Attending Mass at a Calvinistic Church

[rcwitness]

1928

True. And there is definitely not a strict prohibition against attending Non-Cat services. But there is also a reason to not think that these services are equal to the Catholic Mass.

I, on occasion, attend services. But it’s not to promote/condone their separation and protest of the See of Rome.

My daughter just went to an E-Free youth group invitation for Valentine’s Day. The kids were allowed to invite a friend to come.

I just attended an independent church memorial for my cousin who passed away. My non-Catholic family members criticized the pastor’s sermon, and I actually defended it and told them they were wrong to criticize.

I am a God-parent to my Lutheran neice!

Still, I don’t believe it’s proper to attend their services as a substitute for Sunday obligation, or as a way to support their separation from Catholic unity found in His Eucharist and Communion with Rome.

The more we participate in non-Catholic Christian services, the more responsibility we have to promote this unity.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Nothing I said indicated how well he understood his Catholicism. Perhaps he understood it far better than you understand yours. It is easy to say “ignorant Catholics become Protestant, educated Protestants become Catholic” because it makes you feel good and educated and spiritually superior, and it is a comfort, and is a safeguard, I suppose, that you are not ignorant, therefore you will not slip from the fold. But what you and I are both ignorant of was how well that individual knew his Catholicism. Perhaps he really understood it, and the agony of understanding what it should be and what he actually saw in practice was too much to bear, an agony perhaps you can soothe over because you have not experienced or known what he has. I never found out what his beef was and I never wanted to ask because I sensed there was a volcano and I was not the right one to poke the magma.

I was speaking in general, not necessarily about the individual you cited

 

[Tomyris]

I was speaking in general, not necessarily about the individual you cited

How does that change anything?

 

[Magdalena59]

Wow.

We actually get a lot of Catholic visitors and we are friendly, sometimes getting into conversations with them. I recall a service in which the pastor asked everyone who was formerly Catholic to raise their hands - about 75% of the congregation did.

We don’t try to convert Catholics. Mostly they have decided to leave by the time they show up. Some are very bitter at what they have seen in the leadership, or have experienced abuse, or have been disenchanted with the legalism that is taught at parish level, or the liberalism that permeates many parishes, and they are seeking a more authentic Christianity than they can find in the Catholic Church as life-long Catholics and graduates of Catholic schools.

Most Reformed churches don’t call themselves Calvinist, and certainly do not call the service a Mass, most certainly and definitely not. I find the OP’s notice in the church bulletin to be very odd. Perhaps he could quote it in context, and explain why he feels obligated to go? Calvinist churches would not be placing anything in a Catholic church bulletin, especially about attending their service.

You are right that there are a lot of Catholics out there in the protestant churches, I used to be one, but it is not because of legalism or the reasons you believe.

Much of the reasons there are so many Catholics attending protestant churches is because for the last 50 or so years they have not been properly catechized by the Church. They have not been taught the truths of the Catholic faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles, that which is true christianity, the fullness of faith found in the Catholic church. Also a false ecumenism has been encouraged which increases the confusion.

Sad to say there are angry Catholics out there. They are lost and confused. They do not know where to turn once they enter the protestant churches because of so many different doctrines. When I left the protestant church and returned to the Catholic church there was someone left in the protestant church I last attended that was on her 32nd denomination. That may sound like an exaggeration but it is not.

God bless.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

How does that change anything?

Always exceptions to the norm.

And i do not believe you fully understood the message i was trying to convey about true conversion of heart. The come to Jesus moment. That’s a Catholic thing as well.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

You are right that there are a lot of Catholics out there in the protestant churches, I used to be one, but it is not because of legalism or the reasons you believe.

Much of the reasons there are so many Catholics attending protestant churches is because for the last 50 or so years they have not been properly catechized by the Church. They have not been taught the truths of the Catholic faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles, that which is true christianity, the fullness of faith found in the Catholic church. Also a false ecumenism has been encouraged which increases the confusion.

Sad to say there are angry Catholics out there. They are lost and confused. They do not know where to turn once they enter the protestant churches because of so many different doctrines. When I left the protestant church and returned to the Catholic church there was someone left in the protestant church I last attended that was on her 32nd denomination. That may sound like an exaggeration but it is not.

