Attending Protestant church?

[DebChris]

It is because of the differences between Catholic teaching and those of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters mentioned by Striker that the Catholic Church does require attendance at Mass before worshiping with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters.
There is no interdenominational communion.

Our separated brothers and sisters are not responsible for actions that took place 500 years ago. There are pious individuals in every denomination.
Interaction with separated brothers and sisters does mean being able to defend the Faith. You may be asked such questions as “Why is Christ still on the Cross?” Most denominations do not have crucifixes.

Some denominations have breakfast before Sunday morning service. Interfaith Hospitality Network works with homeless families by providing them with shelter at different churches. One church provides the meals for the week, while the other serves as shelter for the families. Invited to a Sunday morning breakfast, I refused the Baptist invitation because I was fasting before Mass. It served as an opportunity to explain developing “spiritual hunger” for the Eucharist.

Definitely be aware of anything that makes you uncomfortable. The health and wealth gospel, for example, is very popular today. The preacher of a newly built church in a local city was on the television. He told the congregation “Do such and such and repent afterward.” My immediate reaction was he just told his congregation to sin. “God tells no man to sin.”
This of course is one of those “non-denominational” churches that spurns main-line churches, that has never undergone persecution, or had to stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[steve93]

Its just a proselytizing ploy.
I should know.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m guessing that your post’s responses here, Deb, are in reply to me…?

Don’t forget the power of the Sacraments that we have received, and the strength that they afford us.

Reception of the Eucharist doesn’t guard against errors in judgment, understanding, or doctrinal interpretation.

The basic tenets of our Faith are contained in the Nicene Creed.

Yes, but the issue isn’t whether the basics of the faith are understood. Rather, the issue here is the question of whether, in the throes of a discussion on finer points of doctrine, the average person would recognize an error in teaching.

I depend on the power of the Holy Spirit to guide me.
That is how falsehoods can be spotted.

Funny you should bring that up. That’s how Protestant communities tend to defend their interpretations of Scripture and doctrine that are at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church – “the Holy Spirit has convicted me of the truth.” :sad_yes:

Does what is being said line up with Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium?

Yep. That’s the only answer that matters. My question is: can the average Catholic at a Protestant gathering make that assessment accurately, over a wide range of topics? (Of course, that issue isn’t solved by avoiding contact – it’s solved through effective faith formation.)

That is not usually going to be the case. We share much more with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters than not. Our Catholic Faith is richer

Yes, this can result. Yet, especially given this perceived “richness”, wouldn’t the appropriate response be to invite others to join us, rather than going out and joining them? Hmm…

 

[DebChris]

I’m guessing that your post’s responses here, Deb, are in reply to me…?

Reception of the Eucharist doesn’t guard against errors in judgment, understanding, or doctrinal interpretation.

Yes, but the issue isn’t whether the basics of the faith are understood. Rather, the issue here is the question of whether, in the throes of a discussion on finer points of doctrine, the average person would recognize an error in teaching.

Funny you should bring that up. That’s how Protestant communities tend to defend their interpretations of Scripture and doctrine that are at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church – “the Holy Spirit has convicted me of the truth.” :sad_yes:

Yep. That’s the only answer that matters. My question is: can the average Catholic at a Protestant gathering make that assessment accurately, over a wide range of topics? (Of course, that issue isn’t solved by avoiding contact – it’s solved through effective faith formation.)

Yes, this can result. Yet, especially given this perceived “richness”, wouldn’t the appropriate response be to invite others to join us, rather than going out and joining them? Hmm…

Are you practicing your Faith on a daily basis?
This is your best witness, as St. Francis is credited with saying. This is the person who does know his or her Faith, and can word it in simple terms, even if he or she doesn’t quote chapter and verse from Scripture.
For example, Catholics are often asked why they have statues and pictures of Saints in their homes. I would point to the statues of heroes that towns erect. My mother’s faith, which was simpler was to respond, “Do you keep pictures of your children? The Saints are her children.” She was able to silent any critic. Those who came into the Church because of her came from outside Christianity.

