much just took my post, dough, and repeated it verbatim with slightly different verbage and tried to accuse me of what she is doing, not me. The mutual respect is lacking on her part. I’m not provoking. Look at the “hey pal!” and “get it!” type snide remarks she made and look at what Triune said and really ask yourself if it was as mutually disrespectful as you think. Triune challenged her with the usual biblical, historical, and commonsensical debate he is accustomed to in here and she lost her cool because she couldn’t respond without a simple Matthew 16:18 quote and a rant to go along with it.
By the way, glazed, maple bar, or frosted?
By the way, glazed, maple bar, or frosted?
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Reuben_J
Guest
What you are attending is not an ecumenical Bible study group but a specific Anglican’. You have certainly liked being in this group and that’s good. As a Catholic, you can expect certain bias here, the group being Anglican. On that aspect you have to expect it and I think you’d be not in a position to say,** “but there was only one Church then, duh**” when the group leader made that unwanted snide remark, ***“When Paul is addressing the Church of Rome, he does not mean Roman Catholics, Paul would not know what a Roman Catholic was” (snicker, snicker from the back). ***
From a purely Biblical study stand point it would not be wise for you to join another denominational group simply because the interpretation is more often than not tend to follow the doctrinal line. If however you are sufficiently established in the knowledge of Catholic doctrine then by all mean have fun joining them. You can always contribute from a Catholic perspective or at least you can get the Anglican understanding from the same scripture.
But I suppose you go for this study because you like and perhaps enjoy the fellowship. It’s a good thing you ask question here about your participation there. If you must join this group, I can only say, please be aware that they interpret some Biblical verses somewhat different from us and it should not be taken as the correct one.
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Reuben_J
Guest
If the ‘rock’ is to mean Peter’s confession, Christians have nothing to lose and the Church may very well built on this confession, which it is. This verse however does not say confession and that makes trying to see it that way can be a bit tricky. I can understand why Protestantes need to say that the rock is Peter’s confession. I wish it really is Peter’s confession and then both Catholisc and Protestants would agree on this verse. Then Catholics only have to depend on the giving of the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter as a basis forPeter’s primacy.
Mathew 16 (NIV)
15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. **19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; **whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
**If Mathew had written: **
18And I tell you that you are Peter (rock). And on your confession that I am the the Christ, the Son of the living God, it is on this I will build my church, …” then I suppose there will be no argument.
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