God bless.

Great post. 5 stars

 

[Tomyris]

You are right that there are a lot of Catholics out there in the protestant churches, I used to be one, but it is not because of legalism or the reasons you believe.

Much of the reasons there are so many Catholics attending protestant churches is because for the last 50 or so years they have not been properly catechized by the Church. They have not been taught the truths of the Catholic faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles, that which is true christianity, the fullness of faith found in the Catholic church. Also a false ecumenism has been encouraged which increases the confusion.

Sad to say there are angry Catholics out there. They are lost and confused. They do not know where to turn once they enter the protestant churches because of so many different doctrines. When I left the protestant church and returned to the Catholic church there was someone left in the protestant church I last attended that was on her 32nd denomination. That may sound like an exaggeration but it is not.

God bless.

When I was contemplating converting, one thing that struck me was a consistent determination by the priest and the director of adult ed to not ever teach anything in the catechism or authentic Catholic belief. The homilies I heard at a number of churches had little spiritual content - one was a narration on where the bishop had stood when he had come: ‘by that pillar, and then he stood here, and then there’ and the director of adult ed taught we could not know ‘the Jesus events’
because the gospels were written hundreds of years later. He literally taught Islamic prayers in RCIA.

People come to Protestant churches because they are hungry for truth. If the Catholic Church has it, don’t you think it is the very worst of crimes that its ministers refuse to feed their flocks?

When you hear the story of how a priest raped an acolyte before Mass and the family took their son to the doctor, who verified it, and then they brought it up to the diocese who told them they were bad Catholics and it had never happened, and Father X is a good priest, (they transferred him to another church, where later you learn he did it again and again) and you hear and read about these things happening repeatedly, and how the Catholic Church has lost a horrendous amount of money in lawsuits, you really wonder.

People leave because they were intellectually, morally and physically raped by the leadership. They have every right to be angry. Their pastors did not protect them. Their pastors were the predators, and the bishops protected the priests, not the innocent and vulnerable.

 

[Mammoths]

My understanding of the Catechism is that Catholics should not attend/participate in the religious ceremonies of other Faiths. You truly have no obligation to attend.
It will not be a Mass it will be a service. Our Blessed Lord will not be present for the ‘communion’ this service will offer because it will not be offered by a
Catholic priest and there will not be a true consecration.

But he PROMISED!!!
“Wherever two or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”

He will be there, just not in transubstantiation.

 

[Magdalena59]

When I was contemplating converting, one thing that struck me was a consistent determination by the priest and the director of adult ed to not ever teach anything in the catechism or authentic Catholic belief. The homilies I heard at a number of churches had little spiritual content - one was a narration on where the bishop had stood when he had come: ‘by that pillar, and then he stood here, and then there’ and the director of adult ed taught we could not know ‘the Jesus events’
because the gospels were written hundreds of years later. He literally taught Islamic prayers in RCIA.

I agree with you that some of these things can be a problem. Many times RCIA leaders do not talk much about the catechism but the catechism is in print and can be read easily. I suggest the Baltimore catechism. It is pretty straightforward and to the point.

Homilies at times could be better but that applies at any church. As a protestant I remember walking away from sermons feeling unfulfilled and other times they were good. That is something that is a mixed bag.

Also, these are issues in the protestant churches also. There are protestants that say the same things about the gospels and one Methodist church I tried handed out a pamphlet with Islamic prayers.

People come to Protestant churches because they are hungry for truth. If the Catholic Church has it, don’t you think it is the very worst of crimes that its ministers refuse to feed their flocks?

I agree people are hungry for the truth and yes it is a horrible crime for anyone to be misled and not know the truth.

When you hear the story of how a priest raped an acolyte before Mass and the family took their son to the doctor, who verified it, and then they brought it up to the diocese who told them they were bad Catholics and it had never happened, and Father X is a good priest, (they transferred him to another church, where later you learn he did it again and again) and you hear and read about these things happening repeatedly, and how the Catholic Church has lost a horrendous amount of money in lawsuits, you really wonder.

People leave because they were intellectually, morally and physically raped by the leadership. They have every right to be angry. Their pastors did not protect them. Their pastors were the predators, and the bishops protected the priests, not the innocent and vulnerable.