In my first post, I did mention returning the favor of an invitation to Mass.
It begins by accepting the invitation given by a non-Catholic friend to their service.
As mentioned, also in conversation with individuals in less than friendly to Catholic circumstances, I have been able to disabuse them of falsehoods they had concerning Catholic teaching. Had I been unwilling to meet on their home turf, would that person ever have been willing to set foot in a Catholic church?
It is my willingness to engage in dialogue with those whose views may differ from my own that plants the seed of unity.

The more I engage in dialogue with my separated brothers and sisters, the better I become at answering the different questions they have and refuting misconceptions concerning Catholicism. Our goal is the same, and the reality is that we have more in common than not.

 

[BornInMarch]

I’d say it’s fine, just so long as you don’t accept the communion. Only take Communion at Catholic Churches.

 

[DebChris]

…
Yes, but the issue isn’t whether the basics of the faith are understood. Rather, the issue here is the question of whether, in the throes of a discussion on finer points of doctrine, the average person would recognize an error in teaching.
…

I don’t concern myself with debating theology with anybody. Most individuals are not theologians.
My son-in-law is a Presbyterian minister. Obviously I have listened to his services and heard him preach. I borrow his books, notably St. Augustine and Dietriech Boenhoeffer. I do not discuss theology with him.
Because it was something he wanted, I did give him a Vulgate Bible one Christmas. We both pray the Liturgy of the Hours. While living in the Middle East, I had the 3 volume version used in Britain and much of the world. When I returned stateside I gave it to him and purchased the 4 volume set that is more commonly used stateside.

As Catholics, we do have the grace of the Sacraments. We do have the Holy Spirit as guide. Blatant errors in teaching, such as a preacher telling his congregation to “do such and such and then repent” are easy to spot.

Since it was mentioned in an earlier post, several years ago Time magazine ran an article about the number of non-Catholics who were starting to pray the rosary.

 

[Gorgias]

Are you practicing your Faith on a daily basis?

In fact, I am. Thanks for asking.

In my first post, I did mention returning the favor of an invitation to Mass.
It begins by accepting the invitation given by a non-Catholic friend to their service.
As mentioned, also in conversation with individuals in less than friendly to Catholic circumstances, I have been able to disabuse them of falsehoods they had concerning Catholic teaching. Had I been unwilling to meet on their home turf, would that person ever have been willing to set foot in a Catholic church?
It is my willingness to engage in dialogue with those whose views may differ from my own that plants the seed of unity.

Good on ya. And, perhaps, for you, it’s a good idea. Perhaps you do know the ins and outs of what the Church teaches sufficiently well that you’d never get caught up off-balance in a discussion of justification and salvation, or of penal substitution, or even of “call no man Father” or why priests don’t marry.

Not all can, however. And therefore, it’s less than prudent to suggest that we all engage in ecumenical dialogue, especially “dialogue” in a setting of a Protestant worship and preaching service at which the “dialogue” is probably more “proselytism.”

Blatant errors in teaching, such as a preacher telling his congregation to “do such and such and then repent” are easy to spot.

Yes, this is true. However, it’s not the question I asked. I’m not asking “can you identify the obvious red herrings?”, but rather, “how would you know that you know enough Catholic teaching in order to recognize – and not fall prey to – the subtle red herrings?”…

 

[DebChris]

In fact, I am. Thanks for asking.

Good on ya. And, perhaps, for you, it’s a good idea. Perhaps you do know the ins and outs of what the Church teaches sufficiently well that you’d never get caught up off-balance in a discussion of justification and salvation, or of penal substitution, or even of “call no man Father” or why priests don’t marry.

Not all can, however. And therefore, it’s less than prudent to suggest that we all engage in ecumenical dialogue, especially “dialogue” in a setting of a Protestant worship and preaching service at which the “dialogue” is probably more “proselytism.”

