Attending Protestant "ordination" is sinful?

[GraceDK]

There is a parallel here to same sex “marriage” especially since the person being ordained is a woman. The woman herself views it as a sacrament so personally I would not attend something that is blatantly against my own faith.
Think of it as a marriage between her and the bride of Christ, the Church.
eeewwwww

How you make the comparison is unfathomable.
The woman, who in this case is Protestant, views it not as a sacrament, because the Protestants in mainline churches dont even believe that ordination is a sacrament.
Indeed the woman is the Bride of Christ as are you and I, regardless of our sex, if we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[GraceDK]

No - attending something that simulates a valid sacrament (and anything calling itself an ‘ordination’ surely does so at least to an extent) causes scandal.

No, Its not a sacrament. The Protestants are firmly against calling their ordination a sacrament. Okay? The OP might be causing scandal to you, but not to me, to the priest who was quoted a few posts back, nor to any other Catholic who knows Church teaching in this area.

By attending you are giving the impression that you believe it to be the equivalent (not exactly the same, but the equivalent) of the Catholic sacrament of Holy Orders.

I fail to see how you reach that point. Right know you give the “impression” that you are ignorant and in that way you cause more scandal than anyone who attends the Protestant rites of leadership in a Protestant church.

In exactly the same manner as by receiving communion in another denomination you are causing scandal by giving the impression that you believe that other denomination’s communion to be the equivalent of ours.

No. Actually its not the same at all. Where do people like you get this stuff? I can tell you because I have grown up in a country where Catholicism is absolutely minority, that I have spoken to my bishop about this. To receive the Last Supper is indeed causing scandal if a Catholic does it in Evangelical Church. But a Catholic observing the not sinful rites in other churches in order to be with friends or family, or even just to see what is happening, only causes scandal to those like you who wish to be scandalized.

It doesn’t matter that that other denomination only sees a symbolic value to their communion, or has other different beliefs about it, whereas Catholics see much more in ours. The fact is by receiving you are implying an equivalence. So it also doesn’t matter that that other denomination doesn’t hold the same beliefs about their rite of ordination as Catholics do about ours, you shouldn’t attend.

You are ranting and ranting on. Look you don’t have to ever enter a house of prayer of another church than the Catholic one… But I beg you. Do not pretend to speak for the Catholic Church on this when all you do is spead your ignorance and prejudize.

Attending ceremonies of other religions is, at least in some circumstances, a different matter. Christianity really has no similar ceremony to, say, the Bar Mitzvah or the bris of Judaism. So there is less possibility of scandal or of anyone reading an implication of equivalence into your attendance.

Thats your personal oppinion. The Jews rejected their own messiah and are reading from the Law of the Torah during their rites of passage, instead of recognizing the confirmation, which is a similar rite if you are into comparing rituals. If anyone wants to be offended there, they can be, because the Jews use what they have, but cannot use a faith they dont have. Same with Evangelicals. Its the same… for some reason you are just scared and scandalized by Evangelicals, so you wish the Church to put restrictions on us who really live out the fact that they are our brothers and sisters in Christ

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

If the Church says this person should not go, then fine. But please, can we stop using phrases like “charade” and “totally invalid” to label this event? I mean recognize there comes a certain point where you go beyond faithfulness and into disrespect. I would pray that we all recognize people by their earned titles (for example, “Minister” or “Rabbi”) whether or not we have theological disagreements.

 

[Moore11]

How you make the comparison is unfathomable.
The woman, who in this case is Protestant, views it not as a sacrament, because the Protestants in mainline churches dont even believe that ordination is a sacrament.
Indeed the woman is the Bride of Christ as are you and I, regardless of our sex, if we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Well, I honestly don’t agree and would not go. That is my opinion, and the opinion of the apologists on this site. If that is something that cannot be fathomed by you then I guess you win the debate with your view on God, the Body of Christ, Women ordinations and the such. I mean, there can be no conversation if one side cannot fathom the others point now can there.

I can fathom your opinion. I don’t agree with it, I think it is weak but I can see your point and how someone can honestly have your opinion and be good intentions and motives.

Again, if it were a homosexual marriage then the people would not view it as a sacrament but they would be attempting something the Church DOES view as a sacrament. One should not attend. Same thing here.
2 lesbians want to get married in front of Gaia with a state issued licence would not say they are attempting a “sacrament” or maybe they would, either way it isn’t, and it should not be given the social status of one.