These are sad cases of abuse that should never happen. We should be outraged when it happens and no matter where it happens. It is horrible. There is a perspective to keep though and that these incidents do happen elsewhere, and again sex abuse is something that happens also in protestant churches, schools and homes. This abuse is something that the Catholic church is working very hard to correct.

But despite the priest scandal and the poor homilies there is so much more, that is so much greater in the Catholic church that isn’t anywhere else in the whole world and that is the Eucharist, the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ given to us everyday, also the other sacraments and all the graces that Christ gives to us through the Church.

 

[Contarini]

This response makes me ever so sad. About 20 years ago I was attending a Catholic parish and the priest encouraged much the same as what you are saying. There were many interfaith events. I attended many. After attending these events, I and many others left the Catholic church. It was 12 years without the Eucharist. That was 12 long tearful years because after leaving the Catholic church it was very difficult for me to find my way home. I wandered from denomination to denomination, (every wind of doctrine). The confusion left me crying many a Sundays, crying out to God over the confusion I found in the multitude of denominations. Thank God He led me back home to the Catholic church. It was been the absolute best thing.

I understand encouraging dialogue and evangelizing and loving non-Catholics but to encourage Catholics to attend protestant churches will lead and has led many souls to a place without the Eucharist, the source and summit of our faith. That leaves them empty.

Many of my friends are still gone, some have become atheists and are still confused. I pray for them. How many souls have been lost over false ecumenism.

True ecumenism leads people to the Catholic church where they encounter Christ in the Eucharist. Why would we not want that for non-Catholics?

I really don’t get this. It seems fearful and unreasonable to me. If the Eucharist is so wonderful, why would people leave it? Why did you leave? If living without the Eucharist was so awful, why didn’t you come back sooner?

It breaks my heart when I hear of Catholics leaving the Church. It’s one of the reasons I’m finally making a serious attempt to enter myself in spite of my remaining heterodoxies. I don’t want to enable people leaving the Catholic Church in any way. (One of my students at my former institution was a Catholic and wound up becoming Episcopalian. I had put out information on my office door about my Episcopal parish, intending it for Protestant students without a strong church affiliation who might be interested in something more liturgical. The one student who saw it and became seriously interested was a Catholic. I tried to talk her out of leaving the Catholic Church, but I recognize that my example probably spoke louder than my words.) But I don’t think slamming the windows shut so they can’t see what is attractive outside is the answer.

Edwin

 

[Sy_Noe]

A common fellowship and shared worship/belief should not be misunderstood as Non-Catholic services being a substitute for a Catholic’s obligation to participate in Mass. Not that you suggested it does, but it should be noted, right?

If Father did not suggest that it does, why did you feel it necessary to bring it up in relation to his post? Another poster had already spoken about attending a UMC service but going to Mass to fulfill the obligation.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Our Calvinist friends don’t celebrate masses, just not what they do.

Around these parts most of your “calvinists” are presbyterians or baptists, and they usually only have communion quarterly, so their service will be most music and a long sermon.

No prayer?

Some churches from the reformed tradition I know to have communion monthly.

 

[Mammoths]

I really don’t get this. It seems fearful and unreasonable to me. If the Eucharist is so wonderful, why would people leave it? Why did you leave? If living without the Eucharist was so awful, why didn’t you come back sooner?

It breaks my heart when I hear of Catholics leaving the Church. It’s one of the reasons I’m finally making a serious attempt to enter myself in spite of my remaining heterodoxies. I don’t want to enable people leaving the Catholic Church in any way. (One of my students at my former institution was a Catholic and wound up becoming Episcopalian. I had put out information on my office door about my Episcopal parish, intending it for Protestant students without a strong church affiliation who might be interested in something more liturgical. The one student who saw it and became seriously interested was a Catholic. I tried to talk her out of leaving the Catholic Church, but I recognize that my example probably spoke louder than my words.) But I don’t think slamming the windows shut so they can’t see what is attractive outside is the answer.

Edwin

Nobody is perfectly reasonable this side of glorification–not even me! :hey_bud:

We all need grace. Even you could be cheated.

 

[Mammoths]

No prayer?