Yes, this is true. However, it’s not the question I asked. I’m not asking “can you identify the obvious red herrings?”, but rather, “how would you know that you know enough Catholic teaching in order to recognize – and not fall prey to – the subtle red herrings?”…

I asked about practicing the faith as a rhetorical question.
The criteria the Church gives for attending non-Catholic services is simply to first attend
Mass. We receive the grace of the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments. I do rely on that grace much more than personal knowledge to protect me in any given situation.
The OP was invited to a non-Catholic service as part of a personal relationship.
That invitation can be accepted and returned with the understanding of no interdenominational Communion.
There is no reason to debate theological issues within a worship service. I never have. I have merely shared that which we hold in common. That is all that is usually needed.
It is this sharing that changed preconceived views that the person had concerning what the Catholic Church teaches.
A person does not have to return to an uncomfortable situation that blatantly contradicts what the Catholic Church teaches.

As I have also mentioned throughout this thread, while practicing the Faith may be sufficient protection, a person is likely to be challenged with continued encounters from separated brothers and sisters. There are resources available like the Catholic Answers Bible to help with questions that may be asked. It also becomes easier with personal spiritual development and interaction with others to respond to these challenges.

 

[thistle]

**How many of us live in a Catholic community, surrounded only by people who believe as we do? **
Don’t forget the power of the Sacraments that we have received, and the strength that they afford us. The basic tenets of our Faith are contained in the Nicene Creed. I depend on the power of the Holy Spirit to guide me.
That is how falsehoods can be spotted.
Does what is being said line up with Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium?

I was once invited to a church where I had concerns by things I saw. Moreover, she did not accept my return invitation. No, I didn’t go back.
That is not usually going to be the case. We share much more with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters than not. Our Catholic Faith is richer and generally I find non-Catholic services boring as result.

I am not suggesting for a moment becoming complacent. Continue to read Scripture. It takes 15 daily to read the Bible in one year. Daily Mass readings cover the Bible in 3 years. We contemplate on the mysteries of the Gospel when we pray the Rosary, the Gospel message that all Christians have in common.

I do. I live in the Philippines which is an 85% Catholic country.

 

[Gorgias]

I asked about practicing the faith as a rhetorical question.

I noticed. What an odd response to my challenges to your position…

The criteria the Church gives for attending non-Catholic services is simply to first attend
Mass.

OK, you’ve said this a few times, and my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I’ve never heard it said officially (as in “for the universal Church” or even "for the Churches in the United States) that the requirement is to attend Mass first. Yes, it’s true that one still has the obligation to attend Mass, even though he attend a non-Catholic service… but it’s the “first” part that’s piqued my interest. Do you have a citation or reference for that claim?

We receive the grace of the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments. I do rely on that grace much more than personal knowledge to protect me in any given situation.

And, as I mentioned (and still maintain!), the grace of the sacraments has never been claimed to include “increase in personal knowledge.” (Oh, yeah, sure… we can talk about the ‘gifts of the Holy Spirit’ as received at Confirmation, but that’s quite a stretch, if you’re claiming that the Holy Spirit defends you from misunderstandings of doctrine. That’s nothing that the Church teaches… )

There is no reason to debate theological issues within a worship service.

And that’s not what’s in play, either. We’re not talking “know your faith so that you can enter into apologetic discourse at a Protestant service”… we’re just talking “know your faith so that you can recognize conflicting teachings when you encounter them.”

 

[fencersmother]

How about this? Ask your kindly friend if he would agree to attend Mass with you first. He is not asking you to an ice cream social. He’s asking you to attend his weekly worship service.

They are skilled at turning and twisting scripture. I should know.

 

[DebChris]

Gorgias;14634419:

I noticed. What an odd response to my challenges to your position…

OK, you’ve said this a few times, and my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I’ve never heard it said officially (as in “for the universal Church” or even "for the Churches in the United States) that the requirement is to attend Mass first

. Yes, it’s true that one still has the obligation to attend Mass, even though he attend a non-Catholic service… but it’s the “first” part that’s piqued my interest. Do you have a citation or reference for that claim?

And, as I mentioned (and still maintain!), the grace of the sacraments has never been claimed to include “increase in personal knowledge.” (Oh, yeah, sure… we can talk about the ‘gifts of the Holy Spirit’ as received at Confirmation, but that’s quite a stretch, if you’re claiming that the Holy Spirit defends you from misunderstandings of doctrine. That’s nothing that the Church teaches… )

And that’s not what’s in play, either. We’re not talking “know your faith so that you can enter into apologetic discourse at a Protestant service”… we’re just talking “know your faith so that you can recognize conflicting teachings when you encounter them.”
I presumed that you were a practicing Catholic, which gives you certain protections.