Some of it does depend on what this woman is being ordained to. If it is as close to Catholicism as the Anglicans that is one thing, but there are many different denominations and some of them downright hostile to Catholicism and Christ in general. It can go beyond “they understand God in the best way they know how” to some pretty odd and damaging theological areas. And should not we speak for the Truth of the Church God founded 2000 years ago and continues to this day? Or shall we just sit idly by so as not to hurt feelings and give the impression we are the holiest of all words (tolerant) and let Christ be mocked by the lies of today?

 

[PatriceA]

How you make the comparison is unfathomable.
The woman, who in this case is Protestant, views it not as a sacrament, because the Protestants in mainline churches dont even believe that ordination is a sacrament.
Indeed the woman is the Bride of Christ as are you and I, regardless of our sex, if we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Its not unfathomable. An invalid sacrament is an invalid sacrament, be it a marriage between two homosexuals or the ordination of woman in a protestant faith. Doesn’t matter if the two homosexuals think their marriage is a valid sacrament or that the woman thinks her ordination is a sacrament. It matters what the Catholic Church thinks and we are not to attend invalid sacraments as it may cause scandal. There is a time a place to evangelize our fellow Christian brothers and sisters, attending an invalid sacrament as defined by the Catholic Church is not the place nor the time. Invite them over for dinner, go to their birthday parties, evangelize at those occasions.

 

[Bookcat]

Taking as a background both the comments and opinions of the Catholic Answers Apologist and those of the Professor that was quoted above (note he too throws in the big problem of a Catholic being ordained in a Protestant community – not sure that is what was going on here -but I highlight that point there of his)

An additional aspect to consider is – is the fact that it is a she who is seeking to be ordained. Is this an Anglican/Episcopal “female priest ordination”?

(something that the Church is very concerned about - furthering impediments to our full communion).

 

[triumphguy]

Fr. McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum University, mentioned the case of a lapsed catholic being ordained a protestant minister because then the person would be guilty of Apostasy.

That is a public renunciation of Catholic teaching and something no Catholic should be present at.

 

[Cristiano]

Before answering the original question I want to ask people: “What would you say to a protestant if he were to tell you that he decided to devote his life to Christ above anything else and if you would listen to him when he makes that solemn promise”

 

[dskysmine]

Hello all,
You seem to forget one of the most important sacraments that we necessarily attend whenever we go to a Protestant Service, the Eucharist. It is not by being present that we profess our validation of the “supposed” sacrament it is by our actions towards it. In the same way we can attend a service where Protestants have a Last Supper when we are invited, we can attend a service where there is an ordination of a friend. It doesnt mean that we think it is valid, and the Fr. response pretty much makes it clear. I also dare anyone finding any Vatican documentation that purports to prevent Catholic presence in such event, because you will be fairly surprised.

 

[Cristiano]

Its not unfathomable. An invalid sacrament is an invalid sacrament, be it a marriage between two homosexuals or the ordination of woman in a protestant faith…

I think that you are really mixing things up. If you state that it is not a sacrament and the other person states that it is not a sacrament then it is not an invalid sacrament. If I were to follow your logic I would say that those catechists teaching the children to receive first communion are attempting an invalid sacrament.

Problems arise when it would or could be considered a sacrament because in that situation you could create scandal.

 

[heaintheavy]

Its not a matter of personal opinion, its a matter of Church teachings concerning invalid sacraments and that a faithful Catholic should not attend such events. We are certainly allowed to attend weddings and baptisms in the other faiths if they are recognised as valid, but not if they are invalid. A protestant ordination is not a valid sacrament recognized by the Catholic Church and thus we as Catholic should not attend. Either you agree with the Church teachings or you don’t. But its not a matter of personal opinion.

How is a protestant wedding a valid enough sacrament to attend, but not a protestant ordination?
Do you know the reasons why one is considered okay, but apparently not the other?
How/why do they differ in okay-ness?

 

[Bookcat]

How is a protestant wedding a valid enough sacrament to attend, but not a protestant ordination?
Do you know the reasons why one is considered okay, but apparently not the other?
How/why do they differ in okay-ness?

I will address the question of validity only here.

A marriage between two baptized Protestant unmarried persons of the opposite gender (if unbaptized then it would be a natural marriage) – is presumed to be valid.