Some churches from the reformed tradition I know to have communion monthly.

Usually the prayer is a pre-amble or epilogue of the sermon. The pastor covers the points in prayer he covered in the sermon as if to review. I went a few years where the prayer was mostly like a list of intentions.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Good day

I just want to say thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have followed your responses for quite some time and I have to say I and I am sure others “from my side” value your informed (name removed by moderator)ut.

I do not get to do with many Catholics in real life and sadly this forum would have given me a wrong impression of Catholicism if it wasn’t for a Priest like yourself and some other posters I have encountered.

Regards

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate it.

This forum gives a very poor impression of Catholicism indeed. I encounter ideas and concepts that have been outdated for decades. It is remarkable.

I am sorry that I never made it to South Africa. I worked for several years with a member of a Religious Order who was from there and, of course, we had South Africans passing through regularly. I would have been very pleased to have visited there or even to have spent some extended time there.

You would, I dare venture to say, find the Catholics in real life in South Africa leaving you with a better impression than what one encounters here. Conversely, I am very impressed by the quality of posts by non-Catholics here.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.*Mortalium Animos No. 10, Pope Pius XI

The pontificate of Pius XI is far removed from where the Church is today.

This has been superannuated.

Thanks be to God.

 

[BornInMarch]

Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think Catholics are permitted to attend non-catholic masses just so long as they do not take communion.

 

[Michael85]

The pontificate of Pius XI is far removed from where the Church is today.

This has been superannuated.

Thanks be to God.

The modern situation is largely due to the infection of ecumenism which has risen to the level of an epidemic. Ecumenism (except that which has as its goal the return all non-Catholics to the Catholic Church) is a fundamental denial of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The Council of Florence teaches (i.e. this is infallible doctrine):

**
“It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”**

 

[horselvr]

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate it.

This forum gives a very poor impression of Catholicism indeed. I encounter ideas and concepts that have been outdated for decades. It is remarkable.

I am sorry that I never made it to South Africa. I worked for several years with a member of a Religious Order who was from there and, of course, we had South Africans passing through regularly. I would have been very pleased to have visited there or even to have spent some extended time there.

You would, I dare venture to say, find the Catholics in real life in South Africa leaving you with a better impression than what one encounters here. Conversely, I am very impressed by the quality of posts by non-Catholics here.

Father: I am curious to know how long you have been a priest, your age and if you have a parish. You are a Catholic priest? I have to say I am having a difficult time agreeing with you especially the statement that “this forum gives a very poor impression of Catholicism.”
What I see are faithful Catholics expressing the teachings of the Church. I’m also curious to know “what other ideas and concepts” you feel “have been outdated for decades.”

 

[rcwitness]

The pontificate of Pius XI is far removed from where the Church is today.

This has been superannuated.

Thanks be to God.

Can you provide any modern Church statements which encourage Catholics to participate in non-Catholic services? Is that what ecumenism refers to?

Can I opt to join my Non-denominational family member’s Sunday worship service instead of Mass sometimes?

Or does ecumenicism (of lay Catholics) mean an open hearted and peaceful dialogue, conversation, fellowship and study with members of separated denominations?

Here are some more modern statements from UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

In ecumenical dialogue, Catholic theologians standing fast by the teaching of the Church and investigating the divine mysteries with the separated brethren must proceed with love for the truth, with charity, and with humility. When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a “hierarchy” of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith. Thus the way will be opened by which through fraternal rivalry all will be stirred to a deeper understanding and a clearer presentation of the unfathomable riches of Christ (UR, 11)

Here is the decree 50 years after *THE PROMULGATION
OF THE CONCILIAR DECREE “UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20041111_kasper-ecumenism_en.html

This Council was not so naïve as to underestimate the danger inherent in this integration of the ecumenical movement into the eschatological dynamic of the church. The eschatological dynamic could – as so often in the history of the church – be misunderstood as a progressive movement in which the deposit of older traditions is felt to be outdated and is discarded in the name of a so-called progressive understanding of the faith. Where this occurs, there is a real danger of relativism and indifferentism, of a ‘cheap ecumenism’ which in the end makes itself redundant. In this way ecumenism has on occasion fallen prey to movements critical of the church and been instrumentalised against the church.