I don’t have a particular reference. There was a time when Catholics could not belong to the YMCA. I received permission in High School to belong to a club that was associated with the YMCA, thereby allowing me to participate in their non-denominational camp services.
When I was a young girl living in Japan, I joined my mother as her Catholic women’s group visited a local Buddhist temple, purely as observers.
As part of high school religious education, my class went to a Lutheran service.
It was as a Freshman in a Benedictine College that the Abbot told me of the Church’s teaching regarding attendance at non-Catholic services.
While I don’t have any specific references, pastors at other churches to which I have belonged have repeated the teaching. I have been encouraged to attend services with separated brothers and sisters.
In the process, I have met many people of different denominations of deep faith. They know in whom they believe, even if they are weak in doctrinal truths.

Where I lived in WI, there was a yearly pulpit exchange between denominations. Obviously, the Catholic priest remained present throughout the Catholic Mass as he is the one person who can perform the consecration.

It would seem that you are more interested in quibbling about fine points than I am. Scripture warns against such things. I never claim to be a theologian. nor has it been necessary. I trust God to keep me safe.

I have encountered more attacks against my faith in everyday life than I have by sharing Faith in ecumenical gatherings. We live in a very secular world, where I have needed to explain what I believe starting as early as first grade. What I was learning from the Baltimore Catechism at the time did not always satisfy a skeptical audience.
I very much trust in the power of prayer.

Obviously the more I read from spiritual writers such as Theresa of Avila and others, the more insight I receive. When I am discussing my faith with anybody, I still ask God to give me light, to know what to say in response, or to simply remain silent.

 

[Gorgias]

It would seem that you are more interested in quibbling about fine points than I am.

No, not really. My concern is that you seem to want to tell all Catholics that it’s ok to expose themselves to teachings opposed to the Church and to ecclesial communities that are interested in proselytism rather than fellowship. While it might be ok for you, that doesn’t mean it’s ok for all.

You also made a broad statement about a Church precept (“you must go to Mass before attending a Protestant service”) that just isn’t so (even if some individual Catholics may have told you to do it that way). Again: not a quibble, but a request not to misrepresent the precepts of the Church. “My pastor said to do this” is different than “the Church commands us to do this”…

Scripture warns against such things.

Scripture also warns us not to do those things that might lead other Christians (who might not be as strong in their faith) into sin.

 

[DebChris]

No, not really. My concern is that you seem to want to tell all Catholics that it’s ok to expose themselves to teachings opposed to the Church and to ecclesial communities that are interested in proselytism rather than fellowship. While it might be ok for you, that doesn’t mean it’s ok for all.

You also made a broad statement about a Church precept (“you must go to Mass before attending a Protestant service”) that just isn’t so (even if some individual Catholics may have told you to do it that way). Again: not a quibble, but a request not to misrepresent the precepts of the Church. “My pastor said to do this” is different than “the Church commands us to do this”…

Scripture also warns us not to do those things that might lead other Christians (who might not be as strong in their faith) into sin.

I said the Church allows an individual to attend non-Catholic services provided that they first attend Mass. I never said it was a commandment. I have also stated repeatedly that if a person was uncomfortable that they should leave, and there was never a reason to return.
I put more stock in faith than in personal knowledge. There are definitely places that I do not go. There are places where a person simply finds themselves by virtue of vocation or lifestyle. I speak from a first person point of view because that is how adults relate.
Few of us are surrounded daily by other Catholics. We do need to learn how to defend our Faith on a daily basis. As others have said, return the invitation.

I watched a rerun of Fulton Sheen on evangelization. It is interesting in that episode that he pointed to the greatest mistake many people make is beginning with the Bible. He was speaking about evangelizing those who come from other religions. He spoke about the importance of knowing that they each have their own religious text, to know where they come from. In order to evangelize those from other religious, begin with what we have in common. Know the other side.