Marriage and Baptism are two Sacraments that exist validly among many Protestants.

Ordination is a Sacrament that requires a Bishop with valid orders himself…(and a male…not female canidate) …such as exist in the Orthodox Churches --but not in the Protestant Communities (though some excepts can exist in terms of involvement of a Bishop with valid Orders and intention etc).

See the answers from the Catholic Ans. Apologist above forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9318364&postcount=4

 

[PatriceA]

I think that you are really mixing things up. If you state that it is not a sacrament and the other person states that it is not a sacrament then it is not an invalid sacrament. If I were to follow your logic I would say that those catechists teaching the children to receive first communion are attempting an invalid sacrament.

Problems arise when it would or could be considered a sacrament because in that situation you could create scandal.

I’m not stating anything. The Church is stating there are occasions in the other faiths that are invalid or not sacraments as we define them as Catholics, and thus we should not attend such events. We should not attend a Lutheran First Communion any more than we should attend a Lutheran ordination. There are baptisms in other faiths we should not attend either, Jehovah Witnesses being one of them.

Here is one link that explains such situations further: catholic.com/quickquestions/as-a-catholic-may-i-witness-my-grandsons-lutheran-first-communion

 

[Cristiano]

I’m not stating anything. The Church is stating there are occasions in the other faiths that are invalid or not sacraments as we define them as Catholics, and thus we should not attend such events. We should not attend a Lutheran First Communion any more than we should attend a Lutheran ordination. There are baptisms in other faiths we should not attend either, Jehovah Witnesses being one of them.

Here is one link that explains such situations further: catholic.com/quickquestions/as-a-catholic-may-i-witness-my-grandsons-lutheran-first-communion

I think that you are misrepresenting what is stated in a post on a web site by a no name poster. The answer says that the writer could not recommend doing something, that it is significantly different from saying that it should not happen.
The Church mandates that we form our conscience because She cannot and will not document all the possible scenarios that could affect the morality of a choice. We must always remember that there are three distinct conditions for a behavior to be moral, circumstances are as critical as intent and moral objectivity of the action itself and they change. I think that in forums like this it is better to help the individual to figure out the circumstances instead of saying that something is sinful across the border when it is not true.

 

[PatriceA]

I think that you are misrepresenting what is stated in a post on a web site by a no name poster. The answer says that the writer could not recommend doing something, that it is significantly different from saying that it should not happen.
The Church mandates that we form our conscience because She cannot and will not document all the possible scenarios that could affect the morality of a choice. We must always remember that there are three distinct conditions for a behavior to be moral, circumstances are as critical as intent and moral objectivity of the action itself and they change. I think that in forums like this it is better to help the individual to figure out the circumstances instead of saying that something is sinful across the border when it is not true.

Well you can see it that way. Me, I seek out the advice of those more knowledgeable on Catholic teachings, including my priest and spiritual advisor, on situations such as these. I am not one for discounting those more informed in the faith than I am, and many sources that have been questioned on subjects such as this thread have advised NOT attending such events. I for one will listen to their advice. You can certainly disregard such advice and proceed as you see fit. But I think its also our duty as Catholics to inform our fellow Catholics on such matters and what the experts have advised for others in the same situation. Its always up to the individual to discern their own situation. But its irresponsible to tell other Catholics to disregard such advice and just do as they please.

 

[triumphguy]

The priest I quoted from, Fr. McNamara teaches liturgy here: Regina Apostolorum University

The Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum was officially founded by the Congregation for Catholic Education on 15 September 1993. Pope John Paul II gave permission for the institution to style itself as a Pontifical University and on 3 September 2004 it received the “definitive decree of canonical status”.

The Mission of the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum is:

**To train Christian leaders, especially clergy and to develop a rigorous research in order to create a cultural current of thought that permeats society with the Christian spirit, offering a response, both theoretical and existential, to today’s persons, in full communion with the Magisterium of the Church. **

I would imagine his opinion is valid.

 

[GraceDK]

Its not unfathomable. An invalid sacrament is an invalid sacrament, be it a marriage between two homosexuals or the ordination of woman in a protestant faith. Doesn’t matter if the two homosexuals think their marriage is a valid sacrament or that the woman thinks her ordination is a sacrament. It matters what the Catholic Church thinks and we are not to attend invalid sacraments as it may cause scandal. There is a time a place to evangelize our fellow Christian brothers and sisters, attending an invalid sacrament as defined by the Catholic Church is not the place nor the time. Invite them over for dinner, go to their birthday parties, evangelize at those occasions.