It was recently reported that a certain sect performed a “pseudo-ordaination” of priestesses. That mocks Catholic teaching. The pastor at one parish also forbade gathering at a certain place with a former member. That is obedience to the Catholic Church. That is not what the OP is asking about, nor anything close to what I have ever suggested.

 

[Gorgias]

I said the Church allows an individual to attend non-Catholic services provided that they first attend Mass.

Right. And it’s that “provided that they first attend Mass” part that I’m questioning. The order doesn’t matter… and I just asked you to substantiate that claim that you’re asserting that the Church makes.

That is not what the OP is asking about, nor anything close to what I have ever suggested.

Umm… pardon? Non sequitur?

In any case… have a lovely day, Deb.

 

[animalis]

“But because perfect justice requires more than avoiding evil, but doing good, he says something about doing good in the exercise of this ministry. The first good is against evil teachings; the second against evil conduct; the third against an evil intention. Against evil teaching, which must be avoided, they perform the good of manifesting the truth. In regard to this he says, by the open statement of the truth: as if to say, we do not lose heart but, avoiding evil, we walk and act in the manifestation of the truth, i.e., we manifest the pure truth: “For this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth” (Jn. 18:37); “Those who show me forth shall have everlasting life” (Sir. 24:31, Vulgate)” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Com on 2 Cor, n. 120)

Holy Mother Church enters into the protestant’s arena to manifest the truth, by a “dialogue of salvation.” (cf. Ut unum sint, 35) A dialogue, not a mere “horizontal level” (cf. ibid), but what is God doing with us to make us one. This vertical level requires church authority.

 

[thistle]

I said the Church allows an individual to attend non-Catholic services provided that they first attend Mass. I never said it was a commandment. I have also stated repeatedly that if a person was uncomfortable that they should leave, and there was never a reason to return.
I put more stock in faith than in personal knowledge. There are definitely places that I do not go. There are places where a person simply finds themselves by virtue of vocation or lifestyle. I speak from a first person point of view because that is how adults relate.
Few of us are surrounded daily by other Catholics. We do need to learn how to defend our Faith on a daily basis. As others have said, return the invitation.

I watched a rerun of Fulton Sheen on evangelization. It is interesting in that episode that he pointed to the greatest mistake many people make is beginning with the Bible. He was speaking about evangelizing those who come from other religions. He spoke about the importance of knowing that they each have their own religious text, to know where they come from. In order to evangelize those from other religious, begin with what we have in common. Know the other side.

It was recently reported that a certain sect performed a “pseudo-ordaination” of priestesses. That mocks Catholic teaching. The pastor at one parish also forbade gathering at a certain place with a former member. That is obedience to the Catholic Church. That is not what the OP is asking about, nor anything close to what I have ever suggested.

This is not a correct statement. I have searched for any Church documents regarding this and I can’t find any. If you can direct us to a document that backs up your assertion I would be happy to read it.

 

[DebChris]

This is not a correct statement. I have searched for any Church documents regarding this and I can’t find any. If you can direct us to a document that backs up your assertion I would be happy to read it.

Stated another way, your Sunday obligation is not revoked. Talk to your pastor. My information has come directly from abbots and parish priests. I have even accompanied a spiritual director to a weekday Quaker meeting.
There are many ways in which to be involved in interdenominational organizations and activities. My continued prayer is the one Our Lord prayed before his trial and crucifixion “That they be one.” I continue to pray for Christian unity.

 

[Gorgias]

Stated another way, your Sunday obligation is not revoked.

Absolutely!

Attendance at a non-Catholic service does not fulfill the obligation to attend Sunday Mass.

(It’s the “you must go to Mass first” part that’s not a requirement of the Church. Praiseworthy, perhaps, but not mandated. )

 

[thistle]

Stated another way, your Sunday obligation is not revoked. Talk to your pastor. My information has come directly from abbots and parish priests. I have even accompanied a spiritual director to a weekday Quaker meeting.
There are many ways in which to be involved in interdenominational organizations and activities. My continued prayer is the one Our Lord prayed before his trial and crucifixion “That they be one.” I continue to pray for Christian unity.

I agree with you on that. However, you said that you must go to Mass first. That is not correct.