On this whole thread I have yet to see any binding Church document that says I cannot attend a ceremony like this in a Protestant service. You give me your subjective feeling and presents it as Church doctrine. THAT is what causes scandal.

Again the logic is also missing. If they do not believe its a sacrament, how can we say its an invalid sacrament? It never was a sacrament, alright?
Few years ago I witnessed both a “child dedication” and a confirmation in an Evangelical Church. Both of these were not believed to be sacraments by the people who were taking part in them. They didn’t even believe they would effect anything in the latter case.

If your subjective laws, which you like to project on others, were in fact sealed by the Church I would have to shun my family and friends in order not to cause scandal… Yet I am sure they would be scandalized only then, and they would rightly be.
Your world is very narrow… please dont try to narrow God.

 

[LilyM]

Before answering the original question I want to ask people: “What would you say to a protestant if he were to tell you that he decided to devote his life to Christ above anything else and if you would listen to him when he makes that solemn promise”

The same thing that I would say to that Protestant if he said to me ‘we are fellow Christians, and I want you to receive communion alongside me in my church - and I want to receive communion alongside you in your Catholic church - to demonstrate that fellowship’.

 

[LilyM]

How is a protestant wedding a valid enough sacrament to attend, but not a protestant ordination?
Do you know the reasons why one is considered okay, but apparently not the other?
How/why do they differ in okay-ness?

In marriage it is actually the couple themselves who are ministers of the sacrament, one to the other, and the priest or deacon or other celebrant are merely there to witness and bless the union.

An ordination is different in that a minister (a bishop in Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism - presumably an authority figure such as a pastor in other denominations) is conferring something upon the candidate for Holy Orders that the candidate cannot and does ot confer upon themselves.

If this is not the case then why bother? Why not just start the candidate on their pastoral duties without a ceremony, especially one called an ‘ordination’?

A Pope is not ordained, he is installed, because his office is installed on him by virtue of his election and not in the special way that deacons and priests are called to Holy Orders.

See, the candidate might not call it a sacrament, but I’m willing to bet that they think something incredibly special, of equal import to the sacraments of baptism or marriage, happens to their souls during that ceremony. Something that sets them apart in the same way a baptised or married person is set apart from those who do not receive those sacraments. So the real difference is likely to be one of semantics only.

 

[PatriceA]

On this whole thread I have yet to see any binding Church document that says I cannot attend a ceremony like this in a Protestant service. You give me your subjective feeling and presents it as Church doctrine. THAT is what causes scandal.

Again the logic is also missing. If they do not believe its a sacrament, how can we say its an invalid sacrament? It never was a sacrament, alright?
Few years ago I witnessed both a “child dedication” and a confirmation in an Evangelical Church. Both of these were not believed to be sacraments by the people who were taking part in them. They didn’t even believe they would effect anything in the latter case.

If your subjective laws, which you like to project on others, were in fact sealed by the Church I would have to shun my family and friends in order not to cause scandal… Yet I am sure they would be scandalized only then, and they would rightly be.
Your world is very narrow… please dont try to narrow God.

Again, not my own personal teachings or feelings. I’m not projecting anything on to anybody. You are free to reject what the experts are advising. Me, I chose to follow their advice and nobody said being Catholic was ever easy. Sometimes doing the right thing in a situation seems “narrowminded” but its still the right thing to do. Sometimes family will not understand why we Catholics do what we do.

If you feel so strongly about attending such occasions, discuss it with your priest or a spiritual advisor, as I have done. Seek out their advice and proceed as they direct you. Sometimes we as a married couple have had to turn down invites to ceremonies that are not supported by the Catholic Church in other denominations. Sometimes there have been hard feelings, but I don’t live out my faith based on what may make other people happy or unhappy. I certainly hope my family and friends respect my decisions just as I respect their decisions in the faith they chose to believe. I love my family and friends that are of other faiths and religions. There is a time to support them and there are times when its not appropriate to support them.

Again, ask your priest. Your situation may be different than mine, but I’m going to have to go with what my priest and spiritual director advises rather than someone that calls me “narrow”.